Nietzsche Was Wrong

At least to a certain extent. My commitment to this argument is timid at best but it is something I’ve been contemplating a lot recently. Here it goes:

Nietzsche was, in all seriousness, a savior to philosophy. He is pivotal to what it is and has become. But there are some conclusions that he made that seem to me to be a sort of cop out (how ironic is it to say that of Nietzsche). It’s extremely difficult to in any way properly summarize his overall assertions, given that there is so much depth, interpretation, and contradiction to wade through. But since his arguments are the premises to my argument, I’ll do my best to rectify them. In all likelihood, the major fallacy of this argument may be my very interpretation of Nietzsche’s ideas.

Philosopher’s during Nietzsche’s time were much like alchemists; they melted and melded values and philosophies in an attempt to find the philosopher’s stone, so to speak. The holy grail of philosophy. Foundation. Nietzsche, despite how he himself might not admit it, was quite similar in the beginning. The primary difference is what was regarded as the end-all consummation of philosophy, as foundation. As Nietzsche experimented and poured forth values into his flaming cauldron, reducing them to base properties and thereafter reducing those same properties into their base properties, he began to touch upon infinite reduction. While other philosophers melted down values in hopes of reducing them to their final state, their core being, he began to realize that no such thing(s) existed. Que in the existential angst. So what was he to do? If there was no underlying foundation to anything, what was the point of anything? Even if we did dive in to the abyss, reducing everything to infinity like raving madmen, we’d eventually become a part of infinity; might as well slit one’s own wrists. But wait, there may be hope yet!

Humanity.

Or rather, human-ness. That is, Nietzsche came to see that we were utterly contingent upon our perspectives and thus limited in the extent to which we could reduce things. If that was so, then we all share a similar scope of observation, manifesting the human perspective. To Nietzsche, despite the never-ending infinity that reduction eventually brings, we can at least stop short of this infinite regress. We can melt values down to their core components through a human template. All of the intrinsic and instinctual components of our mind were the stop signs of reduction. Even though he knew that these instinctual components (i.e., the will to power) were made of smaller components, it was our human perspective that restricted us from melting the wholeness of these instinctual components down any further.

And so a foundation was laid and all rejoiced.

Nietzsche even predicted the ramifications of this foundation, claiming the eventual uprising of the Ubermensch. To him, a superior breed of human-thought based on his foundation would take over. These Ubermensch would revel in their human perspective, taking great pride in their human-ness and the foundation upon which being a human is built on.

All of this is good and well when under the complete assumption that the human perspective is static. It is my belief that it is not. For fuck’s sakes, we live in a postmodern world lathered in nihilism. Foundation of any kind never stands firm, even a purely human one. Our reductive abilities are bloating with the marching of our technological advancements. We’re beginning to reduce all the great mysteries of the natural world to bland infinity. We’re becoming secular, politically correct, tolerant of others’ opinions. Opinions themselves are losing foundation.

Nietzsche accurately predicted the coming of nihilism, I just don’t think he accurately predicted its ending. I ask, will the Ubermensch survive through this postmodern epoch? My personal answer is that it will not. The way I see it, humanity will go on reducing everything around it to piles of dust, like the raving madmen I mentioned before. Eventually, we will reduce the Universe down to the nothingness that it is. This process, as so long as the species survives immense catastrophe, will never end. If we have to, we will become the very machines we’ve created, simply to reduce.

Nietzsche’s Ubermensch was the only glimmer of hope he could muster; any more and he’d contradict his own hopeless philosophy. So Dr. Nietzsche wasn’t so much wrong in how he diagnosed the world, just in the prescription he wrote for it.

There is no cure for this disease.

Except for the Age of Reason. :evilfun:

He wasn’t good enough to come to realize how they existed.

Provalone, it’s not about infinite reduction but rather about creating convenient concepts that allow one to repose upon the truth. BTW we live in a modern world and Nietzsche was postmodern.

I think human being has natural inclination to seek “absolute” in our mind, “goodness” in our heart, and “comfort” in our sense.
And this innate inclination towards “absolute” in our mind — in our logical mind — translates into our longing for absolute truth — in the sense of absolute Logical truth.

BUT, unfortunately, there seems to be also another innate inclination in human mind.
It’s the tendency to see something limited as limitless, something partial as a whole, something with boundaries as infinite …

IF there is something to be called “disease”, I would say this is the one.
Our strong mental tendency to fix our focus and consider the subject within the confined vision as everything.
We tend to take things as “absolute” too easily, shamelessly, too often.
We tend to imply absoluteness in the every bit of our thought and phrases, enless we are very carefull.

Let’s take an example of someone saying “God exists”.

In the mind of this person who says this, he is implying the “God” to be the absolute God, although he doesn’t have any idea of “what is absolute?”.
Also, that “god” thing exists absolutely without any doubt nor possibility of being otherwise, to her/him.

Sadly, this kind of person has no idea that something "absolute can’t have any property because having any property is a limiting factor and thus contradicts the very idea of “absoluteness”.
So, declaring “(absolute) god exists” is the same as saying “something without any property has the property of existence”, which is rather nonsense, illogical.

Although he said “the god is dead” sort of thing, I guess it was the very disease of “seeing something partial as a whole”, “limited as absolute” that was destructed in his mind, probably.

Without this disease, we can’t make any blind assertion, comfortably, as we shall know the limits of all logical evaluations and all logical knowledge.
In other words, we shall over grow through the childish tendency to see and imply “absoluteness” in our thought, and start living in the world of “possibilities” and “probabilities”.

However, this is very uncomfortable position for remaining subconscious conditionings and values, as well as emotional part of our mind, since they are still nearly hardwired to see things with “absolute” flavor and they need “absolute” answers.

The dichotomies between partially awakened logical mind and other parts will inevitably create the state that might be called “disease”.
But for me, personally experiencing and deepening this limbo state for many years, these dichotomies aren’t “disease” but just some symptoms of passage or transition.

And there is the thing called “hope”.
“Hope” is the name for our longing for “the absolute goodness” in our heart, or emotional mind, to me.
It’s better to understand that there is no hope left for the person who has seen the nature of “absolute”.
Unless all hopes are gone, we will feel some hope, naturally, and then the despair will follow as result.
But we have to really experience and observe our emotion in the conscious ground to fully understand its nature.

Although often misunderstood, emotion isn’t something totally different from logic.
In the underlying layers, our emotion evaluate things using the preferences as the basis.
And preferences are just a mess … it’s an odd mixture of odd inclinations … coming from different origins.
Some preferences come from our parents, others from animal nature, and yet others from past experiences, and so on.
Basically, they are pretty baseless and stupid.
But again, we have to let them surface from subconscious layers to fully experience to let them go.

Oh, by the way, I think human have a tendency to seek the death, as well as the life.
Also, some of us seem to have a sot of “hope” attached to the idea of dying, I mean suicide.

I smell somewhat a kind of “romanticism” around the idea of terminating one’s own life.
A sort of narcissism, indulgence on the idea that one has at least the power to finish her/his existence.
Well, we are free to escape into any delusions and dreams, but it doesn’t help us in cleaning up the mess called human mind.

And anyways, if we know clearly that we are literally dying every instance, we don’t need to seek death, anymore.
I think the death in the absolute sense is dissolving into the absolute.
And that’s exactly what’s happening to some of us, consciously, and for all of us, unconsciously. :smiley:

Of course there is: Global Destruction.

( Which given the level of hubris within man it most likely will be self inflicted.)

Reason is a extension of desire and with all the relative desires warring amongst each other where no single one advances exponetially I guarantee reason’s failure.

I see reason as the evolution of desire through language, the mind & body.

It is not “an” extension of desire–it is the extension of desire, from my point of view of course.

Reason is subordinate to desire.

True, but what happens when reason is the epitome of desire–when reason and desire both become one another?

How?

It happens when the ‘reasons’ become clear to themselves. For example, I have desires, but I am no hypocrite or liar about them. I embrace them for what they are. I embrace my animal nature.

So… when I start ‘reasoning’ about things, the reasons themselves are no longer separated from my desires by any duality (i.e. mind/body or subject/object split). Whatever reason I have for doing something, thinking something, or any reason at all, it will be a manifestation of my desire through language–a mere description of that desire and its relation to other people through sociality…

:smiley:

There is a deeper problem with Nietzsche, for he speaks about what is “natural,” which is the same as speaking about metaphysics. We know nature only through its manifestations, that is, after the fact. To speak about any “natural” drive (e.g. Will-to-power) is akin to speaking about noumena. We only have knowledge of manifestations, of phenomena, everything else must be bracketed as being beyond the limits of knowledge, out of reach; as Schopenhauer would say, outside the principle of sufficient reason. Kant not only put an end to metaphysics, but essentially, when one takes him to the limit, an end to speaking about “nature” itself.

For clarity let me elaborate. One can only speak about innocence after the Fall. Speaking about innocence is meaningless after the fact. Just like one can’t speak, or know, the thing-in-itself, it is meaningless to even talk about any “thing-in-itself,” likewise, it is meaningless to talk about any “natural” drive outside the web of culture, language, semblance (the Apollonian), from which is our starting point. Take sexuality as an example. We only know sexuality as a manifestation, only after it comes into being in one aspect or another. That is, we observe heterosexuality, homosexuality, bi-sexuality, inter-species sexuality, all as manifestations in one faucet or another, all through the phenomenal end-product. Just like we only have knowledge of phenomena, not the thing-in-itself, we only have knowledge of sexual manifestation, not any “natural drive.” So to speak of a “sex-drive,” from which all these various manifestations stem from is meaningless in two ways:

A) We can’t have any knowledge of what a sex drive is, as we only know it after it takes on a particular being
B) We do precisely what Nietzsche accused Plato of doing in Truth and Lying in a non-moral sense, using language as a metaphor that neglects all individual differences, and from that starting point, developing a concept of unity that is a metaphor of a metaphor which attempts to unite difference in a universal.

  1. Nietzsche’s critique is against Platonic forms, which always develop after forgetting individual difference under the cloak of an abstract concept.

Nietzsche’s attack on Plato undermines his own development of “natural drives.”

It was Nietzsche that said, “Man is a Myth,” Correct? Nature is a Myth.

Wow, I totally agree. That was a great way of putting it, Nah.

I might also add that Sigmund Freud touched upon the death and live drives which to him were contradictory subconscious yearnings for both death and life. That’s quite similar to what you were saying about the tendency to seek death.

It seems that notions of the ‘self’ and the ‘tribe’ are simply unshakable for the time being. They permeate our monkey psychologies too deeply. Unless we get to the point of manipulating and rewiring our own brains within the next century, I won’t be around to see it happen. I suppose what is commendable is the fact that we can at least recognize the futility and meaninglessness of ‘absolute monkey values’, even if we can’t rid ourselves of them.

What I would ask is what would we be without these monkey notions? No emotion, no will to power to speak of; I’d assume we’d simply cease to be conscious.

Which is a cause I support. :wink:

Hooray for misanthropy.

To me, reasoning is the ability to create or manifest reasons. When we witness a phenomena, an effect, our minds ‘desire’ the cause, or the reason. This motivates other faculties of our brains to either a.) discover the reason(s) via reduction or b.) fabricate reasons of our own due to the limits and contingencies of our human perspectives.

Since our human perspective is shifting, our mode of reasoning is shifting as well, from that of assumptions and speculations to empirical reduction via science. Reasoning thus isn’t an end but rather a means to one; it certainly isn’t a cure for our predicament.

Well I don’t see reason as an ‘end’ to something, but I do see it as the next step in terms of solving classical quandaries and moving onto the next stage of quandaries, whatever they will appear to be.

Brilliant, because you can’t kill the bacteria, you decide to destroy the entire liver. With it taking along every non-infected cell. Magnanimous Genius! The world could use more doctors like you…

a.) Convenience isn’t absolute. Foundation requires absoluteness, there is no such thing, thus Nietzsche attempted to contrive some sort of loophole in the system wherein a foundation would be its own absolute crutch.

b.) Let’s not argue on the intricacies of postmodernism. All I can say is that Nietzsche for quite some time was interpreted in a modern light pretty much up until Deleuze. What I’m offering in the OP is a postmodern interpretation.

Right, which is but a stage in the never-ending, ongoing, infinite process of reduction. Reason is a very nihilistic force. It is like battery acid in its corrosiveness to values. It eventually destroys all.