i.e. Body language. How effective is it?
Is it learned behavior, because based on everything I have read about it it sounds instinctive. I suppose i should say it seems more like learnable behavior… thus how relaible can it be?
Based on what I have read compared to what I have observed in relation to me, I am overly popular with bleached blondes, all my friends are superficial pricks, and no employer will ever hire me. And these are just the signals I get walking around like a smiling dolt, leaning forward and listening intently to some moron wax poetic about the healing power of folk music (not really but you get the idea).
To put it bluntly, alot of it, if not all of it, seems like crap to me. How much stock should anyone place in it?
I’m not sure. But I just watched an analysis of the first presidential debate, and the political commentators were talking about the candidates’ body language. And they even said that there’s a lot to learn about the candidates body language, perhaps more than from what they were saying.
Perhaps? Body language is probably the only thing readable coming from a politician whose words are carefully scripted and rehearsed. Listening to what a politician has to say is sort of like listening to the wind blow. What would you like to hear?
That said, there has been enough studies done on ‘body language’ to establish some correlation between the “message” being sent and what is received. It isn’t an exact science. (what is?) It’s more on the order of reading tea leaves.
GTC,
At least you’re popular with bleached blondes. What’s your problem?
Blondes? Hmm it isn’t that I dislike blondes, they really just don’t do anything for me. I do find myself slightly annoyed with the bleached variety, as well as being annoyed with women who wear make up (which is like damn near all women)… not because I think they are vain, but painting up one’s self to attract a mate reminds me just how superficial we men (and yes I am including me) really are. There you have it, just a few of my “issues”.
Yes, that sums it up pretty much. I can buy the eye contact thing… if someone always manages to look at you it is probably because they want to look at you. Things like ‘if she shows you her palms it means that she is willing to submit to you sexually’ seem kind of, well, silly. ‘Crossing your arms while listening to someone means that person doesn’t trust or doesn’t like you.’ As it is supposed to be symbolic of guarding one’s heart. Blah. ‘If a woman spreads her feet apart while being around you it means she is comfortable with you.’ Maybe… and maybe it means she has a bad bout of vaginal itch.
G.C.T. Did this idea come from reading 1984? All the people trained to read the thoughts of their subjects on the other side of the telescreen.
Although it doesnt really matter whether it did surface from the reading or if it didnt.
Isnt body language the language of the psychologist? One can read a great deal into the movements of a persons body, hands, the muscles of the face. The look in ones eyes, and although it may not be an exact science, there is something to it. Maybe something even learned, that is… well instinctive for lack of a better word. It goes beyond the movements of the body however as well, and to a certain extent one can make assumptions based on the clothing some one is wearing, or the car that they drive, or if you happen to see the interior of someones house or apartment wouldnt this open the sluice gate for these types of unaffirmed conclusions. Eventhough they may be unaffirmed, isnt there something there behind ones suspicions?
Obviously almost all of ones perceptions attained in this manner are based upon assumptions, and they are assumptions that are rarely ever confirmed or destroyed. There is only the assumption and ones ability to read people which depending may not take you very far. It is as likely to be completely surprised at some absolute revelation as it is to be able to say, “thats exactly as I thought”
But I dont know. What do you think the value is? Do you still think it’s crap?
I read Darwin’s book on human and animal facial expressions and there were many correlations in expressions between humans and animals, which I think goes to show that expressions and body language are inherent as opposed to learned.
There is really a lot to body language. The body responds and displays the emotions and feelings of the person. Let me demonstrate with this little experiment: Put on a fake big smile for 15 seconds and try to be depressed while your smiling. Its a fake smile, yet our mind still corresponds to our physiology.
The body is also electromagnetic. To prove this take a working battery and place it with the - against your body. Place it a little lower then your chest but above your stomach. Stretch out your left arm and have someone press down on your arm with one hand while you resist as strongly as you can while holding the battery against yourself with your other hand. Then do the same thing with the + side towards yourself. What will happen is with the + you will not be able to resist but with the - you will.
You can do a similar experiment while thinking about a succesful exprience you had or a real powerful thought in contrast to a negative one. You can even do it by saying “My name is (real name)” in contrast to “My name is (Fake name)”, and the results will be the same. This goes to demonstrate the correlations between mind(thoughts) and body.
I think body language is one the greatest informative criteria in judging someone. There is a ton of information to be gained. For example how comfortable a person is, how they feel, how confident they are, their state of mind, whether their lying or telling the truth and so on.
Another interesting thing to take note of is: If you ever wish to distinguish a genuine smile from a disingenuous one take notice of the eyes. When the eyes squint and a person smiles it is geniune while if the eyes do not change at all when the person smiles it is fake or put on. You can especialy notice this freqently in magazine photographs.
Looking down by the way is a signal of the person feeling emotions. Down and away the person is feeling shy or uncomfortable.
“A man’s face as a rule says more, and more interesting things, than his mouth, for it is a compendium of everything his mouth will ever say, in that it is the monogram of all this man’s thoughts and aspirations.”- Schopenhauer
To be completely honest Concordant, my interest in non verbal communication increased as I noticed various bleached blondes staring or sometimes sneaking glances at me. Not that it happens often. Suffice it to say, I am not really used to getting checked out, what with my various disfigurements and what not.
Ok, i kid about the disfigurements, and I know that I will burn in hell for joking about things like that, but it is a nice segue into my counter arguments to both you and Underground.
How are the traditionally held beliefs about body language adjusted if one considers the object under scrutiny is physically maligned in some way? Do the rules change? Is that girl across the bar staring at me because she digs my groove thang, or is it because I am in between skin grafts?
Body language may be mostly instinctive, but is it not also easily controlled… so much so it can be manipulated to the point of absurdity. people act as if these various physical cues are universal, and yet not known well enough that people could not possibly countenance a means of manipulating it. Personally, i never lean forward to hear something i consider interesting if it is audible to begin with, yet they say that it is a sure sign or interest in what a speaker is saying. Perhaps my cold INTP heart is aloof.
The reason I asked originally was, after reading about the subject, and consciously monitoring my physical reactions in all manner of situations, I display very few of the supposedly inherent characteristics ( I am thinking an instinctive bodily action is a characteristic) except in case of extreme emotion.
My point is, I do think there is some validity to this, but the degree body language is employed varies from individual to individual. yes, that bleached blonde might be staring at you because she likes you, or maybe you remind her of the man she hates most in life and she wants to walk over and rip your eyes out. Who can say? Past experiences and petty things like social context have to be very significant factors in this, just I never see it mentioned. or at least, at those places that promise a way to change our lives with the magic of furtive glances.
I suspect that we are all capable of reading body language. The danger comes from our assumptions and labeling. It become’s worse if we begin to think we ‘know’ something about the sender of such language. It’s bad enough that we suffer all the illusions the world present’s us, let alone our own delusions.
I may intuit signals being ‘sent’, and I might even be right 30 or 40% of the time, (dumb insensitive male syndrome) but trying to analyze, catagorize, and assign causal relationship is foolishness.
Of course, being male, the ad for that new car seem’s more persuasive with the bleached blonde draped over the hood.
G.C.T. I’m in almost complete agreement with you. The only place I really differ is in emphasis, which is opinion and not worth argueing over, in fact it would be foolish to do so.
I understand it is not a science and in the best of circumstances it is still pure speculation. For some one who prefers facts to unconfirmable possibilities, body language would always stay in the backround, and never become an act of observation that could be relied upon, and this should be true for someone that speculates too often as well, just to avoid assuming too much.
G.C.T. wrote:
“Past experiences and petty things like social context have to be very significant factors in this”
And thats just it. One can never know these facts when dealing with a stranger. If you want to know something it’s best to ask.
I was reading about a game that is played in Iraq. I dont remember it’s name, but it is set up in this way. A group of men ranging in number from maybe three to one hundred (I dont know the particulars) sit together. One of them is given a marble which is the object that the opponent must find. The game begins with the entry of a single man who’s job it is to find and pinpoint the person who is the in possesion of the marble. He does this by reading peoples body language, and from what I read there are those that are phenomenally good at winning this game.
Women read body language better than men. It’s a very subtle language realted to what lies beneath the superfical masked person. It is a gift. If you wish to learn to read this language it takes years of study.
I think non-verbal communication is as important as verbal communication because verbal represents the mind and the non-verbal represents the body, and we comprise of both, body and mind. Therefore verbal and non-verbal communication have to be equally important. But this does not mean that we can’t or shouldn’t use one more than the other. However, if we use both equally then we’ll be happiest. That’s what I believe because it will bring a balance in our life that we all need. Of course we can be happy without this appropriate balance too but we’ll still be happiest if the balance is perfect.
just a thought…
almost all body language experts say that if you ask someone a question and they look away persistantly then they are lying, it’s a well established fact. ok fair enough however, women have you ever noticed if you ask a man an important question aggressively they will look away whatever the questio. yes well it seems this theory ignores what is called the fight or flee syndrome, when men are attacked in anyway this fight or flee syndrome occurs, ie do they confront, or do they run (it goes back to when men chased dinasaurs etc… not that i’m comparing women to dinasaurs) they may have the answer and may answer truthfully but their brains instictively make him look away. to find an excape route as it were.
It would seem there is more to our behaviour that what the experts say.
GCT put it succinctly [i]"Blah. ‘If a woman spreads her feet apart while being around you it means she is comfortable with you.’ Maybe… and maybe it means she has a bad bout of vaginal itch.
sarax, I think intuition is our best guide to understanding non-verbal body language because knowing about NVBL people have started to use it to make the other feel good or bad deliberately by say while sitting next to a person, one will deliberately cross their leg towards them or away from them. So, I’d let intuition be my guide or in other words learn to read the other’s heart and not body language.
Hey…hey…some of us wear make-up because we think it’s fun to paint our faces, or nails, or toenails. I love to paint, but I don’t have the opportunity to break out my supplies and spend several hours doing it on a daily basis. So, I make-up my face, or I often make-up other people’s faces. I love making girls prettier, just like I enjoy taking a blank canvas and turning it into something that is visually appealing. It is more difficult on a face than a canvas…a canvas doesn’t move, complain, or ask for a mirror before you are finished.I’ve gotten so good at it that I can put on liquid eyeliner during a bumpy car ride, and trust me, that is a skill.
Men are starting to wear it too…and not just my gay friends. All you boys may be coming to us for tips soon.
Newbie here and saw the thread from a while back. Many of you have touched upon various “truths” about body language, namely that certain expressions and gestures/poses do appear to be inherent, while others are learned. Someone mentioned an experiment: here’s a cool one: make a face at a baby and she can imitate it pretty well without ever having seen her own face. Or blind babies smile just like sighted ones (no, it’s not gas!), etc…
But the problem is when “experts” try to make “100% claims” as to what certain actions indicate. For example, one of the oldest ones is “closed or folded arms=closed off/not receptive to what the other person is saying.” Yet, in Japan, for instance, many men will adopt this pose when deeply contemplating something the other person has said (or pretending to). Same with the “eyes looking here means ___” rule. It’s a pretty good GENERAL rule but does not work between 10 and 50% of the time (or more), or not at all depending on the person. Even “human lie detectors” are often only accurate about -60% of the time (considering that 50% is chance, that’s not too impressive…).
Having said all that, as long as one appreciates that there are no “100% applicable” rules, body language can be extremely informative. In therapy or when doing psychological assessments, I am always checking the person’s body language, breathing rate, speech of speed, etc., but it’s usually the CHANGES that tell me that something is going on (which might contradict what she is saying).
