On Descartes

“Whatever I have until now accepted
as most true I have acquired either
from the senses or through the senses.”

With this statement what we understand as Descartes seems to believe it is beginning an inquiry into the nature of its own existence at its foundations. This is not true. Instead, it is starting with at least five concepts in action, including those of the “I,” “time,” “choice,” “truth,” and “perception.”

The first Meditation is supplemented with the subscript “What can be called into doubt.” This is significant insofar as Descartes understands its project as aiming toward the complete demolition of its opinions; the very idea strikes of nihilism, solipsism, the very core of perception. However, it does not completely deconstruct; in fact, it seems rather aloof about the matter, as when it remarks that the task had seemed “enormous” to it in the past. It seems to think that deconstruction entails in some way the isolation of each and every belief and the subsequent “doubting” of each of these beliefs in turn. It is for this very reason that Descartes’ point of departure chiefly concerns the process of doubting, but what it overlooks is the baggage that doubt brings with it - namely, that the process of doubting necessitates there first exist a discernible concept of truth.

It makes no sense to “doubt” if the concepts of “truth” and “falsehood” are not simultaneously active. In this connection we can understand how Descartes’ deconstruction is incomplete at best: without acknowledging that it is operating within a frame that assumes the existence of truth and falsehood, it has exposed a missing link, and this is why, in turn, the statement we are considering the point of departure is so utterly unsubstantiated: it is impossible for Descartes to substantiate that specific block of information because it cannot (or is unwilling to) reveal the nature of truth to itself. That is, the missing link is the hows and whys of Descartes’ dualism and rationalism.

Its goal is to “critique the senses,” and it does so admirably, but this, too, represents a leap. Indeed, it is a matter of complete indifference if what the senses present to consciousness is “true.” If the waters aren’t already murky enough thanks to the premature inclusion of “doubt,” the very concept of “the senses” represents an even bigger problem. That is, from the perspective of nihilistic solipsism, what we call “the senses” is virtually indiscernible from any number of concepts: consciousness, reality, existence, being, I, these can go on and on. That they are discernible and distinct is not important. The point is that Descartes does not clarify this point, and we are left to make the same assumptions it is making: that it is, that it is an I, and that this I accepts and acquires things from or through the senses.

If we are honestly to proceed from here, it follows that an examination of what is meant by each of these terms is in order. Descartes, however, is assuming we know just what it means, and proceeds through the Meditations without ever acknowledging this misstep.

Despite these difficulties, on to “doubting the senses” we turn. The point is simple enough: it seems as though there are instances in which what we see, for example, does not accurately represent how things “actually are,” as when we look at the sun and deduce it is much smaller than the earth. But Descartes wonders how it is it can doubt what the senses are telling it with respect to its body and its surroundings. How can it be doubted, for instance, that it has a body?

The answer to that question is that it can’t. As mentioned, what we have until now understood as the senses means little more at this point than “reality.” Descartes tells us as much: “Whatever I have up till now accepted as most true I have acquired either from the senses or through the senses.” Unless we are supposed to assume there’s a degree of “true” that is higher than “most” true (because clearly there must be something less true than most true), it would seem Descartes’ conception of reality is such that whatever representations are given to it by the senses, it relates these representations to the concept of truth. Now, understand, that would be fine; but what Descartes turns and does is doubt these representations.

It seems that at this point Descartes is occupying a hierarchy of values at which truth is at the top. It’s a slick move, and a rather far one from nihilistic solipsism. Doubting truth in such a context is just scattering the garbage. It’s bad faith to use Sartre’s term. Descartes isn’t really doubting anything because nothing has been set up for it to doubt; all the concepts in its vicinity are at present related to truth. Doubting in this manner is the act of contradicting yourself: it is literally impossible (as distinct, please, from Descartes’ own “quite impossible”) to hold something as truth something you hold as false. The reason doesn’t involve any fancy logic or semantics, it’s simply because that at this specific location of the deconstruction project, truth, reality and, yes, the senses are the same concept, for that’s where the door was opened: “Whatever I have up till now accepted as most true I have acquired either from the senses or through the senses.” At this point, all information received from the senses (what we tend to call empirical or scientific data) must manifest in direct relation with the concept “truth.” The category for non-truth has not been established (read: and thus cannot be doubted); it follows that Descartes’ attempts to now doubt information that it has already regarded as certain elsewhere is a move that it cannot, and does not, pull off.

Descartes goes on to offer a handful of potential solutions to the problem it sees: that there needs to be reasons to doubt the truth. Notice how this is all setting up very nicely for Descartes: it needs (has reason to believe it needs, or, better, is specifically looking for) reasons (the source of truth) to doubt (impossible) the truth (reasons). Later, notice that Descartes will conclude that God (which is the same as “the source of truth” above) . . . . [this paragraph is incomplete]

It mentions that it could be insane, asleep, or the puppet of some malicious demon. But we have already established that the concept of doubt necessitates the inclusion of the concept of truth: to doubt a thing means to assert the non-truth of that thing, or, at least, to withhold understanding that thing as truth. Descartes’ solutions are, in turn, are mere reasons for doubting its apparent reality; and while this might be self-evident in the context of reading the Meditations, what is important for our concern is that here we are made aware of another of Descartes’ assumptions: that reason leads to truth, or that reasons for doubting are a necessary component of doubting truth. This is problematic because, as mentioned, Descartes is operating within a frame that assumes the nature of truth to be self-evident; it assumes, that is, that we know what it means by “truth” despite the fact it has not presented those details. Through this point, in fact, all we know of Descartes’ conception of truth is that, in the past, what it had considered most true (implying, of course, degrees of truth, which is problematic on its own), it acquired through its senses. The distinction Descartes is missing, the move it’s not explaining, is the move from the totality of reality manifested in the midst of nihilistic solipsism (i.e., where reality and self are understood as the same concept), and the dualistic reality that has long since manifested in its own perception.

When I say Descartes has missed a step, I mean to stress not that it was wrong about anything. I am not arguing for a particular view and against Descartes. On the contrary, the picture drawn in the Meditations is admirably meticulous. The difficulties outlined here are not criticisms of its reason, where “reason” designates the extent to which the information being presented to consciousness makes sense - but are rather symptomatic of information that has not been presented. This is to say, it should be plainly clear that, even at this earliest of stages, Descartes has already established itself as a mind-body substance dualist and rationalist. What is unclear, however, is the means by which it attained this view: it doesn’t explain it to us, and it’s possible it didn’t know either. But in either case what is certain is that the picture - as Descartes presents it - manifested in the Meditations is a mapping of mind-body substance dualism and rationalism. My criticism, in turn, is to point to major phenomenological issues that, in sheer ignorance or otherwise, Descartes neglects. The question might go something like this: why would someone neglect to investigate the nature of truth prior to activating the services of doubt, services that require a nature of truth in order to operate? Answer: Because they’ve already established their nature of truth.

Descartes is hiding from us all along its epistemology: again, mind-body substance dualism and rationalism. Returning to the Meditations, then, any further criticism requires only that mistakes be consistent and predictable. Descartes states clearly, for example, that “doubt is quite impossible” when it comes to specific things, “that I am sitting here, sitting by the fire, wearing a winter robe, holding this piece of paper in my hands, and so on.” But doubt is not impossible, of course. It should be, just like it says, because it hasn’t established a theory of truth, or the meaning of the concept truth. But it’s not, because Descartes is deceitfully (I’m kidding - or am I?) working from a frame that already includes its theory of truth. This is why it can so easily come to doubt that which only moments ago it declared was impossible to doubt.

And there is no coincidence either in the fact that it chooses to go the “unless I was insane” route as means to conger up this impossible doubt. It says, “I would be thought equally mad if I took anything from them as a model for myself.” This is only another way of saying that those people who have a different conception of truth than it does cannot possibly be correct about anything. Again, notice the concepts necessary to complete that sentence: “truth” (obviously) and “correct” both designate that the topic of information being presented already assumes a cohesive definition of truth. Given that the Meditation has barely gotten off its feet at this point, how in the world can Descartes confuse itself with another who had established what a word like “mad” would even mean in this context? A discrepancy in information of this magnitude (i.e., are the phenomenological presentations at “insanity” less “real”?) is only explainable if Descartes is already operating from an undisclosed intellectual location, and one at which the meaning of “truth” has already been established. Even the term “model” implies a sense of hierarchy, of order and rank. Furthermore, the introduction of those concepts presents notions of good and evil, right and wrong, truth!

If we consider the Meditations thus far as the journey of a Self, navigating from nihilistic solipsism toward something, anything, that it can establish with certainty, the Self we’re calling “Descartes,” having already prescribed meaning to delicate and problematic terms, and without giving any indication of why, is literally dozens of concepts ahead of itself here.

But press on we shall! Descartes next introduces the concepts of numbers and of shapes, mathematics, etc., and adds the rather charming “regardless of whether they really exist in nature or not, [these things] contain something certain and indubitable.” Once again Descartes has failed to make any sense at all. Now, of course it makes perfect sense if you’re familiar with rationalism or Plato, even Christianity - but here? Descartes wants to argue that it is of no consequence for a presented concept to really exist or not. Forget what the concept refers to, the fact is that Descartes has positioned itself such that it can utter something such as this and call it philosophy; it has officially presented us with a statement, no more than five pages into this classic work, that conceptually mirrors: there exists things that may or may not exist.

Good read.

As much as he tried, he was still presumptous.

Here he is merely identifying “the foundations” of his opinions, so that he can just work with the foundations instead of going through each of his opinions. The purpose of the meditations is not to critique the senses, but to silence doubt that may arise about them, so that they may be certain, and so that he may “establish anything at all in the sciences that was stable and likely to last.” Descartes works with arguments from conceivability from hereon in, in that he conceives of several scenarios in which the source for opinions, i.e. his senses, could supply him with ideas that do not correspond with external reality. He spends the rest of the meditations attempting to silence these conceived scenarios and in so doing rendering his opinions certain because if it is inconceivable that his opinions be false, then they must be true. He at one point establishes that extension is the sole essence of corporeal things because he cannot conceive of corporeal things without extension. To put it simply, arguments from conception are a big part of descartes.

I really don’t understand your essay, and I’m sure the fault rests with me. But I do want to pick at one of your point that I’m sure is incorrect. Descartes does not create degrees of truth.

The emphasis is not on “most” but on “true”. That is just a manner of speaking. He is not creating degrees for truth. In that paragraph he is speaking about his opinions and the manner in which he acquires them. He does not bring up degrees of truth anywhere else in the meditation, if by “most” he had indeed meant for there to be degrees.

For him, if there is the slightest doubt on a proposition, then that proposition is not certain. Odd, I know. It makes you think what was the purpose of all those scenarios he conceives in the first 2 meditations, if in the end he concludes with this method for truth, i.e. that any proposition clearly and distinctively perceived is true. It’s not like he dismisses those scenarios, or shows them irrelevant. His second reason for doubt in particular is a monster. It being that his reasoning equipment, with which he writes the whole of the meditation, could be faulty. There is no way out of this. If we are to take his implied premise that anything conceived by him is a actual possibility, then his conceived scenario about his reason being faulty pretty much seals the deal for him. There’s no way out of that hole, yet, somehow Descartes manages to convince himself by the sixth meditation that those doubts he raised should be dismissed as laughable.

Nicely done, Daybreak.

Next poster who needs help with his homework on Descartes should just get a link to this OP.

Of course, everybody else in Descartes’ time was a dualist, and the smart ones were rationalists.

I think Erlir is mistaken. Every rationalist, every metaphysician admits that there are at least two degrees of Truth, at least as a starting point. That’s the purpose of metaphysics.

  1. Descartes was a rationalist.
    :. Therefore, Descartes admits that there are at least two degrees of truth.

Can’t go wrong with mp.

But, where else does he bring up degrees of truth, if indeed that’s what he meant when he was being overly dramatic and trying to sell his six-day meditation of discovery to his audience? The meditations is a book for the masses. It’s why he wrote it in French, instead of Latin. It’s why he was overtly dramatic in it, playing an actor, a humble one at that; coming unto discovery upon discovery through the use of this six-day meditation. Emoting over every “discovery.” “It feels as if I have fallen unexpectedly into a deep whirlpool which tumbles me around…” Bravo, Rene. =D> The stuff of the meditations he had already ‘discovered’ in the discourses which he wrote in 1637. He wrote the meditations in '41.

I think for him, truth amounted to certainty, and he had certainty when he had no doubt; when a proposition was indubitable; when he could not conceive of any scenarios to doubt a proposition. This is what I’ve gotten out of D.

I’m curious though, since it’s very likely that I am mistaken here, which are those propositions that Descartes consider the highest truths, and why, and which are the lower truths, and what makes them so lowly?

The highest truth that Descartes assumes, and that he never questions, and upon which his entire thesis rests, is that God exists. Descartes wasn’t trying to provide a proof that God exists so that he would then know that God exists. It was a theological and intellectual exercise. He wanted to re-affirm that he was a good and godly man. He wanted to provide a better proof than the ones the Scholastics before him had provided. But he never questioned the Truth of God. His purpose was to re-affirm that.

He also assumes that God wouldn’t deceive him, which was necessary in his argument, since a deceptive God blows the whole Certainty thing. All other “truths” follow from these.

Another way of putting this is that he knew that certainty exists - but Daybreak has covered that.

The original version of the Meditations was in Latin.

Descartes focuses so much on certainty because, as has been mentioned, he doesn’t think he needs to show that God exists, or that 2+2=4. He takes this for granted. The focus on certainty is because he wants to remove any remaining doubts we might have about these truths.

What is never emphasised enough about the Meditations is the importance of ‘demonstrating’ mind/body duality. This Descartes actually tries to prove. The entire point is to show the error of the senses, pretty much assume the best evidence of our reason, and then use this to show the mind and body are really distinct. Understanding the point of the book requires understanding this. For Descartes, what is really important about the cogito is that it can be used in the ‘proof’.

he certainly did need to prove his belief in god…

the only reason rene wrote the meditations was to appease the church.

rene’s mathematics proved the “infalible” church was wrong.

he saw what they did to galileo for the same “crime”…

-Imp

Yeah, Imp - he needed to prove it to them, but not to himself. It was almost a trial by ordeal. Like reciting the Lord’s Prayer without hesitating.

So, we have Descartes the dualist, Descartes the Prover of God. Descartes the rationalist.

And he is supposedly the founder of modern philosophy?

I never got that.

I think that this is no longer modern philosophy. It’s Scholasticism revisited.

the rationalists aren’t scholastics…

rene started with a mind and found god, the scholastics start with the church’s conclusions…

-Imp

I think he’s the founder in the sense that philosophy since Descartes has been very much preoccupied with the problems he addressed. Obviously any rationalist based their systems on him to a greater or lesser extent, and people like Hume can be easily seen as a reaction to rationalism and the championing of reason.

Its true that Descartes retains a lot more of Scholasticism than he himself seems to have thought he did. But in so many ways his doctrines are completely different. He is maybe well described as one of the first philosophers to share the new scientific outlook.

A lot of what he does and says can be understood in the context of showing the compatibility between the new science and religion (rather much like Kant wanted to demonstrate that there was no problem with belief in God and reason); one of the main points of the Meditations, as Ihave said, is the mind/body dualism. This doctrine has real significance, in that the dualism means that science can’t tell the whole story, we have the soul-side, which we need God and religion to explain. If we view Descartes as attempting to show this, we can think of philosophy after Descartes as either accepting the dualism (rationalism) or rejecting it (empiricism) (by dualism I mean the more general doctrine that there are 2 types of reality, the material and the non-material). Obviously this is over-simplistic, but I think thats how to think of his influence.

Yeah, Imp - I understand that his was a difference in method. But his motive was the same. And you know how we perspectivists feel about motive.

And while those we know as rationalists aren’t scholastics, the scholastics were rationalists, or tantamount to.

I think Hume truly founded what is now modern philsophy. His was a sea-change. In method and motive alike.

But i quibble.

Irving - the rationalists were the champions of reason. Hume is the champion of the senses. He is the epistemologist that destroyed epistemology, thereby removing metaphysics from philosophy, eventually (oh, that it be so!).

I’m not sure what dualism has to do with science. Science has no use for dualism, except to reject half of it. If you think that science doesn’t tell the whole story, and that we need God to tell the rest, then we have made no progress beyond the Medaevals.

But I get your point about either rejecting or accepting dualism. I just have difficulty giving Descartes credit for this. I think the rise of science, that happened about the same time as Descartes’ work, and was then just co-incidental to him, was the reason.

I’m not going to argue with anybody’s admiration for Hume! I think to call him the founder is wrong, because so much of what he says is contained in other philosophers (e.g. his arguments against causation appear in Malebranche, its just that the conclusions are, well, rather different).

Thats the point: dualism means there is an area of reality, the non-physical, that science can say nothing about. We have made progress, in the sense that Descartes et al do very much accept modern science (I don’t see how you can argue with this). Let us not forget that Descartes was a scientist, and a mathematician as well as a philosopher. The difference is that his view of the material world is completely different to the Scholastic one. He views nature as mathematically describable; this insight is what was key to the development of modern science. The idea that laws of nature are mathematical relationships comes from, I think, Gaileo - Descartes accepts this. Contrast with the Aristotelian view of nature, where we talk in terms of teleology. Descartes constantly criticises the Scholastic notions of teleology in nature, ‘substantial forms’ and the like.

For Descartes, nature is to be characterised mathematically (although he never went as far as Newton, he did work with very similar laws of motion). We have progress because God only tells the story about the parts science doesn’t apply to, whereas before God was everywhere. Lets not forget Newton hardly rid the world of God: Newton held that the physical laws came from God (an interesting thing is the difference between Newtonian physics and Cartesian; both held God was important, but the Cartesians thought of God as actually causing things (well, Descartes didn’t say so really, but thats only because he never considered the matter), whereas the Newtonians thought God set the laws then let them work).

I think, obviously, Descartes isn’t somebody who holds a completely scientific worldview. But nobody did at his time, and such changes are slow to come about. I guess the point about Hume is that he was so different to what came before. But Hume wouldn’t have had those thoughts without Descartes, Locke, etc. So much a Hume is a reaction to the failings of others.

mathematically describable…

have you seen 3+3=6?

mathematics is metaphysics…

-Imp

Irving - Well, a lot of Descartes is found in the Scholastics. Being the founder of modern philosophy is an historical position - somewhat accidental, as it has to with influence more than substance. But again, I quibble. It’s not an important point, I think.

But to say that there is an area of reality that science can say nothing about is to assume metaphysics. My view is that there is nothing but the physical - so there is nothing for science to miss. Well, there is the nonphysical - but that’s purely an invention of man. So, in the end, it’s physical.

Philosophers build on the past, yes. Nietzsche built on Hume. I am not claiming that Descartes wasn’t important, he surely was. I think I am saying that what is truly “modern” changes (in every endeavor) and that it has, by now. In philosophy. Due to Hume. Hume took god out of the picture. That was the biggest change - as an historical matter. Sure, the greeks had a very different conception of deity than christians do, but the greeks, as an historical matter, had long been hijacked by the Christians. And so “new” and “modern” are to be seen in this context, of course.

I generally disagree with Imp about mathematics being metaphysics. But it has surely been taken to be metaphysics by many.

Mathematics is metaphysics? I think it depends how you view the status of mathematical statements…

Anyway, I wasn’t making a claim about the ontological status of mathematical statements. All I was saying was that the difference between neo-Aristotelian science, and ‘modern’ (classical) physics is the emphasis on mathematics as a tool for describing phenomena. Example: nobody figured out what acceleration was before Galileo, who gave it a mathematical expression. Physics since then has thought of laws in terms of relationships which we can express mathematically, instead of potentialities and all of the Aristotelian stuff. I was merely making a historical claim.

I suppose for Descartes maths probably is metaphysics.

I don’t think anybody would agree with Descartes on anything now, but views of the world change gradually, and Descartes was an important part of the (slow) move towards science as it is today.

I think we need to be careful in thinking science can explain everything.

Yeah, what of that? That Descartes thinks math is metaphysics? I don’t know for sure. But when I read Descartes, i wasn’t paying that much attention, I think. Does he make any definitive statement about this?

Well, like everything in Descartes, I don’t think its exactly clear…

Certainly he holds some kind of dualism of the world as it appears and the world how it really is. I think we can safely characterise this as the world of the senses vs the world of reason. The world as it appears from our senses is generally an illusion. We don’t know the nature of a piece of wax by how it appears to us; rather, it’s by intellectually grasping it, whatever that means. This is what lies behind Descartes very, very odd picture of the material world: he seems to think you can describe the material world in purely geometrical terms. So, I suppose, we could view Descartes as holding a kind of dualism that makes the ‘real world’ a mathematical one. So, in that sense, geometry is metaphysics. Dunno where arithmetic would fit in though. I guess that would maybe be put with logic, as a set of eternal truths decided upon by an absolute act of will by God. What that makes the ontological status of 2+2=2 I’ve no idea.

So, for me, what you have in Descartes is a split between the material world and the non-material (body/soul). The material world as it appears to us is an illusion, it is properly understood through reason. Science can describe events in this world, but we need God to give the underlying cause behind any interactions between bodies. So God is in the background, but essential. Then we have the non-material, which science can say nothing about, and makes us immortal.

I think the mistakes Descartes makes are pretty obvious to a modern reader. Cartesian science goes naturally with the kind of Occasionalist view found in Malebranche. Hume pretty much destroyed views of this type, I think, by pointing out the obvious: to say ‘God did it’ doesn’t explain anything. I think the problems with Cartesian philosophy are best demonstrated by what its followers ended up believing in; Malebranche managed to make the whole thing fairly consistent, but showed that in order to do so you have to make it fantastical. And the whole focus on reason is just misguided.

That is my general impression as well, irv. Thanks for the response. I think, overall, Descartes wants to establish mathematices as some form of, or window to a metaphysical truth, but doesn’t quite do so.

Too tired to think more about it now. May re-read some.

Thanks again.

Faust, thanks for the “nicely done.”

Outside of this, I’m not convinced anyone has understood this essay.

The thread exploded from 1 response to 18 in a matter of days, but it seems that what has developed essentially concerns what folks already thought about Descartes and not the essay in question. Of course, I couldn’t give a fuck either way, but that’s my impression having read each subsequent post in the thread.

Cheers.