So, is it logical to assume there is no Truth? Atheism and theism are both as dependent on the individual as how much one likes a certain ice cream flavor? We can stop all the conversion?
Neither did I. That’s not what I meant.
On the one hand, when I lost faith, I was glad to be free of the accountability that made me feel guilty. On the other hand, the longer I experienced that ‘freedom,’ the more I came to the realization that I was just screwing things up. The sort of freedom I was exercising did not make me feel free, but I did not have the motivation or the awareness of any alternatives that could free me from that (having rejected God). It wasn’t that I needed others to make me feel guilty. It was that I missed the encouragement of others with similar values (the values I had before I lost faith). Wouldn’t it have been nice if your dad had not pressured you to watch that movie… if he had instead supported your values? Wouldn’t it have made things easier if there had been someone with you to help you stand up to your dad and motivate you to keep practicing your values? Do you see that support and accountability has nothing to do with making you feel guilty? That’s what I missed.
The togetherness I missed was the sort of togetherness that encouraged eachother toward excellence and growth, rather than toward stagnation or degeneration.
f12hte… hm. Well, I think there does need to be a revival within the church, and you made some other good observations. “Besides, why should it matter to God if T. says that there is no God?” – why would it matter to those who love you if you said they don’t exist (not that God shares their imperfections)?
– tortoise
You want to get specific and really dig into this?
(I need to clarify upfront that I’m not a Mormon, but I’m pretty sure you knew that.) Even after we come to know God, we are not instantaneously perfect and able to conquer the whole universe of temptation. It is like we are babies, starting all over again – this time with God. The first time, we learned everything on our own and from the world. This time, we learn it with God. The first step you take is not into a sprint. And the goal of perfection, of love, is God – the only way to reach it, is in unity with Him. You’ll never be God… just loved by Him. I know, I know, it all sounds so cliche… which… also… sounds so cliche… as does that. But, it’s true.
Well, I agree that just wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true… but neither does it make it false. Not all “believers” believe just because they want to think it’s true, or to please others. Many have very good reason to believe (not in Mormonism, but in the truth).
Getting off-line.
Thank you for sharing some of your life experiences. I found the masturbation conversation very interesting. My experience was the complete opposite. When we were living in Oxford, UK, my father, the minister, could see that I had been drawing crosses on my right hand… He knew exactly why without even asking. I had discovered masturbation that year and was EXTREMELY guilty about it. I mean… really bad. I had always had a very strong guilt complex.
Without asking me anything, my father took me for an afternoon walk through Iffley village, where we lived in Oxford. He noted that he saw the cross on my hand. I was embarrassed. He explained to me that it is ok. It is a natural thing. He told me of how, when he was a boy, the church told him that masturbation causes serious acne and breakouts on your face and will eventually lead to insanity! We then laughed because he said that this was really shitty for the poor guys with acne in the church youth group. We then crossed our eyes, made dumb faces and joked about some guy masturbating his way to insanity. So basically my loving father told me that it is “ok”, but try to keep my mind pure. Whatever that meant.
-You didn’t feel too guilty because you understood it was natural.
-I felt extremely guilty because I understood it to be unnatural.
-You were then told it was unnatural and that it was wrong.
-I was then told it was natural and I wasn’t to feel guilty.
What total opposite situations.
I’m so sorry for the absolutely hypocritical response you were given by your Mormon father.
I don’t know why masturbation would be of concern when the real important issue is how many hundreds of wives you’ll be screwing when (after you die) you get to have your own planet! 
Tortoise, I don’t think teaching a kid sexual purity and stuff like tithing (giving in recognition that it all came from God) is inhumane or manipulative in and of itself. It is the responsibility of adult caregivers to instill values in children. The world is in the shape it is in because parents are neglecting that responsibility. You can teach purity without giving a kid a guilt trip, and you can teach tithing (giving back to God) without using manipulation.
That you got kicked out is just insane to me, though. Makes my blood boil.
Read my discussion with Ned Flanders in his “Does God love you?” thread.
I understand your reaction.
You distrust all churches, so you think it is manipulation to freely give money to churches.
But not all churches are untrustworthy. Many churches do awesome things for their community with the tithe money, which is exactly what tithing is for. The church is the hands and feet of God, and tithing is one way of enabling those hands and feet to do God’s work. You would be surprised what percentage of work in the community is done by churches.
The most important thing is to find a church you can trust. Don’t tithe to a church you don’t trust. Giving is not equivalent to being gullible.
Sexual intimacy between a man and woman is a gift straight from heaven. The more we take it away from that “between a man and a woman” scenario, the more the gift is tainted, and the less we get out of the gift as it was intended. You want to get the most out of this gift, stay within the “between a man and a woman” scenario. To a child, I would say that your body is not just yours to explore. When you become united to your wife, you become one flesh… and you are eachother’s to explore. There is almost nothing more beautiful than this. It is extrordinarily rare because it is the standard (for a while, not just ‘these days’) to fiddle with the gift before Christmas, so to speak.
Nothing wrong with those desires, of course. But messing with a gift that great doesn’t just ruin the awesomeness of the gift – it has other consequences which chain-react into our need to affiliate, ability to empathize – into our relationships with eachother and God. That’s why sexual purity is so important.
No one should ever be made to feel ashamed that they are checking out how their body works, especially a part of their body associated with pleasure – of course it is natural to be drawn to do this. But they should be taught that it is something best explored together with the one they will spend the rest of their life with. That’s what I will teach my sons. But, if I somehow walk in on them in the middle of it, I’m not going to give them a guilt trip. I went through puberty, and I won’t soon forget it.
Their thoughts when they do the exploring… should be only for their spouse, from the very beginning. This increases the greatness of the gift. Don’t believe me? Try it. It is horrible coming to the realization that God is as close as your thoughts when all of your thoughts are caked in filth. But – if all of your thoughts of a sexual nature are just in enjoyment of your spouse – it isn’t so awkward when you come to know God, because that’s a gift from God.
And if it’s too late and your mind is already crudded up with impurity… just think of it as a mountain God can move… see it as a challenge… and don’t let it bum you out.