news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa
oh dear… it seems the freedom of religion is not going to recognized in france… how liberal…
no burka for you my religious friend…
history never repeats…
what will they name the upcoming anti crusader crusade?
-Imp
i didnt know there was any freedom in france at all…
Trade one form of tyranny for another . . . the largest Muslim population in Europe. Foolish.
I’m a little torn about this myself. On the one hand, freedom usually cures people of poor decisions better than force, and forcing people to remove their burkas will likely intensify and ingrain the cultural significance of the garment. On the other hand, it is totally oppressive of women.
On the third hand, it’s probably not any more oppressive than halter tops and high heels. Women in the US are free to choose their oppression.
it doesnt matter if its demeaning or oppressive to women. it doesnt matter if they want to paint “WHORE SLUT CUNT BITCH” on their foreheads and tatoo it all over their bodies, and go around bowing and doing men’s every wish, as long as its their free choice.
everyone should (in a free society, yes i realise there are none left on earth) have the inherent right to do whatever they want as long as no one else is hurt. women who want to demean themselves should be free to do it, not the least of which is because “demean” is not concrete and is completely relative: im sure those islam women (at least some of them) consider it an honor and priviledge to wear those burka clothes. im sure they feel that exposing yourself like other women do is demeaning. and whose to say who is right?
yes, we are right that FORCING women to cover themselves is demeaning and socially/morally wrong… but IN THE EXACT SAME WAY, literally for the exact same reason, forcing them NOT TO cover themselves is just as demeaning. that france, or anywhere else for that matter (or anyone on ILP) actually considers, even a little, that such draconian measures are even somewhat good is just one more symptom that freedom is dead in the world, and all thats left is a slow implosion into chaos and absolute government control… but dont worry, it will all be “for your own good”; just like forcing out the burkas…
dont forget the motto of the world today, that weve all swallowed hook line and sinker: “im from the government and im here to help.”
Well, the issue is that it’s often hard to determine how free a choice is. Yes, many muslim women ‘choose’ to wear burkas, but how often is their choice between wearing the burka and being beaten by their husbands or male family members? It’s very hard to say.
As an ideal, giving people liberty and letting them suffer if they don’t choose to embrace it is not something I’m questioning. However, in practical terms, people often simply don’t operate that way. A woman who has been raised in a culture where people are stoned to death for failure to wear a burka may simply not seriously consider the option of taking off her burka. It’s possible manipulate, to terrorize, to psychologically coerce people to do things that are harmful to them or that strip them of their freedom. They may ‘choose’ to do something, but it’s a pseudochoice because they aren’t able to consider their options rationally.
Look at phenomena like Stockholm Syndrome: Should we really treat the sentiment that people experience as exactly the same as the sentiments people in a free society freely developing friendships with those around them? It seems that forcing a victim to undergo psychological treatment, and restricting their contact with their captors, gives the victim more freedom, by helping them to overcome a trauma that has led to an irrational decision-making process. If that’s the case, it’s at least a proof-of-concept that there are situations where restrictions paradoxically increase freedom.
Great line of thought. The muslim world needs to be able to analyse itself outside its own strict framework of “because it says so”, to be able to rationalise why it does things the way it does and what they mean. Unfortunately however, there’s a great social, possibly a safety, and potentially a legal burden, on those who choose to do so even in the islamic subsocieties of the western world
But this is purely cosmetic - a dress code - you aren’t going to change anyone’s ideologies by restricting what they can wear - if anything you’ll piss them off and make them more extreme. Furthermore this legislation punishes the women and not the men who oppress them - imagine being put in a position where you either dress as you’re told by your family and risk breaking the law or you dress according to the law and risk getting beaten, shunned or worse by your family - all that does is place the women who it is ostensibly aimed at liberating in an incredibly socially awkward and paradoxical set of circumstances. If the goal is really reform, then it wasn’t very well thought through.
Yeah, free choice is an illusion for a lot of these women. And some of the women are clearly being pressured into wearing burka’s. The measure would probably make it easier on them, after a while at least.
And purely cosmetic 
, I would think it makes a great difference not having to wear a burka. A burka basicly cuts you off from the world, especially the non-muslim world.
But there’s obviously no great solution here.
purely cosmetic for France, not for the women wearing burkas - in other words, it’s not going to reduce the amount of orthodox islamicism, it will simply make it less visible
I don’t know, maybe it would enable the women not wearing burka’s to interact, and adopt western culture more easily. Like i said burka’s cuts you off from the world.
i’m skeptical of that - these women will still face the same social and family pressures, be subject to the same cultural aversion to westernization - it’s not the burka that’s the primary thing cutting them off from the world - it’s the ideology to which they are subject - the Burka’s just the symptom, not the disease. Meanwhile, you’re pissing off the men in their lives and giving them cause to crack down even harder on the womens’ freedoms.
I think the burka is more than merely a symptom of the disease, it looks more like an instrument to quarantine the disease. (Just keeping the metaphore going, not judging Islam here 
)
I don’t think the burka was introduced as a mere arbitrairy aestitic preference of the tradition of the time. They probably had their reasons to implement it.
But I don’t know enough of Islam to make statements about it, really. Maybe a muslim, or someone who know the religion can chime in.
Also, I think it’s fair to say that the way you dress can have a clear effect on your views. The clothes make the man afterall.
To be fair having just read the article it seems blown out of proportion a bit.
It all depends on how you view the burqa as a religious symbol worn by women as a free choice.
The burqa’s validity in Islam depends, as with all in religions, upon interpretation. Some view it as required, others don’t. That people should be free to decide this themselves is surely not up for debate, regardless of how good or bad we may view it ourselves.
However what is up for debate, is the forced wearing of the burqa, either directly or indirectly, by others. I don’t think it is overblown to say in general Muslim women do not enjoy the great amount of freedoms allowed to other women. Many are physically forced into wearing the garment. But perhaps just as seriously, is the social and physcological pressure put onto women to wear it. That they would be tarred as sluts, and un-Muslim, is often enough to force young women to wear something they do not want to. I find it hard to understand the reasoning behind it, although obviously I was raised outwith Islam so it naturally seems strange.
From reading the article I get the impression, that this is what France is trying to solve, however Sarkozy’s arrogant attitude could convey otherwise
in the most superficial way possible - it’s like trying to prevent gang violence by banning baggy jeans and tattoos.