Also your idea of “bare minimum” is pretty comprehensive. You want to literally give people enough free money to cover the costs of their housing and discretionary spending? What about food, you seem to support that too. So we are giving people their housing, food, and spending money. Does that housing cover internet costs too? If so, you can bet most people who receive this entire lifestyle for free are going to be incentivized into becoming lazy and being online all day. And that is not even good for them psychologically… you are actually HARMING people psychologically by enabling them to live an existence like that and creating such harmful and dangerous incentives to depower their own psyche and sense of personal aspiration, productivity, hard work and personal responsibility and actually bring proud of their own life and of themselves.
Who can feel proud of themselves leeching off society with free UBI payments paying for almost everything in their entire life for them, while they have no need to do anything but sit around and play games on their smart phones, watch netflix and order random stuff from amazon?
Seriously, you have not thought through this issue either in philosophical terms, economically and perhaps most critically in human psychological terms.
There will be no more “forward-facing jobs” in 15-25 years available, except to the most elite 0.1% of society. Even they will experience hardship because the market will be so oversaturated and competitive. Already there are far too many games for the average person to succeed as an indie developer, now in 15-25 years there will be so many games many made by only 1 person and Ai. You can also forget making a living as a standard artist (like drawing pictures) or programmer since Ai will do that as well.
The average person will realize there is no future in “tech jobs”, art or white-collar jobs. The only jobs available will be blue collar jobs like plumbers. All the blue collar job markets will become oversaturated by humans. And it will only be a matter of time till robots take those jobs too.
Also your idea of “bare minimum” is pretty comprehensive. You want to literally give people enough free money to cover the costs of their housing and discretionary spending? What about food, you seem to support that too. So we are giving people their housing, food, and spending money. Does that housing cover internet costs too? If so, you can bet most people who receive this entire lifestyle for free are going to be incentivized into becoming lazy and being online all day. And that is not even good for them psychologically… you are actually HARMING people psychologically by enabling them to live an existence like that and creating such harmful and dangerous incentives to depower their own psyche and sense of personal aspiration, productivity, hard work and personal responsibility and actually bring proud of their own life and of themselves.
Who can feel proud of themselves leeching off society with free UBI payments paying for almost everything in their entire life for them, while they have no need to do anything but sit around and play games on their smart phones, watch netflix and order random stuff from amazon?
Seriously, you have not thought through this issue either in philosophical terms, economically and perhaps most critically in human psychological terms.
It is you who have not considered all the rammifications of your opinion.
Housing should be a human right, just like health-care, food, water and air. Charging people to breathe air is an absurdity. Likewise is charging people for water. Animals get food for free naturally by hunting. But humans need to pay for hunting permits, pay for weapons, and only allowed to hunt a limited amount (like 1 turkey per year.) this is all an absurdity and if you want to talk about “affront to nature” then it is definitely an affront to that. Likewise, animals get their own land for free, yet humans which are the “pinnacle of evolution” have to work as slaves for it. That sounds like the opposite of the pinnacle of evolution to me.
You talk of “pride”… Where is the pride of someone working as a slave just to have a mediocre existence?
“Who says stacking shelves at Walmart or flipping burgers at McDonalds is supposed to produce enough wages for a worker to be “non-poor”? Jobs like this pay the relative value they are producing.”
Everyone with a rational opinion. It is an injustice for people who work slave jobs to have to live in poverty. ESPECIALLY when Ceos that do nothing (who you would describe as “lazy”) are extremely rich. Ceos even get paid millions and billions for making their own businesses fail.
"Robots could do most of those jobs in most cases, and will be doing most of those jobs within our lifetimes. So you should be focusing on educating people and encouraging them to work harder, as well as educating them about financial responsibility. "
As if the average person doesn’t already work hard enough! And now you are asking them to work even more! Yet in another thread you complain about neoliberals. Wtf.
Pride at being a slave, cuckolded employee of generic box stores? Pride at having no rights forced to pee in bottles? Pride at being in debt, less than 0 balance struggling and behind on bills? Pride at less than 400 dollars in savings while CEOs get paid millions and billions while often not improving their businesses at all? Wtf
And that’s for the supposed “richest country in the world”… I haven’t even talked about poor countries yet.
Since we are now talking about poor countries, studies show that paying Africans cash directly, drastically helps African businesses and the African economy far more than indirect charities. This strongly supports UBI theory
Who says I have a solution? I certainly have not proposed one.
And while AI will certainly take many jobs, I don’t believe it will take as many as you claim. Technology opens up new doors even as it closes others, that is always the case. And think about this: the more powerful and far-reaching the technology is, the more doors it opens.
Who, back in the early 1900s, could have imagined the kind of jobs that exist today and employ so many people? Anything related to computers, the internet, etc. Their minds simply could not imagine it.
We have computers today, but did things like accounting, finance, mathematics, go away? No they didn’t. And whole new fields were created instead. Computer science, engineering, graphic design, chip manufacture, etc.
You are thinking in a narrow lens, looking at the future with the view only of the existent things in the present. You imagine AI as the supreme God over all, taking and taking until nothing is left… yet humanity and economics will adapt. New avenues will open up, new types of jobs, new ways of producing value for others. If AI depletes most existing jobs here on earth, then we will quite naturally push outward into the solar system around us, as we ought to already be doing BUT we cannot do because we are still so here-focused as a consequence of NOT having something like AI to seriously help us get over the need to be so ‘here-focused’.
And yeah, you under-estimate robots. You know the reason why the mass media is not really reporting on innovations and new robotics creations? Because this is the next Big Thing and it is being carefully planned and cultivated right now. Mass robot manufacture coupled with AI minds is going to literally EXPLODE across the entire world in a way we cannot even imagine.
And that will cause its own challenges and problems. Also its own opportunities and new doors opening that never, ever existed before for adding value to the world. And what is a “job” but a way of adding value to the world?
Air is free for being abundant to access at no cost. Water isn’t, although water is more abundant to access than is food. In a natural state of things absent society, that is.
What do you think a RIGHT is? Something another person is required to make for you so you can consume it? Oh I guess a couple dozen construction workers owe you an existence so they will build a home just for you to inhabit. And others will work to maintain that home for you so it stays in good shape. And still other people will work so hard to grow food and distribute it to you so you can consume that too.. but your RIGHTS do not stop there! Oh no, still MORE people are obligated to work so hard to provide you with healthcare, at no income to themselves of course, no cost to you, because you own their labor-power and their intellectual efforts and their very will and decision-making, they are forced to provide you with healthcare because that is your RIGHT. Because you cannot provide it for yourself, someone ELSE must be forced to provide it for you at no charge? Food, housing, clothing, clean water, medicine??
That is your idea of “rights”? Gimme a break dude.
It’s not even that you aren’t thinking about the future in open, creative terms of the NEW possibilities that will unfold as a consequence of new powerful technologies and which we CANNOT EVEN FATHOM in the present, as has always been the case throughout history… no, you are much worse than that. Your error is not one of ignorance or complacency, but one of pure evil. You wish to enslave countless others to provide you with the free means of your own living, because you refuse to provide for yourself.
Utter madness. You ought to be deeply ashamed, yet I know you are not. And for that, you should be far, far more ashamed.
A job is something you do to produce VALUE, and you are paid commensurately at market rates for the value you produce.
Flipping burgers or stacking shelves could be done by a robot, or a half-awake lobotomy patient.
You think a job is something that reality owes you and it should automatically pay you tons of money for? You have no understanding of value, markets and prices, supply and demand, let alone the inflation your silly idea would produce that invalidates it and contradicts itself entirely from the very start. Pay people $50 an hour to stack shelves or flip burgers? Sure, minimum wage is now $50 dollars, problem solved right! if that sort of logic worked we would never have needed to raise the minimum wage once such a silly rule was enacted. You know literally nothing about economics, and your general logical thinking ability is seriously weak.
But your emotions are flowing! So good job. Now try to channel that in something like a positive direction.
You think a job is something that reality owes you and it should automatically pay you tons of money for?
my entire argument is that people shouldn’t have to work jobs. Now you are saying some bullshit about “how I believe reality owes people jobs”, which is exactly the opposite of what im saying.
You know literally nothing about economics, and your general logical thinking ability is seriously weak.
and saying some new horseshit about how i dont understand economics when i understand it perfectly
Air is free for being abundant to access at no cost. Water isn’t, although water is more abundant to access than is food.
water is free though. People only pay for the city to clean water and provide pressured water to their house. But they can get free water by just going to a city fountain or to a pond and getting water.
What do you think a RIGHT is? Something another person is required to make for you so you can consume it?
Jordan Peterson says rights are someone’s responsibility. Im not a Jordan Peterson cuck so don’t call me a cuck of Jordan Peterson, I’m just saying thats what he says. But there are people of the general opinion that rights are somebody else’s responsibility
My opinion is, some rights are Natural rights (like the right to air, water, food, and land, or the right to free speech) and some rights are others responsibility (like the right to an ambulance or police if there is an emergency, the right to an attorney or the right to a fair trial, etc.)
The right to land and food would fall on Natural Rights, since other lifeforms can acquire land and food naturally without permission. The right to housing is a Human right or Artificial right since it requires someone else’s permission and responsibility.
Food rights (the right to hunt without permission) are currently restricted due to overpopulation concerns and thus overhunting concerns. Thus we live in some absurdity where people are denied a Natural right
It’s not even that you aren’t thinking about the future in open, creative terms of the NEW possibilities that will unfold as a consequence of new powerful technologies and which we CANNOT EVEN FATHOM in the present, as has always been the case throughout history… no, you are much worse than that. Your error is not one of ignorance or complacency, but one of pure evil. You wish to enslave countless others to provide you with the free means of your own living, because you refuse to provide for yourself.
it is you who cannot even fathom anything, obviously I am talking about free housing in the future once robots and Ai provide a UBI economy. Getting people to do free housing nowadays is obviously an absurdity since there is not enough VALUE in society to do that.
No. you are saying that reality owes people a means to free effortless existence, where they have no need to actually EARN their existence or contribute VALUE to the world around them.
That is you. Whether that comes in the form of a job or a UBI or something else, is irrelevant. But please feel free to keep deflecting from the critical point.
When other life forms in nature take land for themselves, territory, to live on.. you think it is just given to them? Nature extends a blessed kind hand and says “please take this land and resources and food shelter and water all for free because you DESERVE it merely for existing” ?? Wow. Just… wow. You have zero sense of the absolute predation, struggle, chaos, murder and violence in the natural world. Every inch of owned territory by some species in nature has been violently fought over and this is especially true the higher up the food chain those creatures are.
The “without permission” you mention is OUTRIGHT WARFARE AND VIOLENCE. But somehow humans can expect a free meal, a free ride, a silver platter and endless bountiful gifts of divine mercy from the world merely because we exist? Oh no, but then you also think you have the right to enslave doctors and nurses to your own life’s needs when you are sick, even if you don’t compensate them for their time effort and resources trying to give you health when you obviously failed in that circumstance to secure your own health for yourself. Naw, they are your SLAVES to do your bidding and save your life because you somehow deserve it, because you somehow are a magical special being who can have free everything in his life because everyone else in the world will just give it to you without bothering to ask you WHY precisely and where is your PERMISSION to steal all that stuff you want to claim as your RIGHT which comes at the direct cost of others.
I am done. Your inane ideas mean nothing since silly nonsense like that crap you say will never have any hold in reality, only in your own deluded emotional and psychotic fantasies. I’m glad you get to live inside the weird headspace of yours and clearly you seem to like it, that’s good. The human world is very kind, it allows subsistence for all sort of deluded people so long as they continue to earn their living at minimum level and actually CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING OF VALUE to the world around them. You know… not being a literal tick and parasite and THIEF stealing from others.
In any case, good luck and God bless someday when you mature a few more working brain cells we might be able to talk again.
more pointless drivel from you. Where is the dislike button?
And you call me emotional? When most of what you got is emotional drivel.
The “without permission” you mention is OUTRIGHT WARFARE AND VIOLENCE.
Hunting animals is not real warfare, it is just a form of violence. This is more pointless emotional drivel from you.
What I’m trying to say (and what you are failing to understand) is the amount of effort humans have to put in, is disproportionate to every other species. All any other species has to do is kill an animal, and then it has enough food for a week. Meanwhile a human has to work everyday like a robot just to survive.
The amount of effort a human has to do to have housing is disproportionate. Like a beaver has to pile up a few sticks and put some sticks together. Humans need a team of builders and miners and planners to work for months. After being educated for years. Other animals just dig a hole in the ground or pile up some materials quickly. (Also, humans attend school for decades while most other animals are automatic after they are born.)
And a human can’t just walk, like any other animal, because they are weak and need cars, and then need to work disproportionally to get one. And also must build clothes and wear them, unlike other animals that just exist.
Modern work is just a form of slavery. It is temporary slavery where someone agrees to be a slave for a set period of time in order to survive.
Oh no, but then you also think you have the right to enslave doctors and nurses to your own life’s needs when you are sick, even if you don’t compensate them for their time effort and resources trying to give you health when you obviously failed in that circumstance to secure your own health for yourself. Naw, they are your SLAVES to do your bidding and save your life because you somehow deserve it, because you somehow are a magical special being who can have free everything in his life because everyone else in the world will just give it to you without bothering to ask you WHY precisely and where is your PERMISSION to steal all that stuff you want to claim as your RIGHT which comes at the direct cost of others.
Again more emotional drivel of desperation because you are losing the argument. I am talking about a future society where Ai and robots take most of the jobs, and paying UBI from all the value they generate. This simple concept appears to be beyond your purview.
You think a human life is harder than the life of (pick any random animal out in the natural world)? Lol.
Animals in a state of nature are constantly on the edge of death, starvation, predation. They spend almost all of their time trying to get food and avoid being eaten. Humans sit around and watch Netflix.
“All they have to do is kill an animal” “Enough food for weeks”. Where are you getting this silly stuff? You romanticize and simplify the natural world into a literal cartoon. I’ve actually never seen anyone do that quite like you are doing. In your mind, do you see nature and the animals in it from the point of view of a Disney movie? Most people, and especially you as an efilist should understand that the natural world is a hellish brutal struggle of constant violence and imminent risk of starvation or predation or disease. Animals do NOT exist in a state of comfort and easy living like humans do by comparison. Even a human working at Burger King for 40 hours a week has an infinitely easier life compared to the squirrels and bugs and mice all around him out in a state of nature.
Naw, that’s just your own opinion and feeling because of whatever has influenced you in your personal life. Lots of people like their jobs, you know. Slavery is literally the opposite of having a job, since you are free to leave your job if you want to. You are also free to go find a way to support your own existence without needing a job, since you hate jobs so much. But that would require tons of hard work and things like planning, delayed gratification, applying your intelligence in an honest and objective manner. Reality itself does not tolerate much fantasy and delusion, and economics is one aspect of a more harsh reality compared to the coddling we humans get in terms of our social comforts and especially inside our own heads. With our comfy notions and silly ideas that we cling to, and which have no real bearing to reality itself outside of our own minds.
Bottom line, other than your weird cartoonish portrayal of the horrors of being an animal out in the natural world, is you think humans are special among all life and are OWED a FREE easy and comfortable existence for zero effort or work. You actually believe that… laziness-as-such is your philosophy on life. Truly amazing. Not only is that quite psychologically infantile and embarrassing for you, it is blatantly unrealistic and ignorant of the way reality actually works. No life gets to exist for free, there is no free lunch. To live requires a huge investment of work-effort, productively creating value either for yourself or others around you. Humans are lucky among all life on earth that we get to do this with a minimal cost to our personal lives.
You should really study history and learn how humans used to live… real desperation, real poverty and lack of opportunity, working 17 hours a day every day on farms for example. All the great stuff around us today and the relatively easy and comfortable and safe existences we have today are historically rare. Even if you have to work a full time job and another part time job on top of that, your life today is infinitely superior in terms of safety, comfort, pleasure and leisure time than 99% of all humans who came before you. Those prior humans existed a lot closer to a state of nature, like all the other animals still exist in. And being a cold, naked, hungry and alone little animal in a hugely dangerous natural world, forced to constantly search for food and avoid predators who are always trying to eat you, is not very fun.
if that sort of logic worked we would never have needed to raise the minimum wage once such a silly rule was enacted. You know literally nothing about economics, and your general logical thinking ability is seriously weak.
someday when you mature a few more working brain cells we might be able to talk again.