A mind that exists! That’s one reason why I think the timeline is whole. I compare that mind to our mind and how we can’t make things exist physically out of nothing. And that’s because they never did. They always exist(ed), but not without a beginning. It just started whole, and God is as in control of shaping the body of the universe as we are in control of shaping our body, except he is even more in control because he is omniscience, and there is zero part of which he is not conscious at any time. He limits his power because the true power is love, so he doesn’t “remote” (not remote at all) control us (besides keeping us in physical existence unless we choose not to exist physically) unless that is something we want, or we have revoked our consent by violating the consent of others [it’s a goose=gander thing… we give him permission to do the things to us we think are OK for us to do to others (not that he would actually do all of it)… what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven… so maybe we should do the whole “on earth as it is in heaven” thing instead? … or am I getting too loosy goosy with my hermeneutics? …or righty tighty? hehe snort]
Jupiter123 wrote:
Thoughts exist gib and come in two forms.Automated thoughts and Manual thoughts.Its important to differentiate between the two.
← Well, let’s get into the difference. That requires first explaining what automated thoughts are and second what manual thoughts are. But I don’t need to tell you that, now do I Jupe. →
The automated thoughts of the lifeless binary processing biological machine body ← You really need to shorten your terms. → need to exist to claim that they don’t exist.
← d’uh →
You are separate from and more than Automated and Manual thoughts.
More than both? What are they anyway? You know, I have an idea. Why don’t you explain what they are.
Jupiter123 wrote:
You have the sense TOUCH as well.Don’t underestimate the sense TOUCH because it’s what differentiates between the in and out of the moment consciousness states which you “toggle” (vibration) backwards and forwards between in any given moment.
I’m just gonna put that one on the shelf for now where it will be safe and sound and we can come back to it later.
Jupiter123 wrote:
You can control consciousness and in doing so control thoughts.
d’uh.
Jupiter123 wrote:
Atheists live in their heads “prisoners of consciousness”
We all live in our heads, Jupe. No getting out.
Jupiter123 wrote:
You go within and then come back out again all the time IN ANY GIVEN MOMENT ….don’t just go within and remain unaware of when you have come back out again.Learn more about consciousness and your relationship to it.Control your goings in and your comings back out again.KNOW!!! when you have gone within and KNOW!!! when you have come back out again.You think in the inward consciousness state….Learn to think in the outward consciousness state as well.
That sounds like a whole philosophy in and of itself. I’ll put that one of the shelf too so we can concentrate strictly on spinning particles, N and S, and how those related to electromagnitism. ← That by itself seems a monstrous task to overcome.
Jupiter123 wrote:
Awareness is not Consciousness gib.
←
→
The SELF is aware of the vibratory nature of consciousness and controls it.
← Not this self. →
The SELF interprets varying frequency electromagnetic energy waves emitted from vibrating matter.
← I remember we discussed this before. If the self is interpreting these varying frequency electro- whatevers, it’s not aware that they are in fact varying frequency electro-thingi-majigi-whatevers →
The “I am” is separate from SELF.
So if I say “I am gib”, that’s not my self?
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Ichthus77 wrote:
A mind that exists!
Interesting point! I have a short response and a long one.
Short: a mind can exist within itself, can it not?
Long: a mind (or consciousness) doesn’t exist like a thing exists in the universe. If the universe is a box, then everything that exists are it’s contents. But mind is not like this. Mind is the basis for things to exist (it is the material of the box itself). In my book, I go so far as to say that mind is basis–not a basis, not the basis, but the very essence of “basis” itself. (This was my whole argument for why mind belongs at the base of every reductive hierarchy.) So minds don’t exist in the universe, they define the universe.
I’ll reply to the rest of your post later. On a first read, it seems I’ll have to pick it apart (like I’m doing with Jupe’s posts) as it raises so many questions (but at least I know you can answer questions, Itchy. 
).
And you may ask yourself:
…is it not your mind?
Awaiting your further questions.
1.You hear music….because electromagnetic energy waves are converted into sound.This music is stored within your brain organ memory banks and can be replayed back to you as required..You ain’t gonna get your musical instruments out yourself and attempt to replicate the music are you.Musical thoughts are replayed back to you automatically.
2.You’re not thoughts gib.Automated thoughts consist of sounds and visions ONLY.Thoughts are way down the psychological hierarchy just above emotions.You ENGAGE with automated thoughts.You don’t ENGAGE with manual thoughts.
3.The SELF sits above awareness.
4.Awareness sits above consciousness and is separate from it.Consciousness sits above thoughts and is separate from them.Thoughts sit above emotions and are separate from them.
5.As I have mentioned before in other posts the difference between the in and out of the moment consciousness states is the sense TOUCH.You don’t experience the sense touch in the out of the moment state of consciousness (STUCK IN YOUR HEAD!!!) .You only experience the sense touch in the in the moment consciousness experience (NOT STUCK IN YOUR HEAD).
6.Don’t remain MUTE!!!….Internally talk to yourself and listen to yourself talking to yourself.KNOW the sound of your own internal VOICE!!!
7.Be more AWARE of your ENGAGEMENTS with automated thoughts.
8.Train yourself to think MANUAL thoughts in the in the in moment consciousness state (NOT STUCK IN YOUR HEAD).
I know……a lot to digest/take in…….all good stuff though I promise you…..and all derived from +/-=+/- philosophy.
Individuals want to know what represents REALITY now….they are no longer interested in the misrepresentations of reality (illusionary) views of it, as claimed by the religious cult of atheistic Santa Science.
The claim that you exist and are a misrepresentation of reality (an illusion) is farcical.
This is the claim of many atheists.
Your theory has a flawed logical premise. You are saying that consciousness exists, because being exists everywhere. It is sleight of hand word games. “consciousness exists everywhere, because everywhere there exists being.” If I were to properly translate the argument, your argument is a tautology which states “consciousness exists everywhere, because everywhere there exists consciousness.”
The consciousness that we know of is localized to our bodies. But I don’t believe that it starts and stops at the brain. I believe even the blood coursing through our veins experiences something. I believe the planets orbiting our Sun have consciousness. I believe every atom and molecule feels some quality of subjective experience.
You have a lot of beliefs but very little proof or justification of them lol.
For starters we know that Consciousness is a Unity. Consciousness unifies all the encoded data into the brain into 1 unified visual field. Consciousness is able to see an image. Consciousness functions like a lens, a lens creates an image focused into 1 point, a point with size 0.
I maintain that we actually do experience everything that every other physical system to which we are connected experiences. That is, we are conscious of it experientially. But we are not epistemically conscious of them. We feel them but we don’t know it.
We feel everything that our nerves, nervous system, is connected to, because our nervous system is connected to our Consciousness… If an organ isn’t connected to the nervous system then we don’t feel it… There are some parts of the body that don’t feel pain. We don’t feel the deaths of the 330 billion cells that die every day.
Ichthus77 wrote:
gib wrote: a mind can exist within itself, can it not?
And you may ask yourself:
gib wrote: So if I say “I am gib”, that’s not my self?
…is it not your mind?
I’m not sure I understand your question. Is my self not my mind? Well, I believe the self is part of one’s mind, definitely.
Ichthus77 wrote:
Awaiting your further questions.
Well, then, let’s not waste any time! 
Ichthus77 wrote:
A mind that exists! That’s one reason why I think the timeline is whole. ← As opposed to incomplete? → I compare that mind ← That mind? So you think of the timeline as a mind? → to our mind and how we can’t make things exist physically out of nothing. And that’s because they never did. They always exist(ed), but not without a beginning. ← So the law of conservation of matter and energy. → It just started whole ← Sure, in the sense that all matter and all energy that ever existed was there at the beginning. → , and God is as in control of shaping the body of the universe as we are in control of shaping our body, except he is even more in control because he is omniscience, and there is zero part of which he is not conscious at any time. ← That is a rather crude way of describing what I believe as well, but I think it’s important not to anthropomorphize God, and very carefully define terms like “omniscience”, “control”, “body”, etc., such that they don’t quite mean the same as what they mean in the human context. → He limits his power because the true power is love, so he doesn’t “remote” (not remote at all) control us (besides keeping us in physical existence unless we choose not to exist physically) unless that is something we want, or we have revoked our consent by violating the consent of others [it’s a goose=gander thing… we give him permission to do the things to us we think are OK for us to do to others (not that he would actually do all of it)… what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven… so maybe we should do the whole “on earth as it is in heaven” thing instead? … or am I getting too loosy goosy with my hermeneutics? …or righty tighty? hehe snort]
While I don’t necessarily subscribe to the view that “God is love”, I sure hope you’re right. I remain agnostic as to what God experiences or what He is in essence, but my theory doesn’t rule out love (though it would have to be a form of love we as human’s aren’t familiar with or even able to imagine). I’m not Christian, and I wasn’t raised religiously at all. I’m primarily a philosopher (at least here at ILP) who came up with a theory of mind and consciousness, and through that, was lead to God (that is, my concept of “God” which is unique to my philosophy). So on the subject of whether or not God “controls” us, or sustains our existence through his will, or prepares a place for us in Heaven or Hell, I choose to remain silent.
Also, what’s hermeneutics?
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Jupiter123 wrote:
1.You hear music….because electromagnetic energy waves are converted into sound.This music is stored within your brain organ memory banks ← so… your brain → and can be replayed back to you as required..You ain’t gonna get your musical instruments out yourself and attempt to replicate the music are you. ← of course not, silly
Upon much reflection, I have to concede that I agree.
Jupiter123 wrote:
2.You’re not thoughts gib. ← Are my thoughts at least a part of me? → Automated thoughts consist of sounds and visions ONLY. ← Only? Do the other senses not play a part? → Thoughts are way down the psychological hierarchy just above emotions. ← The “psychological hierarchy”, you say. Can you draw that out? → You ENGAGE with automated thoughts.You don’t ENGAGE with manual thoughts.
So I guess you’re thinking of automated thoughts like images that appear before you (before the mind’s eye). They aren’t a part of you but you can engage with them directly. Manual thoughts, on the other hand, are you (I presume), and so you don’t engage with them but embody them. And I presume manual thoughts are more than sound and vision (more than any sensation) and consist of abstraction, conceptualization, and understanding. ← How’m I doing so far?
Jupiter123 wrote:
3.The SELF sits above awareness.
Is this part of the psychological hierarchy? So from top to bottom, one would encounter the above psychological entities in this order: self → awareness → thoughts → emotions (maybe skipping certain entities in between). And when it comes to thoughts, any particular order for automated vs. manual?
Jupiter123 wrote:
4.Awareness sits above consciousness and is separate from it.Consciousness sits above thoughts and is separate from them.Thoughts sit above emotions and are separate from them.
Ah, so here’s the update: self → awareness → consciousness → thoughts → emotions
Jupiter123 wrote:
5.As I have mentioned before in other posts the difference between the in and out of the moment consciousness states is the sense TOUCH.You don’t experience the sense touch in the out of the moment state of consciousness (STUCK IN YOUR HEAD!!!) ← Easy there, cowboy → .You only experience the sense touch in the in the moment consciousness experience (NOT STUCK IN YOUR HEAD). ← STOP YELLING AT ME!!! →
So the out moment is when you’re in your head (focusing on your inner world) and the in moment is when you’re attending to the outer world. Got it! But why no sense of touch in the out moment?
Jupiter123 wrote:
6.Don’t remain MUTE!!!….Internally talk to yourself and listen to yourself talking to yourself.KNOW the sound of your own internal VOICE!!!
Will do first thing tomorrow morning.
Jupiter123 wrote:
7.Be more AWARE of your ENGAGEMENTS with automated thoughts.
That I’ll do in the afternoon.
Jupiter123 wrote:
8.Train yourself to think MANUAL thoughts in the in the in moment consciousness state (NOT STUCK IN YOUR HEAD).
So thinking while attending to the outer world. I think most people do that anyway. It’s just that it’s hard to separate out your thoughts from your perceptions of the world in the moment. They mesh seamlessly (more or less) in a unified experience.
Jupiter123 wrote:
I know……a lot to digest/take in…….all good stuff though I promise you…..and all derived from +/-=+/- philosophy.
← Can’t go wrong with that! →
Individuals want to know what represents REALITY now….they are no longer interested in the misrepresentations of reality (illusionary) views of it, as claimed by the religious cult of atheistic Santa Science.
I noticed you recently started adding that word, Santa. Is that because I used the word satanic, and in a stroke of genius, you rearrange the letters to spell Santa? So it’s like a double whammy. Their science is evil AND made up.
In regards to your point, is this why you say Santa science is dead? And your +/-=+/- philosophy (science and psychology) is the new sheriff in town? What do you think triggered this shift? What event in history? Was it the cultural revolution of the 60s? Trump’s ascent into power? When you joined ILP?
Jupiter123 wrote:
The claim that you exist and are a misrepresentation of reality (an illusion) is farcical.
Certainly makes me laugh.
Jupiter123 wrote:
This is the claim of many atheists.
As well as anyone who claims to be something other than what the true science says they are. So just being wrong subjects you to membership in this camp.
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futureone wrote:
Your theory has a flawed logical premise. You are saying that consciousness exists, because being exists everywhere. It is sleight of hand word games. “consciousness exists everywhere, because everywhere there exists being.” If I were to properly translate the argument, your argument is a tautology which states “consciousness exists everywhere, because everywhere there exists consciousness.”
Not quite. The premise is “every physical action or change whatsoever comes with some quality of subjective experience.” Since physical actions and change are everywhere in the universe, we can conclude (from the premise) that subjective experience is everywhere.
futureone wrote:
You have a lot of beliefs but very little proof or justification of them lol.
Proof, no. Justification? Meh.
futureone wrote:
For starters we know that Consciousness is a Unity. Consciousness unifies all the encoded data into the brain into 1 unified visual field. Consciousness is able to see an image. Consciousness functions like a lens, a lens creates an image focused into 1 point, a point with size 0.
That’s not universal to all forms of consciousness. Our consciousness converges information (mainly sensory data) to a “central hub”, so to speak (which is more or less the cognitive centers) and that’s reflected in the way the brain is structured, how it’s neural connections are organized. And yes, it is a “unity” of sorts.
But what if not all information found its way to the central hub, to our conscious thoughts? Wouldn’t we have to say that not all consciousness unifies. And how would we know? If it doesn’t find its way to our conscious thoughts, we would never be conscious of it. In fact, there are structures in the human brain that do process information (via a neural network) but don’t send any signals to the cognitive centers. The cerebellum, for example. Involved in gross learned movements (i.e. how a professional basket ball player makes a slam dunk), the cerebellum has its own business to take care of, and doesn’t need to report its data to the cognitive centers. So we don’t “feel” anything in the cerebellum. It just works on “auto-pilot” so to speak. Or at least we don’t know if we feel anything. ← And that’s my point. Our inability to feel anything from the cerebellum (or at least know that we feel anything) is not a good indication that it feels nothing. It could be its own mind, its own consciousness (they do call it the “little brain” after all).
Try that argument on another human being, and you’ll see why it fails. I don’t feel anything inside that other guy’s head. He’s in severe pain, you say? Meh. It’s cool. I don’t feel it. In fact, we have no reason to believe he feels anything at all. I don’t feel anything, therefore there isn’t anything. Why should I believe he has a mind? There’s no proof. ← You see the problem?
futureone wrote:
We feel everything that our nerves, nervous system, is connected to, because our nervous system is connected to our Consciousness… If an organ isn’t connected to the nervous system then we don’t feel it… There are some parts of the body that don’t feel pain. We don’t feel the deaths of the 330 billion cells that die every day.
See, now this sounds to me like a series of assumptions without any proof. They’re the common assumptions that most cultures around the world make, probably because of how intuitive they seem, so I don’t blame you for making them. But if you look at this from my perspective–that for all the things we don’t feel any sensation or experience from (like the cells in one’s body when they die)–it’s more of an unknown than evidence of the absence of consciousness. We don’t feel anything from the kidneys, for example, but what that tells me is not that the kidneys have no experience but that it is unknown whether they have experience or not. It’s like peering into a dark room and not seeing anything. One person will conclude that the room is empty. Another will conclude that it is unknown whether the room contains anything or not. From that perspective, therefore, it’s 50/50. A 50% chance that things other than my brain possess consciousness of some sort, and a 50% chance that they don’t. So to me, it’s not a matter of one possibility requiring evidence and the other not. They both require evidence before we can draw any conclusions.
BTW, the death of cells in the body wouldn’t necessarily come along with pain. Pain is associated with very specific neuro-chemical processes in the brain (specifically localized to the somatosensory cortex, I believe to c-fibres). Those processes are very different from cells dying. So cells dying would probably come with a different quality of experience. What would that quality be? Well, this is where my treatment on qualities having no limits comes into play (you must remember that as you criticized it in another thread). There is already a vast diversity of qualities in the experiences we know of: color perception, depth, motion, auditory sensations, speech comprehension, musical appreciation, touch sensations like pain and pleasure, cold and hot, hard and soft, smell and taste, and then there’s more abstract experiences such as thoughts, visualizations, memories, emotions like happiness or anger, and so on and so forth. Now this variety of qualities, though vast, is still limited to neuro-chemical events in our brains. Imagine how much more diverse they would have to be if they were associated with processes that aren’t even neural. The death of cells in our bodies, for example, would most likely be associated with qualities of experience that we can’t even imagine (most likely not pain). We don’t know what those qualities are, but if you read the central principle of my theory, you’d know that they feel qualitative, real, and meaningful (the 3 fundamental descriptors of any experience).
Time can be infinite and whole, while one configuration of the physical can have a beginning.
Do you think the body of the universe (mass/energy) is the timeline?
Seems you do:
Why?
I’m glad you don’t hope the opposite.
How were you led to your concept of a not-love god? I hope know you’re wrong. Does your philosophy rule out a God of love (if so, how/why?)? (And) If so… doubt your philosophy.
Anyone new to this thread should go back and read my replies up until gib enters it… and my first couple replies to him.
…intriguing.
Here is proof that you absolutely don’t control consciousness until you actually do.
Bring yourself into the moment and see how long you can stay there before you default back out of the moment again.You need to start controlling consciousness ALL of the time in every given moment.You need to be flying the plane ….it shouldn’t be left to operate on autopilot all the time.
This is the starting point for +/-=+/- philosophy…..This is when you transition from being an observer to being a player.
You have to introduce CONTROL of consciousness to become a player…..otherwise you simply DO operate automatically all the time.
Introducing control of consciousness is the individuals proof that they (SELF) exist separate from the mechanical workings of their binary processing biological machine physical body.
The individual needs to take control of the vibratory consciousness experience in order to understand the psychological.
+/-=+/- is a PRACTICAL philosophy…..It’s a philosophy that translates into practical exercises that make sense to the individual.
FORGET THOUGHTS!!!……..The above exercises have got nothing to do with thoughts.
Are you trying to control my consciousness? Why don’t you worry about your own consciousness?
I’m not trying to control your consciousness Ichthus.l am merely pointing out that if you don’t control consciousness all the time then you will operate automatically.
This IS reality…..I know you have a problem with reality…….you prefer misrepresentations of it.
Futureone believes my philosophy is BullShite Ichthus….….lets continue to embarrass him/her shall we.Lets start bringing things closer to home….lets make it personal so it makes more sense.
The issue for many individuals is that they have never spent a period of time trying to control consciousness all the time, so they are not aware of how difficult it is to do.It is only when the individual does try to control the consciousness experience that they realise the VIBRATORY!!! nature of it because is doesn’t matter how many times you bring yourself into the moment you will always default back out of the moment again and then you have to bring yourself back into the moment again.
At the psychological level this is vital information to be AWARE!!! of philosophically.
Automated thoughts are received from the external physical.This information is generated from vibration.The SELF engages with automated thoughts (which are a combination of sounds and visions).
Manual thoughts are generated by the SELF.The SELF does not engage with manual thoughts.
The SELF is neither automated or manual thoughts.
Its important to differentiate between the two types of thought.
You are AWARE of the sense TOUCH in the in the moment (NOT STUCK IN YOUR HEAD) consciousness state when you are generating MANUAL thoughts.
You are not AWARE of the sense TOUCH in the out of the moment (STUCK IN YOUR HEAD) consciousness state when you have engaged with AUTOMATED thoughts.
The cultural shift from +=- and -=+ philosophy to +/-=+/- philosophy is here right now….that’s all that matters.I can only conclude that God decides when all things happen.
+/-=+/- philosophy is the new sheriff in town now whether any of us like it or not.
Just an aside to emphasise the importance of the sense TOUCH,have a look at Michelangelo’s painting on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel (God/Adam)
Not that I am advocating the Catholic Church teachings in any way.I don’t agree with it……I keep trying to tell Ichthus not to jump over the fence into the sheepfold with is good works because of what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23…he’s not convinced yet though.
Sometimes I am, actually. I can interrupt them by thinking something else.
I can also mess them up by trying to hum them if they are music…if it’s not something I’m used to humming.
Pretty sure that’s true for everyone.
If I get too many streams going I take a nap & force quit them.
Why do you think that cuts off awareness of touch? Thinking is feeling.
The automated state includes both the in and out of the moment consciousness states Ichthus.
You “toggle” backwards and forwards between the two automatically.
There is not control of consciousness introduced by the SELF though.
No. I have to force quit.
Ok…..so your are introducing some sort of control over consciousness then…..that’s good ….better than no control whatsoever.
Sir. If you were OUT of the moment, you wouldn’t fricken know it.
Of course the individual is aware of the out of the moment consciousness state….….Buddhist meditate in the out of the moment (STUCK IN THE HEAD) consciousness state ONLY!!! as an example,completely neglecting the in the moment (NOT STUCK IN THE HEAD) consciousness state.So we know all the conclusions that they come to are BS…..These individuals exist and claim to be a misrepresentation of reality (an illusion) which we all know is farcical.
They know nothing about REALITY philosophy ,science or psychology.
Nope. Wherever you go, there it is now. If you have other experiences than now — they are being brought to you like (pre)memories. Even if you are in more than one moment, it is now to you.