On Scientific Law

Question: “What is the ontological status of scientific law?”

I’m going to provide an account of what I take scientific laws to be. I dimly remember starting a thread asking what scientific laws were a few months ago. I never got around to contributing to my own thread, so here’s a (delayed!) contribution.

First, we need some metaphysical commitments:
1)There exists a world in which there exists objects of some sort. We don’t need any assumptions about what these objects, or the world, are like.
2)We need the distinction between an object as it appears (appearance) and an object as it really is (reality). By this I mean no more than the view that just because I experience a tree as being an object of a certain sort that doesn’t mean that another being with a different cognitive make-up wouldn’t experience the tree as being an object of another sort. Therefore, whether the tree is like my experience of it is necessarily an open question, and so we need the concept of ‘tree as it really is’.
3)Human actions have an obvious effect in the world of appearance. We need to assume that there is a correlative effect of human action in the world of reality. I believe this assumption is prima facie warranted: if what ‘appears to be’ changes, and we have no knowledge of what is, the view that ‘what is’ changes as well seems most reasonable. We can express this (badly) by saying that the worlds of appearance and reality causally interact.

Lets think about the scientific process of measurement. When I determine that what appears to be a cat is 0.3m in length, what does this mean? It is at once subjective and objective. Subjective: the concept of a metre is just an arbitrary standard to which we are comparing our cat. If we suppose that to have a length of 0.3m is an attribute that the cat possesses we suppose that any object possesses an infinite number of attributes corresponding to whatever arbitrary standard of measurement we wish to apply to that object. Objective: at the same time, once we have our arbitrary unit of measurement a certain object at a certain time will have a certain measurement on our arbitrary scale no matter how you or I feel about it. The cat makes it the case that it is 0.3m in length without being 0.3m in length being a property of the cat.

We can now formulate a general story of what scientific measurement is all about. Its purpose is to probe into the world as it appears to us, compare it to a set of arbitrary standards, so producing a description of what appears in terms of these standards. What we get is a numerical description of the world as it appears to us. Note that, of course, we also apply this description to the ‘world as it is’ (reality), but whereas when we describe appearance in this way all we’re doing is trying to organise what we see into something coherent, when we apply this description to reality we are making claims that in all possibility may be completely wrong. Anyway, this description is equivalent to a description in a natural language, say english. To say that a cat is 0.3m long is, fundamentally, no different to say that it is ‘short’: one is a mathematical description of the world, the other uses words, but both are just descriptions.

So, we have a thesis:
“The experimental method in science (i.e. measuring things) produces the building blocks (i.e. the measurements) of a mathematical description of the world (as a description of appearance it describes what we actually see, as a description of reality it describes what we (rather groundlessly) infer to be there from what we see).”
So measurements are building blocks of a mathematical description of reality.

So we have two alternative types of description of the world. Neither description is the world, a description of the world can never be the world itself, no matter how precise. There is a tendency to think that mathematical statements must, somehow, be more characteristic of the world ‘as it is’ than descriptions using words alone. This tendency is utterly without ground. To think otherwise is just to think that our most precise interpretation of the world is the world itself.

Before answering my initial question, I’m going to offer a general picture of reality. Here’s a pointless statement: reality is what there is. Here’s a sometimes overlooked statement: we are a part of what there is, hence of reality. Where I want to diverge from someone like Kant is that I want to put real emphasis on something that we might forget. We cannot ever get into the way of thinking that holds that the worlds of appearance and reality are separate. As I said, we are a part of what there is. When I form a description of reality I don’t just sit there happy with my description. I go out and perform actions. Now, as before, we must assume that our actions have some correlate in reality for the same reason we have assumed that what we see as a cat must have some correlate in reality. As such, reality is in part shaped by the descriptions that we have formed of it based upon our experiences. The crucial point, that Kant never seems to touch upon, is that ‘reality’, if it is just what underlies what appears to us, should not just be assumed to be static: what appears to us isn’t static. Rather, there is a process of constant 2-way interaction between what we have called the worlds of appearance and reality. Reality affects what we see as appearance, this leads us to form a description of reality, then this description affects reality. As such, what we really have is something approaching a monism rather than the apparent dualism. Reality and our reconstruction of it are constantly shaping each other.

We need to note that there can be no coherent distinction between ‘internal’ and ‘external’ reality: we are no more in touch with us as we are in reality than we are with the cat in reality. We are always an appearance to ourselves. I’m not going to develop this, I just want to make it clear that I’m not going to privilege the human case.

Finally, now, to answer my initial question. Take an example: F=dp/dt. Remember that we have the beginnings of a mathematical description of reality in our measurements. We could say that measurements are like the nouns of our language: they are used to identify objects, mathematically speaking. But a language needs more than nouns. We use equations like our example to provide generalisations, i.e. statements that aren’t just about one object but about many. We could think of them as sentences. Obviously, we can have laws of greater or less generality (as, in our example, F=ma is a statement of less generality, Einstein’s equation of motion is a statement of greater generality).

So: a law is really just a component of our mathematical description of reality, just as a measurement is. As such, it is no more ‘reality itself’ than the measurement is. The language is always a description of reality, never reality itself, hence the law is never reality itself. My conclusion is that a scientific law has no more reality than a word: certainly, a particularly powerful word, with a great deal of descriptive power. But still no more ‘real’.

Of course, there are differences between a measurement and a law. But all I am claiming is that both have the same ontological status. We form laws by comparing measurements in different experiments and coming up with equations.

I’m aware that none of this is really an argument, but I do feel that the sheer simplicity of my solution, when compared to the problem that we have accounting for the existence (in whatever sense) of scientific law in a more usual way, is its chief merit.

If anybody is at all interested feel free to press me upon any of this. There’s a lot of stuff that I’ve left out, especially about scientific method.

There’s more to the scientific approach than just mathematization of experience - but, apart from that, I definitely like where you’ve gone with all this. I want to ask a Hegelian question of you at this point: are there other, even more developed or (in a less-than-ideal manner of speaking) “higher” forms of knowing beyond the scientific? Does human epistemology stop at the level of measurements and laws, or is there someplace else for it to go from there?

Of course there is more to science than this. Having a degree in maths I tend to focus on it, but there is a more substantive point to the focus on mathematical science. We tend to think that putting something into a mathematical language is getting closer to the ‘real’ structure of things. I want to draw attention to how everything scientific is always a description, even the most precise science. I think its more obvious that something like the theory of evolution is only a description of what happens (well, obvious to the philosophically minded…)

Excellent question, please, keep them coming. This is a ‘view in progress’ and, as I indicated, really only a part of a general view of reality. For instance, I’m interested in how we can apply similar ideas to dealing with perception itself.

Right. Firstly, I don’t want to ignore that mathematical description of reality is only a ‘higher’ description when we’re looking for the sort of precision that it can provide. Thats the thing with descriptions; how ‘good’ or ‘high’ they are really depends upon what our purposes in describing something are. But that doesn’t answer your question: is there maybe a better way of describing what we currently describe with the language of maths? Another, related, question that I didn’t look at is whether our description could ever correspond to reality - my view is that our description will always be based upon our cognitive make-up, while another race of beings may well form a different description based upon their own cognitive make-up. But, prima facie, none of this rules out that our description could just happen to be completely accurate. All I can say to this is that we could never know.

Anyway, to return to whether there may be a ‘higher’ form of description than the mathematical. My simple answer is that I don’t know. My view is that mathematical description provides the ‘best’ way to describe reality for scientific purposes based upon our current cognitive make-up. If our cognitive make0up changes, or evolves, then I see no reason why we could not form a better way of describing reality for our purposes.

I’d be interested, especially, in hearing any criticisms of my view.

c’mon people I’d like some responses please.

I know I say this all the time, but I have an article that’s pretty much about this subject. I could email it to you if you want.

“The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is into what will be. They are descdiptions of patterns that exist, all at once, in the whole tapestry. The four-dimentional space-time manifold displays all eternity at once.” - ‘Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman’

“Everything we know is only some kind of approximation, because we know
that we do not know all the laws yet. Therefore, things must be learned
only to be unlearned again or, more likely, to be corrected.”
- Richard Feynman

Of course.
A full and complete definition of the universe, at any moment, consists of the sum total of all Conscious Perspectives (us), at the moment/universe that is being defined/described/manifested. The complete tree can only be known by all Perspectives of said tree, at the moment of definition. Another moment is another tree to define.

“Mathematics is just another language.”

Let me know if I’m missing something, but it seems like a pretty good counter-argument to the entire “science is just as dogmatic and faith based as religion,” argument.

the future must behave as the past because of the impermeable laws of science?

no dogmatism there…

-Imp

If believing that in the future, things will behave as they have in the past, makes me a dogmatist, then I wear the title with honor.

Go for it. robin_mckenna@hotmail.com. I should be able to read it this weekend.

Yes and no. Imp makes the exact right point. If we do a set of experiments, and form a mathematical generalisation from that, then we tend to think that this generalisation would hold over any other set of experiments of the same type no matter when we perform these experiments. Say I measure the rate at which a ball accelerates towards the Earth a few times, and I form an equation describing this. I would assume that if I dropped the ball a few more times I’d get the same equation. This involves a (dogmatic) assumption.

This, along with a host of other assumptions, are implicit within good scientific method. The thing is that we can’t do science without assuming that the future will, in certain respects, follow the past.

Connected with this are issues about domains of validity for our laws. We take it that Newton’s Equation of motion describes accurately experiments involving objects that are moving at a speed considerably less than that of light and aren’t within the domain of QM. But, of course, properly speaking a law is only ever valid with respect to the experimental situations in which it has been tested (its just a description, right?)

But the point we need to push when comparing science and religion is that some descriptions are better for certain purposes than others. A poet describes nature beautifully, and communicates insights of a certain sort into the nature of the world. Science describes nature differently, and doesn’t necessarily communicate the same insights as a poet. This makes the ‘best’ description a matter of taste/situation, so in that respect I’m agnostic in the whole ‘science v religion’ thing.

This is why I love physicists. Those guys, by and large, totally ‘get it’. It is amazing how different many physicists are to the public perception of ‘the scientist’.

By the way, much of my view is inspired/developed by the work of David Bohm, a top physicist with a nice sideline in this kind of thing. He’s well worth a read.

I suppose you aren’t going to get many people disagreeing that mathematics is, ultimately, just a language. The real temptation is to view that language as, somehow, more liable to reflect the universe ‘as it really is’. The insights of mathematics seem so precise and clear that we tend to think that this just must be how reality really is. This is the temptation I’m really urging against. I think if we can show the common root of both mathematical and natural language, and their shared purposes, we can show that mathematics is in no sense privileged.

Basically, showing that maths is just another language isn’t enough. We need to show that it is in no way a special language, other than fulfilling certain of our purposes better than other languages.

Living in worlds as different as Spam and foi gras, of course the mundane mind sees no more than his own reflection.

Indeed.

So true, and all Perspectives truly equal as far as necessity and validity in comprising the Whole. But, in all fairness, all tend to get ‘attached’ to our own particular ‘languages’, views, and the ego makes us ‘take sides’! The greater/wider the Perspective, the less it can stand for and defend any one particular Perspective; ultimately,
“In Silence, Truth!” -Book of Fudd (1:1)

Quantum is informing mathematics, logic, physics, astronomy, geology, biology and every other branch of knowledge as we speak.
A whole new Golden Age of Consciousness such as the world has never seen, right around the corner!

I think the reason i find math so confusing is that there is no room for ambiguity - there aren’t any good answers to math problems, only correct answers - and that’s not realistic - in real life, problems have good solutions and bad ones but rarely correct or incorrect ones - mathematics is just humans kidding themselves about the possibility of precision using an elaborate system of tautologies - there’s a reason most fractions don’t terminate when converted to decimals, and that’s because reality doesn’t divide itself into numbered units, only humans do that.

QFT!

Well written. You had me involved until this point;

Presumably you have pondered this difference, and decided to avoid resolving it here and now with good reason.
The difference between the first and the second statement is, to some people, an interesting one. It triggers the contemplation of the attributes of measurement you introduced.
Why are these units, numbers, so fascinating to scientists? All they do is reduce. Don’t we want more?
The second statement can clearly mean more things than the first one. ‘The short cat’ can be a comparison to a tiger or a kitten, or even a train. “The cat, even though it was the longest cat ever, was disappointingly short when we saw him stretched out next to the train.”
We cannot formulate the same nonsense with a 0.3m long cat. Short compares to objects, 0.3m compares to nothing. Once a human has learned what this random ‘0.3m’ cypher means, namely that it is about as long as a short cat, it will always mean the same to him. Not so with the glyph ‘short’. Numbers, by definition, make sense. That is all they do, at least, all they are good for. I’d be hard pressed to laugh at a series of numbers.
Wait, not true. Shit. I can laugh at the numbers on my bank account. I can laugh at a phone-number. Oh well…

Is there meaning without comparison? Is there sense without meaning? In other words, does 0.3m really compare to nothing?

I think it compares to other numbers, other numbers which compare to other non-numerical things. Our concept “2”, no matter how abstract we take it, has meaning (the ability to “make sense” of that to which it is applied) only because, at an empirical level, we can apply it to, say, an apple sitting next to another apple (“there are 2 apples”). We can reduce things to numbers, but we can also, in turn, reduce numbers to things. In either case, the meaning of the number, and the sense it carries when applied, remains the same: “Twoness”, so to speak.

Our concept “2” has meaning only because we have a use for it. Not so because it came eat our children and we had to give a name to it. A tiger attacking us has meaning to us, whether or not we define it, regardless how we conceptualize it. The concept “2” comes to us only when we want to make use of what is in front of us, when we want to control it.

Yes, but we cannot reduce things to things.
Numbers have to be reduced to things, things are things.
‘Two-ness’ exists beyond question, ‘cat-ness’ does not.

But then from where do the names “us” and/or “we” get their meaning?

Interesting, i disagree. Things are always reducible (or expandable, as the case may be) to other things. Numbers are things, because symbols are things. Twoness is a thing. I don’t see how it could possibly exist beyond question except in reference to itself, and a thing is only ever a thing in reference to itself, and only ever itself in reference to other things, otherwise it’s indistinguishable from everything and nothing, which are themselves ultimately ontologically indistinguishable. The concept of thingness and number and self are all the same basic concept. Math has all the same ontological consequences that any other language or system of meaning has.

Hi Jakob thanks for your response.

When I say there is “fundamentally no difference” I of course don’t really mean what you might think I mean by that Thanks for pointing that out. The crucial respect in which they are similar is just that both are descriptions. What you’re getting into is the difference between the 2 types of descriptions in terms of what they are like as descriptions. My point was just that both are of the same ontological type: descriptions of reality, not reality itself, nor necessarily any reflection of reality itself.

Of course the differences are also interesting, but not directly related to the argument I’ve used here.

I had thought when I was writing that ‘short’ was a bad example because it means different things depending upon the context in which it is used. Whereas, of course, 0.3m just means what it means.

Sure, thats basically my point. The really, really, really important thing is to recognise something here though. I’m somebody who is very pro-science and pro-maths. While “reality doesn’t divide itself into numbered units” we’ve found that dividing reality into these numbered units helps us to produce very intricate and detailed descriptions of reality. Put it this way: reality is just the totality of what is. But we cannot possibly think about something as big as reality without breaking it into little bits. Words break reality into bits, so do numbers. We’ve found that using numbers and equations we can produce very powerful and very general descriptions of reality. Science represents the pinnacle of mans attempt to break reality into easily digestible chunks. So what we get isn’t reality, it’s a fractured picture of reality. But we can’t understand reality any other way.