...Of Interest

This thread will cover a couple of concepts that coincide with Religion, one of whose origins are found outside of Religion.

  1. Heaven and Hell

  2. Bypassing Jesus

  3. It is interesting to note that the concept of a Heaven and Hell are not unique, or novel in the foundations of contemporary or ancient religions. In fact, these other-worldly places have their origins within Shamanism, whose practices were first translated by the Greeks and interpreted in a religious manner. Shamanism, by nature, is not a religion, nor is it based on a God or Gods in the same respect that we attribute Christianity to the divinity of Jesus and the one God. Shamanism dates as far back as the Zoroastrian periods where the first concept was founded under a polytheistic society—Both Heaven and Hell had their separate deities who presided over each respectively.

  4. According to the Trinitarian philosophy of Unity-in-Difference Jesus is within God and God is within Jesus, or vice-versa, and the Holy Spirit revolves around all or is within all. Fundamental Judeo-Christians will argue that it is necessary to follow Jesus in order to reach eternal salvation and Heaven, where as non-believers will find the depths of Hell as their only comfort in the afterlife. This, however, is utterly ridiculous when considering what the Trinity represents. If Jesus is divine, or has the characteristics of God by virtue of his relationship with God, then someone who worships God only is inherently worshipping Jesus as well in substance. For if Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then worshipping Jesus is worshipping God, and worshipping God is worshipping Jesus.

H=Heaven, J=Jesus, G=God.

~(J>H), but, [(J>G)>(G>H)].

[~(J>H)]: If you do not worship Jesus, then you will not find heaven.

[(J>G)]>[(G>H)]: If it is true that Jesus is God and you worship God, then you will find Heaven.

So, if God is Jesus and Jesus is God then: G>H. Worshipping God alone equals finding Heaven. We do not need Jesus in the end, for if Jesus is God, then all those who worship God are going to heaven.

The problem is that there are god, and gods and God, not to mention goddesses. There is a true God and many false ones.

Just calling something god does not mean you are referring to the same entity. One may call the sun, god, another a sacred tree, and yet another sees god in everything and everywhere, and yet another a nebulous philosophical concept that fills the gap in our understanding and knowledge.

People may even worship one god, and insist that there is only one god, but who is this god? Is the God of Judaism and Islam and Christianity the same god? Is Allah the same as Jesus’ Father? Do the Jews really know who Yahweh is? For if they did why didnt they recognise Jesus?

And thus I can reverse your argument: if everyone worship the same God, and God is equivalent to Jesus, then everyone should recognise that Jesus is God too. The problem is that people dont. The Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah, the Muslims cannot reconcile how can God ever become Man, and everybody else thinks Jesus is just a wise, virtuous man.

So now we have a test: if you accept that God is equivalent to Jesus, then we can now KNOW whether we are worshiping the SAME God or not, simply by asking the question: Who is Jesus Christ?

So we cannot bypass Jesus. We need Jesus to identify and separate the true God from all other false gods and pretenders.

The concept of the multiple Godheads is that one must take into account that God created God; therefore, it is not entirely implausible that these Gods and Goddesses are a manifestation of God. Of course, God is just a word we use to identify that entity with which we share a limited relationship, just as Yahweh, Jehovah, Puma, His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, are the words used in particular languages in particular instances in the Bible and other institutions. That is the basics of these words; they make no fundamental difference, and in this, create a component of Unity-in-Difference.

The problem with the recognition of Jesus is that since Jesus is God, in worshipping God, one recognizes Jesus’ divinity by nature of his relationship with/to God. So; the recognition of Jesus is superficial, in that, it is unnecessary because of the fact that Jesus is God. It is almost redundant. Fundamental Christians place too much emphasis on the concept of Jesus’ divinity that they make Jesus an almost separate entity from God, extricating Jesus from the value of the trinity as a whole. Without one leg a tripod ain’t a tripod. A believer in God does not, by value of his or her devotion to God, have to recognize Jesus as anything, because it is inherently implanted into the belief and devotion to God.

Jesus Christ does not identify the right God, because Jesus does not declare the right God in any of his proclamations. Jesus makes the claim that he is the one begotten son, but does not make a definitive claim as to which God he is the begotten son of—which equates to the fact that since Jesus is God, by virtue of worshipping any god, one is worshipping or following Jesus as well.

The answer to the test’s question is: Worshipping any God means that one is worshipping Jesus, and will reach Heaven regardless of the name(s) the person attributes to any God(s). The fact that Jesus does not affirm which God he is the son of, supports this. There are no pretenders.

In conclusion, we can bypass Jesus because in his relationship with God, it is possible to reach Heaven by merely worshipping God and preying directly to God. Preying and repenting to God is equal to repenting and preying to Jesus.

way to stick it to jesus immanuel

i would add to the huge pile of evidence disproving the importance of one religions god the fact that people on remote islands just plain dont have access to jesus.

therefore if god requires everyone to believe in jesus, he hates island people or has way too much faith in his missionaries.

argue with that, christians. argue. with. that.

ImmanuelAy,

You have not disagreed to the FACT that no two religions agree to the question, Who is Jesus Christ.

So I take it also that you also accept that the god or gods in these religions are different from the Christian God which is identical to Jesus Christ.

The plethora of gods and goddesses may indeed be a manifestation of some common god, but it is a different god from Jesus’ Father.

Do I understand you correctly?

And we not talking about whether Jesus is the ‘right’ god at all, but rather are the religions pursuing the SAME god?

OF COURSE all religions are pursuing the same god. the god in your head is the only god that exists. the mere act of submitting to a greater power is all that religion is. who you trust to deliver the specifics is a matter of circumstance.

if your born on an island, you will probably only worship the gods of the sun and trees, and the rules they force you to abide by are few if any, such as maybe sacrifice a fish every day. if your born in mid-evil(joke, not mispelling) europe, then well youve got a lot of rules that need following if you do in fact trust your local rich guy and what he says about god.

how can god expect us to follow specific rituals such as eat crackers or sacrifice a fish, when all over the world, somebody is doing something different. how can god possibly apply one set of rules to all people. you cant make unleavened bread on an island, you cant sacrifice fish if you dont catch them.

therefore if god expects us to follow him, he only wants us to follow those rules that apply to everybody with certainty. theres only one i can think of: treat your neighbor like yourself.

Then why none of them agree with each other?

At the very most only one is true, and the rest, if not all, false.

Futureman, seeking or worshiping God is not about rules, rules, rules. Follow this rule, follow that rule; one rule for this place, another for that island, and yet another for the mountains. Yes perhaps that is religion, for religion is nothing but rituals. And I hate religion!

But with Jesus we are not talking about religion or rules or rituals. There is none of that and there is no need for that. Instead it is constant and continuing relationship with a living God, one whom you are in constant communication (or converstation, or prayer) and communion (fellowship, unity) for each and every moment of time, for all times.

because they are stupid ethnocentric bigots. gods soulless automatons sent here to distract those of us who do have souls. sent here to lure us to the dark side of being content with the fact that we are a member of the ‘correct’ religion. and therefore dont have to worry about being better than muslims since we already are christian.

yes! the difference between religion and faith is like the difference between a pyramid scheme and loving your neighbor. very much like that in fact.

ok… you could interpret this paragraph as meaning that there is a magical, UNIQUE connection christians have with the greater thing. shutup if thats what you interpret.

what you could also interpret it as is the presence of logic, which then dictates that we should follow the goden rule. we are ‘in constant communication’ with god because we live in his universe. the universe follows rules. we can use those rules to infer that our neighbor wants to be treated like ourselves. thats the constant communication with god: the constant sensory and logical experience that tells us to treat our neighbor nicely.

any other magical connection to god, ESPECIALLY ONE THAT ONLY CHRISTIANS HAVE is a hopeless pathedic attempt to get to that which your priest describes with so much enthusiasm not because its real, but because he wants to encourage you to follow jesus’ message. if you believe that christians have a unique connection to god, then please explain to me why god did not think that native americans were worthy of the message until 1600 years after jesus showed up?

I do not need to recognize the fact that no two religions agree on the divinity of Jesus. It is important to note that all religions believe in God. If God is Jesus, and Jesus is God, then they are recognizing the divinity of Jesus from a Christian standpoint. There is no difference between any of the God(s) that each religion follows. The fundamental understanding is that God is a higher power. You are concentrating on a mundane aspect of the Godhead, and that is the name and characteristics given onto the manifestation of God. These differences are inherently moot. If the plethora of deities are a manifestation of the same God, then by all common logic, Jesus is also a manifestation of the same God that bears no difference to the commonality of the other deities.

Because: Jesus does not mention which God is his father. That, in and of itself, indicates that every God that humanity worships is Jesus’ father, therefore, no matter which God we worship, we are worshipping the right God, the same God and Jesus’ father all at once. In the end, all Gods are the same God by definition of the word, the characteristics that make the entity a God, and the fact that Jesus does not make any definitive claim as to who, or what, or which God, he is the Son of.

All religions believe in the fundamentality of God. God is powerful, God is this and God is that. The only separation in belief is whether or not God is knowable. And by all logic, since God is infinite, and we humans are finite, we cannot know god—we can assume.

Conclusion: It is superfluous to know which God is right because Jesus does not say which God is right. He claims that one God is right, but does not specify whether or not God is God, or if God is Allah or Yahweh. So, there is only one God, true, but it does not matter whether we follow Yahweh because Yahweh is God, and God is Jesus, and Jesus is God, so we worship God no matter which name we give it.

the problem is theres many idiots in the world who believe in the importance of rituals. such as which chants do you repeat endlessly, what kind of crackers do you eat, what does your building look like, whats the logo.

i guess well have to wait and see and maybe somebody will trick everyone into believing that he is gods nephew-in-law and then explain to them how all of their religions are the same. and then then ill rule the world.

You miss the point that Christians believe in the three hypostases of divine reality: the trinity- which it is agreed is a hierarchical structure.

The validity and distinction of the Christian God from those other gods youo mention is that He, like Jesus, assumes a role in the Trinity.

This answers youor earlier point about Jesus praying to God. He prayed to Him because, while Jesus and God are the same, they are not of the same person (of the trinity).

Jesus does not specify which God is his father because it is implicit that this ‘God’ is distinguishable from other gods as the God of Moses- in whose Jewish tradition Jesus arrives as a represenattive of.

In what way is this logical? Just becasue a circle is infinite doesn’t mean I can’t ‘know’ it as such any less than I could a square with finite measurements.

Allah didnt exist in the time of Jesus! At least not as a distinctive entity…

I haven’t missed that point Gav, I actually mentioned it in one of my earlier posts, concerning the very hierarchy of the trinity—not with exact words. Yes, the trinity is a hierarchy, BUT, that is a component of the Unity-in-Difference. The problem is that fundamental Christians use this hierarchy to separate Jesus from God. That was not intended. The Trinity’s component characters are not to be separate as individual members, but as the difference in the Unity. Jesus—the flesh, God—the Father and the Holy Spirit—The Holy Spirit.

The fact that Jesus is in the trinity does not separate God from other non-Christian Gods. In fact, it only implies that Christians, since the 4th century, have chosen these specific components as manifestations of God, denying all others because of personal bias. It is not implicit that God is the God of Moses. Christians have interpreted this to connect the philosophy of their beliefs with their “personal” deity. If Jesus had said, “Moses was right, that is the right God that you must follow.” Then I wouldn’t have much of a problem. Humanity has assumed a lot about God, though, and has proclaimed these assumptions as unyielding truths that cannot be denied.

However, the fact still remains that Jesus did not mention which God was his father and it is literally blasphemous to claim that we know which God he was making reference to. For, only God knows what God thinks.

Are you really comparing the notion of an infinite God to a circle, by whose definitions are different? You are concentrating on one of the mechanisms of infinite, in that it is endless. This is the only connection you can make between the two. However, as an infinite being God is not limited to, or limited by anything. A circle is limited by the fact that it is 360 degrees, was made by mankind and does end at a point, it is merely a moot point to find out where. Infinite as a characteristic of God implies that God is greater than any arbitrarily assigned value. A circle has been assigned a value—it is limited, hence, not infinite, more or less indefinite.

When comparing God to Allah etc. I was making reference to the fact that they are just names that we use to refer to the higher being we call God. God is merely the Anglicized version of these names, just as Allah and all others are of specific value to the people in the regions through which the words are used to identify the same higher being.

How do you establish this? What are your reasons for asserting so?

Why not powers? How did you arrive at this ‘understanding’? You have not shown me any reason whatsoever for me to agree with you.

This is precisely what you have persistently failed to comprehend.

What you have written here is just one whole long list of unreasoned and logically unsupported assertions after assertions. You might have spoken Martian and it would not have made any difference.

But he did say that if you know the Father you would recognised him, and also Jesus said that Jews were not worshipping his Father, but rather the devil. So here we have evidence of at least one instance that the Father of Jesus is different from the god of the Jews.
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Jesus does not specify which God is his father because it is implicit that this ‘God’ is distinguishable from other gods as the God of Moses- in whose Jewish tradition Jesus arrives as a represenattive of.

The above is the crux of the problem of your argument.

You’ve also made a couple of factual errors regarding the trinity:

The Classic Trinity problem (I like to call it).

a) Jesus is in some sense separate from God insofar as God is Father.

b) Doctrinally, the three members of the trinity are kept separate and have been so by Christian theologians since the 2nd century days of Origen and Clement.

c) In formulations of the trinity, Jesus’ property varies: is he logos for instance? This is an example of the appropriation of neoplatonic philosophy in christian doctrine.

These factors undermine the validity of the above quote. We are in agreement though that the trinity exists as a unity.

This is wrong. It is not a question of ‘personal bias’ but of religious orthodoxy.

a) Jesus is a Jew. He consults elders in the synagogue as a youngster.
b) He refers to old testament (torrah) passages concerning his coming, eg. the one in Malachi.
c) He surrounds himself with Jews.

It is surely self evident from this that Jesus was acting in the tradition of the God of the Jewish scriptures.

I don’t agree. There is a strong case to be made that we have direct access to the ‘thought’ or ‘metaphysic’ of God through scripture/revelation.

This is interesting. But in hindsight I should have made a more fundamental point: where does it say that God is infinite. It sounds like youo’ve conflated omnipotence and omniscience with infiniteness. There is a marked distinction.

Agreed but it was out of context.

In conclusion, you’ve got some way to go to convince me…

hey gav is this the argument you wish you had in my thread or what!

I’m sure our paths will cross again.

For Chanbengchin:

The conflict between religions is not concerned with whether or not there is a God. Each monotheistic and polytheistic religion will agree that there is a deity, if not a number of them that preside over life. The hierarchy of these deities, when considering polytheism, is apparent as well, indicating that one of these Gods is the “best” of each. An example of this is the Mahadevas of the Hindu faith. So, I establish that there is no difference in the fundamental concept of a deity—God, there are merely variations of the same thing. A crude analogy would be the fact that a chair is a chair, no matter how many legs there are, or how padded it is, or how long it is, the purpose of the chair is still there. It is the same with God. God serves a purpose that all religions base their faiths on. The fact that God serves a purpose is the connection between each religion.

I did not use the word powers because, if we follow the doctrine that God has manifested itself to a people, why could it not manifest itself to other peoples in different ways? In worshipping separate Gods, we end up worshipping the one God.

The use of “by all common logic”, referred to that particular sentence only. Something as finite as human beings, and as finite I mean limited and flawed, cannot understand something as infinite and indescribable as God. Voltaire once said, “You know him through translations: but poets are not translatable. Can one translate music?” (Voltaire, 1754). I believe in that general principle. And what I have previously written isn’t, in actuality, unsupported. Both my parents agree with me, and my father has a PhD in Philosophy in religion, teaches at the Christian Theological School (CTS) in Indianapolis, before that, taught at the United Theological College in the West Indies (UTC). He received his bachelor’s in divinity from Columbia University, got a full scholarship to the Claremont Graduate Schools, and finished his Doctoral works at the latter. My mother has her PhD in Biblical Interpretation. She graduated from Emory University, where she got her bachelors in Religious-Psychology, and received a scholarship to the Claremont Graduate Schools as well. She finished her PhD there. Finally, they are both on the World Council of Churches. So I am not speaking out of my ass here.

Lastly, I am not arguing against the divinity of Jesus, nor the fact that we need Jesus to find God. I am arguing that if Jesus is indeed God, then using Jesus as a mediator is the same thing as using God as a mediator. Using that quote helps my argument when I say that if Jesus is God, then it was basically God speaking through Jesus and nothing more. And if God was speaking through Jesus, then we can rewrite it with:

“… and God answered, “I am the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me. ”” Which makes perfect sense, although redundant, when you think about it. You seem to be mistaking this argument as if it is my argument. I am merely saying that IF Jesus is et cetera, we can bypass the symbolic recognition.

For Gavtmcc:

Jesus is only separate insofar as God is the Father, and that is as far as it goes. In separation creates the primary component of unity-in-difference. That is basically what it means. Separate, but equal, unequal in quality, but balanced as a whole. I cannot argue against the line of questioning concerning Jesus as logos or other. It is important to note that nowhere in Scripture does it say that the words within Scripture are inspired, though. We can’t even say definitively that inspired has anything to do with God-breathed. In fact, the possibility that these inspirations could be more similar to a woman to a love poem than someone “Standing” over the author’s shoulders and telling them what to write, is very high.

Jesus also kills a young boy while playing with him, but quickly brings him back to life before the boy’s parents find out (The Book of Thomas, n.d.). There are many instances where Jesus abuses his powers to benefit himself. Why I use these as examples: We cannot really say whether or not Jesus, in fact, was educated by synagogue-clergy. It is plausible that he was taught by a tutor—his father was, after all, the third wealthiest man in the world while Jesus was still living with him.

I can’t argue against the fact that Jesus surrounded himself with Jews. Question: Should he have surrounded himself with Christians (Sarcasm intended)?

The only way one can know what God thinks or intends is if that person is God. To proclaim oneself as God is blasphemous. In final argument; I am not meshing omniscience with omnipotence. BUT, if we attribute these qualities to God, then we must assume that God is either infinite, or indefinite. And although indefinite is a better suited word to phrase God—since we really know nothing about the entity in reality—the very fact that we call God, “God”, indicates that we are attributing infinite qualities onto that entity.

To ImmanuelAy,

Our fundamental disagreement is that you say there is only one God and all other god, gods and goddesses that are out there yesterday, today and to be imagined or created tomorrow, even the philosophical god of the gap, are but manifestation of this one same God.

I disagree to this.

You have simply asserted it, and in no way have you argued why it is so, such as showing that there MUST be only one God and that it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be false gods. But you may have other reasons. If so what are these?!

And my REASON for disagreement are two:

  1. Jesus said he is the ONLY way to God. This means NO other way or ways, ie all other gods are shams. You have to show that Jesus is a sham himself to refute this.

  2. If all the gods are the same as Jesus, how come they disagree on who Jesus is.

You have not refute these reasons. You simply asserted (again) to the effect that they are irrelevant. If that is so then we are as good as speaking in different tongues, and certainly we cannot make any conversation.

So please either refute my reasons or established yours for why all gods are manifestation of the same one god. Then we have started to talk.

Hi Chan,

I know you like to avoid me, but I have to step in here.

  1. ‘John’ said that Christ said that he was the only way to God, the synoptic Gospels miss that out. Besides which, there are even different ways of reading his statement. It is all about the Disciples difficulty in understanding the ‘Way’ of Jesus.
    He says, “Where I go, you know, and you know the way.”
    But Thomas says to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
    Jesus says to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him.”

This has been said to mean that Jesus is the prime example of trust in the Grace of God, and only by faith in that Grace can we live and follow the Law and that’s the truth. It is the ‘Way’ that he has demonstrated all the time - Thomas seems to be the ‘doubting Thomas’ all through the Gospel attributed to John. ‘Had he’ known Christ, he would have know the Father. Some scholars are beginning to see this Gospel as the opposition to the Gospel of Thomas and the message here as a message for the Gnostics who held on to that Gospel.

If that is so, and there is a lot to speak for it, perhaps it would be dangerous to make such a directed statement into ‘universal truth’ for all.

  1. What ‘gods’ disagree on who Jesus is? Surely there are no other ‘gods’?

Shalom
Bob