Wow. That is a crazy story. Thanks for sharing it. What did you learn from it? How did it change you?
Tortoise, Your experience is interesting. I don’t know much about Mormonism, except that it is a cult (some stuff about Joseph Smith and stuff). I have experience as someone who grew up as a preacher’s kid (not Mormon), lost faith and spent some time as an atheist (in your shoes)… so I know exactly what you’re talking about… thought I knew that God does not answer prayers (does not exist in order to answer them)… and I was wrong. In order to conclude that He doesn’t answer prayers – you’d have to admit He exists. The only thing you can really conclude right now (if you admit He exists) is that God has not answered your prayers yet (or He’s answered them with “wait” or “no”).
By the way, I answered you in Aporia’s thread on why God doesn’t just tell him He exists… but it was quickly buried with a new page in that thread… you may have missed it.
Thank you Tortoise. I wonder why I find your story so uplifting. I guess its because it reminds me so much of myself. But how can that be when I am a Christian and was never a Mormon? Who knows? More research required. Live well and prosper. javascript:emoticon(‘=D>’)
Applause
Mkay. Fair enough, tortoise. Still, the only thing you can really conclude right now (if you hold that it is possible that He exists) is that God has not answered your prayers yet (or He’s answered them with “wait” or “no”). If you hold that He doesn’t exist, you hold it without proof.
f12hte – well, Christians and Mormons are both humans, it’s not that weird that you could relate to tortoise’ story. He prob’ly thought he was praying to the same God you pray to, though your concepts may be different. What was so uplifting about that story, in your opinion? He never came to truly know God, he gets more sympathy from his dad’s girlfriend than from his dad, he got kicked out of the Mormon’s house (his only example of ‘faith’) over something he shouldn’t have gotten kicked out over, his dad was unsupportive of his values, all he ever knew was defeat and never overcame anything… that’s a bummer of a story. The only happy thing about it is that the main character is still alive… and so the story is not at an end.
Is bitterness and recrimination the only thing you’ve taken from the experience? If I still felt that way about my experience as a homeless person, I imagine I’d still be homeless. I can remember the experience for what it was and take both the good for what it was and the bad for what it was without desiring to return to that state.
Now you’re speaking my language! For me, that is the great conundrum – I find that religion teaches many of those things best but religion also has a lot of junk I don’t particularly care for. So how to get at that juicy center without biting through all the other stuff.
I hope things work out for you and Tortoise.
Thanks. I’ve found an answer that works quite well for me but I wouldn’t necessarily pass it onto others. The quest for understanding though, that is what is eternal, no matter what tradition is at play.
Well, Ichthy, you ask a very good question and it is something that I should look into to find out more about myself and the spiritual path that I follow. I find it confusing that I should find the story uplifting too. But I honestly felt good about the story. (Of course, I enjoy disaster movies too…hey how bout that “Left Behind†series.) Maybe it was that I thought it was courageous to just be so frank and to the point about ones life.
And you’d have to agree a life of passion is a lot more fun to hear about than that of some apathetic Christian…we have so many of those. Wouldn’t it be better if some of those mesmerized zombie Christians would become vociferous atheists? They would be EXPLORING rather than SNORING. It could be that I’m glad that T. is an alive atheist rather than a dead Christian. Maybe you hit the nail right on the head…he is still alive and making his way, despite so much shit in his life. Yep, maybe I feel uplifted because he survived it all and has had some fun along the way.
Maybe it was because of the way he embraced the fellowship of the church. He had to be really accepting to throw in his lot with those pesky Mormons. He had to really love people, the way that Christ taught us. And I did enjoy the part about proselytizing; reminds me of when I would walk out in the street at red lights and pound on folks’ windows until they rolled down to accept one of the Bibles I was passing out. And speaking of passing out….his sex and drug debauchery reminds me of my own. I look back on that often now and I regret very few of those episodes; most are pleasant memories. I learned so so very much. Maybe I consider it a miracle that I survived those days of having “too much funâ€. If they were evil sins, I would think that I would have a guilty conscience, but for the most part I see them as stepping stones to where I am now. Now family and the joy of learning have taken over. My former exploits would interfere with the new ways I‘ve found to get my jollies. But I can still get a kick out of remembering those days.
Besides, why should it matter to God if T. says that there is no God? I think God looks at a lot more than what a person says. I think He even looks beyond what a person does. I think he scores high on what a person tries to do. I think he gives extra points for good intentions.
Very few points are subtracted for failure when a person tries his best. I think God likes to accept atheists into heaven just so he can see the look on their faces when they find out that he really does exist. Also, if Jesus is any guide with his “whitewashed sepulcher†speech, I suppose God would get a real kick out of seeing the look on the faces of the overly self righteous when they see atheists in heaven.
I know a lot of what I said here clashes with a lot of Christian Doctrine. But I have to agree with what that Kung Fu guy says above in this thread. Ya just gotta bite through all the crap to get to the good, useful, fun, part of religion. Now that is really deep. It rings so true to me. Thanks for asking me the question Ichthy…I think I understand somewhat better now why I found T’s story uplifting. Hey., I know! Lets start a “Let’s Talk About Tortoise†thread.
I wish we could start something like that. It would be amazing. That is one thing I love about my community. How close and family like it is. I wish I could have the tight nit feeling without the religious extras.
Start our own commune?
That would be so rad.
What would happen if all the ILP members got together? That would be surreal.
Maybe this isn’t such a good idea.
I think we’d actually be fast friends.
Sure, there would be a lot of disagreements, yelling across the room (bar?) and all that. But the sort that is fun as opposed to actually belligerent.
We should organize a think tank. I’m dead serious.
Really? I think it is as fun to argue in person as it is online. Sure there are a lot more pauses as I try to recall a quote and sources are a lot less definite, but the flow is also more organic and I think there is a lot to be said for that. Less polished, but a lot of fun. Plus you can buy each other rounds. There is a lot to be said for that.
I think it would be awesome. It would make all the discussions on here take on a new angle, I think. Plus, it would be really nice to meet people I can talk openly to. Smart people, I mean.
Sigh.
I wish this could be a reality.
Sorry for steering the thread off track, by the way.
I don’t think it’s possible. The crux of a good community is a passion for something that everyone in the community agrees on. It’s impossible to fake passion just to get the community. The “religious extras” are the reason the community exists in the first place.
Of course, the “extras” don’t have to be “religious” but they have to be “extras” that everyone feels passionate about.
It also helps if these same “extras” are things that other people disagree with or don’t really care about. This makes the community huddle together tighter. I think this is why Christianity explodes under persecution but tends to drift aimlessly in an free society.
Great thread. Beautiful story Tortoise.
Well we could start it on philosophy. Not everyone cares about that.
And don’t contradict yourself by first saying it isn’t possible, and then it is.
I never said I didn’t want a superiority complex…I just want to be rid of god.
And in the end, this is just a wish. I’m not being remotely serious about starting something like this.
If you have enough passion for it, I suppose it could work.
What I meant is that starting out to create a community for the purpose of having a community rarely works. Community is usually a side effect of finding common purpose in something else. So, strong communities certainly exist but I don’t think they can be started from the basis you started with, i.e. a desire to have community.
I don’t think you will be.
I know. I’m talking in hypothetical terms as well. I could have been clearer about that though.
Yeah, I can relate to that, too. That is, if the experience you want again includes the level of empathy you felt back then. When I was an atheist, I missed all that stuff. I knew I was going down-hill and couldn’t stop it by myself. I missed the accountability of being around others with the same values – the motivation to maintain those values. I wanted to reproduce that sort of thing, but knew it would be a total sham without God.
This is already a community, though it is different than one maintained off-line.