Well, it’d be a lot easier to understand if you used paragraphs, or if i had slightly less of a hangover… but a lot of evidence does actually point to the fact that the human race stopped evolving after the invention of agriculture.
If you’re right about humans not evolving any more, well we’re doomed.
But I reckon we still are, its just too slow to be recognised. It may have slowed down a huge amount because of our ability to (usually) effectively change our surroundings to benefit the growth of human population, but its still there. For instance, because we eat more and more refined foods which don’t need massive powerful jaws, apparently our jaws are getting smaller (which is why more and more of us suffer braces?!!). Nice thought, but probably a pile of shite.
just because human as a biological entity is not evolving does not means that evolution as a process stops. Ask yourself what a human is, one definition could be a coded self replicating information bundle in a molecular medium. Evolution acts upon the genes that “store”/are this information causing them to compete in such a way that only the “best” genes survive, whether in a collective group or not. Ben seems to love dawkins but i prefer Bloom. Evolutionary pressure upon the human system has, only in parts of the west remember, resided due mainly to technological advancements. These advancements are information bundles, contained within the medium of the human mind, which could be broken down into single word “base pairs”. Where these base pairs combine into sentences, concepts, or doctrines they get transfered between people and “replicate” themselves into peoples minds- dawkins called them memes. But memes are self=replicating information carriers and in the same way that evolution works on genes the best memes survive and propagate themselves, spreading. So a meme-plex the eviqualent to a bacteria might be the offside rule in football, which spreads because of the success of the larger football meme-plex of which it is a part. Now we have had nation states as some of the largest meme-plexes for pretty much ever…ignoring religions for this analogy…but i liken nations to hydra…
a complex biological organism that is fixed to a single location, it is fixed to it’s land- thinking about it lichen might be a better analogy to a nation state but never mind that…
so looking at biological evolution those organisms that were not fixed to a single location had selection advantages over the hydra and could roam vast areas of the sea for food and openned up many new avenues for evolution, one of which was us…compare this to nation states and memes and perhaps the coporation fits the bill as a meme-plex with a selection advantage as it is not fixed to one geographical location- just look at the way that brands use cheap labour in third world countries getting free stuff off already crippled governments and then leave and relocate to another cheap production site when that country’s infrastructure collapses…
but does it have to be like that? If a corporation is akin to a primitove organism what are we in relation to it? many people have commented that corporations chew people up and spit them out, so are we food?
no, we are that organism. Just as you are every cell in your body. So if we don’t like the memetic makeup of our coporate bodies maybe we need to add some new selection pressures?
I was talking from a purely biological gene sense (as I believe Duppythegonzo was glancing at his post).I have no qualms with the concept of memes, and no-one can deny we are “evolving” interlectually.I don’t believe the smaller-jaw has been any sort of realistic pressure on us in the past 50,000 years.We’re not doomed, because evolution will start any time we are under extreme pressures…
Reminds me of something I said on these boards…
which a few people had a go at.
i agree…although it may get flak for supposing active conscious participation in that process…just because our nature and needs, predominantly created by us to entertain and sustain our economic and value systems, have led to a complex perfectly suited to exploit our innermost desires in the name of consumption does not make one individual tacit in that…althouth edward bernays seems the best candidate so far-see century of self, documentary on bbc2 recently…
what people have to remember as well is that there must be a sufficient reason for the world to be like it is, and not a utopia…not that i don’t believe that that is possible, only that our preconceptions of utopia spring from the inauthentic relations we have with life and our existence generally…we have marxist ideals because of flaws in the capitalist “system”/doctrine? but the capitalist system has won out, at least so far, because it is better adapted to the “needs”(circumstances is better) of the 20th century…
what we have today, or the procpect facing us now, if you believe all the commentators is the face-off between an islamic socio-religious complex and the west’s christian(?)-capitalist complex…the west has had the best of the last 500years over the islamic world in technology, thus more modern warfare, and trade but islam is a potent proselytizer(?), ie it is very good at winning converts, and keeping them…which one come out on top, if at all, depends on global circumstances and their memetic adaptions to these circumstances…perhaps…
howard bloom’s excellent lucifer principal book has a lot to say on the psychological factor that lead into fanaticism, and how islam’s memes aids or encourages this process…nb, noting that the christian west of the past encorporated similar memes but that cultural progress, esp in cival rights, over the last fifty years have had a huge effect in levelling thoes out…
well that’s enough for now enjoy
I think we are, as a species, evolving. I think ideas evolve and those of us who think up these ideas evolve. I think one of the problems is that there are just so many damn people on this planet that it slows evolution. Secondly, I think the fact that most people live dead-end lives and are content to NOT evolve, slows down the process. I think one can see evolution just since the turn of the last century. Look how differently women and certain ethnic groups are treated today than they were a hundred years ago. Certainly I think this is an example of evolution. I think the problem lies in the fact that, essentially, the human condition does not change. No matter what we have, what we’ve done, what we’ve experienced, we still experience the same emotions, the same drives, etc. In that sense, I do not think we can evolve. However, in terms of our intellectual capacities, I think we continue to evolve every day.
Please, when you’re talking about evolution, make it clear if you are talking about society evolving, or individual people biologically evolving (having a different genetic makeup due to pressures on selection…).
I was talking about society evolving. I can’t really say if we are still biologically evolving or not, even though I tend to think we are, however slowly.
“I was talking about society evolving. I can’t really say if we are still biologically evolving or not, even though I tend to think we are, however slowly.”
took the words out of my mouth… we arent really physiologically evolving any more, as if you subscribe to the majority of evolutionary theories evolution requires seperate isolated populations… as it stands now, any mutation just gets bred back out again, and not being the most prime physical specimen doesnt really make you any less likely to survive to procreate either.
however, society is most definitely evolving at an exponential rate.
This may not be completely relavent but very interesting…
Did you know that ears are the remnants of gills?
And do you know that when the top of a baby’s head is still soft (before the bone grows over), you can feel the remnant of a third eye (which is still visable (just) in some reptiles)? No joking.
Isn’t evolution interesting?
I think that technology has interfed with evolution in biological terms. I am sure that factors like environmental pollution and our modern interpretation of nutrition will haunt us down the road, but I think that the biggest factor in the future of evolution is human reproduction. People who would not normally reproduce are now doing so in large numbers, mostly as a result of pharmaceutical advances. We are passing on genetic traits that would normally be weeded out through natural selection. Modern medicine strives to save everyone from everything, while nature dictates that some shouldn’t make it as far as others. If nothing else has been revealed to us, one thing is clear. Our biological purpose on this planet is to reproduce. Technolgy has worked hand in hand with our biological need to see our offspring survive. We are changing the course of our evolution for the worse, but past evolution has brought us to where we now stand. We have been programmed to do anything to ensure the survival of our children. By allowing those that are genetically inferior to mature and reproduce, we have turned the tables on nature. We are toying with the future of evolution.
hi Deirde, welcome to the boards. A lot of what you have said in your post is related to the posts under the topic “A Pure Race” which can be reached here: ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … hp?t=24000
You may be interested to have a little read of that.
the ‘third eye’ present in some reptiles isn’t actually en eye as such… http://www.anapsid.org/parietal.html
Dead right kjeevah, the third eye is the pineal gland. It is represented as a third eye in many reigious and spiritual illustrations, since it is th gland which kicks in during enhanced states of consciousness. More information can be found by reading some of what Dr. Timothy Leary wrote about the subject. (Warning, Leary is considered a quack by most western govts. and was imprizoned for his research into psychadelic compounds. If you prefer to remain mainstream he should probably be avoided, like most things)
humans stopped evolving when surviving became easier. If there is no longer struggle to survive, then there is no more natural selection, and we can never expect to get stronger as a race. In my opinion its too late for us to stop what is happenening. No matter what we do, its not what we were meant to do. the closest thing we could do to be who we are supposed to is to live off of the land. the moment the human race doesnt use machines, is the moment that everything can become better. have u ever seen a mentally retarded antelope? thats because it would have died long before u ever got a chance to. in our society being humane is very important, and therefore we keep people alive a lot longer then they were meant to be around. medications should not be around, and as bad as it sounds life support of any kinds and all hospitals should be gone. but thats not the way it is. the problem with humans is that we are too smart for our own good. we made everything so easy that there is no more struggle for survival and we can simply cost through our existence. instead of worrying about shelter or food, we are worrying about pay checks, and money.
the average human has very diluted thinking and would never really use their time to think about people as just another animal. looking at things from the outside in is important to see what we really are, just another organic being thats main purpose is to pro-create, just like every other organism. the average person holds themselves too highly to think of themselves as just a small part of this world, and an even smaller part of this universe…im done…sorry thats just some stuff i was thinking.
“No matter what we do, its not what we were meant to do”
Sorry to break it to you, but we can do nothing but what we are “meant” to do
“medications should not be around, and as bad as it sounds life support of any kinds and all hospitals should be gone”
OK, you go off and lie in your non-technology utopia, and we’ll see who’s left standing the next time the Plague comes around.
“instead of worrying about shelter or food, we are worrying about pay checks, and money”
Which are used to obtain shelter and food, so what really is your point?
“the average person holds themselves too highly to think of themselves as just a small part of this world, and an even smaller part of this universe”
And unfortunately you have fallen into the same trap, you seem to see humans as apart from nature. Everything we do, technological and otherwise is a result of the natural processes which got us here, and which continue to this day. THERE ARE NO EXTERNAL INFLUENCES. To believe otherwise is th great fallacy perpetuated by all these anti-tech fanatics.
Response to Duppythe Gonzo,
I think you have a good head on your shoulders, I like you thought of things like this in grade ten. Actually, I believed much the same like you that we de-evolved, we got lazy, things were made too easy for us. Image, sex, self-satisfaction, drinking, and drugs have become the norm. Why? Well, many don’t care to think about things, they say "Why should I waste my time thinking of something when almost everything has already been thought of.
But I learned we DID evolve. You say we got weaker, true, but how is this bad? You are constrained to the notion that in high school it is the big jock that gets everything, and so if one is not big and tough than he is inadequate. Not true, you have to realize ‘why’ we were so strong when we were cavemen. Because if we weren’t we would die. So you are asking why aren’t we now, well because we don’t need to be. Imagine if you were 6’6, 300lbs and a computer geek that sits at his computer all day. Can you imagine the food consumption you need to feed that stomach? Honestly, with the over-population in the world it would be best if we were all 5’, 120lbs. Less space needed, less food, less material for clothes - and so forth. So as you see, we HAVE adapted/evolved to our surroundings. Look at the chinese and the japanese with enormous populations in such a small amount of land. But they make it work. Majority of people are astounded to hear that 40% of Japan was forest, agricultural, and park land prior to World War II. This being because of all the damage from the war, people needed to expand quickly to bring things back to normal and wild life and natural landscapes were sacrificed - this is fact not my opinion (about Japan’s recovery and the sacrifice of land and wild life).
But I do agree that people are lazy, and if they aren’t lazy they are absorbed with power, sex, drugs, money, fame, etc. None of which has anything to do with doing good for the world. I say this in the context of doing nothing but being absorbed with the above mentioned. Obviously money, power, and fame can be used to better the world when used appropriately.
It’s true that our technology is advancing at an incredible pace, but you must also observe the multi-tasking actions of human beings on a daily basis. People nowadays eat, drive, talk on the cell phone, watch the road, alter gas and break pedals - this is an accomplishment people would laugh at the possibility of it being done only 50 years ago.
Your statements seem routed in the physical aspects, try to look at the percentages of university students and how much is being done with theories, inventions, good causes, etc.
One of the most interesting people I have read about is Buckminster Fuller. If your interested check him out.
What’s your take?
bump***
on my many study periods where I go and read old posts in order to learn and study from the many ideas, theories, and debates by my fellow ILP members, I came accross this goodie. Even though it seems Magius has disappeared off the face of the internet, I have some questions. Well, not exactly questions.
I feel that we are evolving. I believe that our minds are growing, well some of us, I’m not sure about everybody. And taht sooner or later we will break the bonds of a physical body into one of just pure energy. This is through the help of many Star Trek episodes while on drugs. What is everybody’s opinion?
The New Generation is pretty good…
I actually had a dream in which i had a third eye, i considered it a lucky omen.
Evolution has the effect of adapting the creature to one’s surroundings. It generally accomplishes this through gene selection adumbrating through many generations of Sex and Death. Science has thwarted this to an extent, but lifespans in third World countries are a third of what they are in more modern, industrialized countries. Technology has both aided and hindered biological evolution. In addition we get to decide how we act on our environment which is where ‘memes’ come in. For example, underdog Palestinians use their religion to justify killing thousands of their enemies at a small cost to themselves ( a good ‘evolutionary’ strategy not based in biology). Our biological underpinnings are so strong that they come out even in our technology and social structure. Evolution is still brutal, it just now wears a more comely face.
Humans are still evolving. Want some evidence? Take a look at your parents. Are you different to them, yet with physical properties of either or both?
Regardless, the ultimate fate of everything is death, if our current understanding of physics is reasonably accurate. The universe will go cold and dark, and there will be nothing left.