On the Divine Identity of Jesus

I think, to be short, that Jesus, or rather the Christ, is Dionysos.
The symptoms fit too well - the way the Christian baptism with fire results in a savage joy that leaves a trail of tears like ac mets gaseous clouds.

Im not speaking of my own experience as much as of what I recognize in all Christian conversions that Ive witnessed.
Further, the Christ gives no law. Only love is the law, and the assumption that wisdom is given by that love.

Love = the moment
this is what all great gods make accessible for us.
But Jesus is a great god indeed. He is a shameless Dionysos, that is what is hateful about the whole affair and hateful it is - but whats a little hatefulness compared to the cosmic powers of Dionysos? Well, much - it is why I am not a Christian. The aesthetics of the religion are too barbaric. There is not enough Apollo in it.

Apollo endures no frivolity, no fake flesh or blood, no incense to dull the senses, no small rooms and humble garments to emphasize ones humility, no deprivation nor any carnal privilege, only the presence of hardness and sun and truth, and to break the spell of heaviness, there is the lightness afforded by pure genius. If you see a cat look for this in the eyes.

Jesus must yet become cat-like.
Wash his own wounds


Jesus is a fiction. Never existed. He was invented by Romans, and possibly Jews, to castrate the minds of the population.

Jesus is not love, in the traditional sense. He advocates for celibacy. If you follow Jesus to the letter you will become either a psychopath or a pedophile. Most people do not follow Jesus to the letter, as he opposes all natural instinct and drives. He advocates for pacifism and he was possibly the first real Marxist icon of society.

Still, I have no problem with Christians, as far as they don’t tell me what to do. I think Christianity can be good, such as charities or promoting forgiveness and personal growth. Its the inhuman, unnatural aspects of Christianity that I have a problem with.

There are of course literally hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of narratives out there [in places like this] attempting to capture either the essential or the existential Jesus.

That’s why over and again I suggest that what is most crucial here is not what you believe is true, but what you are able to demonstrate that all reasonable men and women are obligated to believe is true is turn.

Not the least because what is said to be at stake here is the fate of your very soul. And for all of eternity!

So, anyone here able to provide us with any convincing evidence regarding either the essential or the existential Christ?

And, if so, please bring it over to this thread as well: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=186929

I created it precisely in order to connect the dots between the behaviors you choose on this side of the grave and that which you imagine the fate of your soul to be on the other side. The nuts and the bolts of God and religion.

This doesn’t really address the OP. Strictly speaking your identity is a fiction too. You’re just some molecules, and now a slightly different bunch, and now different… even still.

I spoke of the Divine Identity, not the Physical Identity. Nor am I claiming Dionysos walked the earth as a man.

I have to disagree that Jesus is a Marxist avant la lettre. Marx was a materialist, saw the struggle in terms of capital. Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is his.

His lack of interest in fixed physical values fits Dionysos, the transcendent aspect of humanity, the pure will.

I guess I’ve tended to think of D as going through a more shamanic death and rebirth - the torn to pieces is often the initiating dream for shamans - whereas J feels more stoic, ascetic. Then D as more of an ecstatic figure, with Jesus, generally being more refined, heading more in the Apollonian direction. Though there are so many takes on Dionysis I don’t want to say this is right, but I’ve found it more useful.

Whatever he was, I think Jesus was a gay. Definitely had no interest in women. Told his disciples not to lust. Liked washing feet of men.

He was a fictional character invented to make people gay. Then they made up a new character called Saul, to shame the gay. This caused some kind of mental psychosis…being taught to be gay but then being told that being gay is an abomination. Causing some kind of schizoid or schism in the global population’s minds. Nowadays, we see this predicted in modern Christians behavoir: Waging wars in name of oil or religion, but preaching that violence is bad, despite being obsessed with tanks, fighter jets and football. Closet homosexual politicians banning gay marriage. Believing God is love, yet at the same time believing he will send you to hell for not worshipping him. Christianity created a kind of global insanity that mere hedonistic nihilism could not even compare. With hedonism, you get A=A, whatever feels good is good. With Christianity, you get some kind of paradoxial equation in the mind. Spreading chaos and the end result is Marxist modernism and social chaos, virtue signaling and the whole modern cesspool of feminism’s hydras were all stuck having to wade through.

“Jesus must yet become cat-like.
Wash his own wounds

This is a nice image but I think Dionysos subsumes Christ rather than Christ becoming more like Dionysos. The opposition will always be there.

books.google.com/books?id=ykxGC … 49&f=false Pg. 149 The section on hospitality and Nietzsche’s assertion that "the most serious Christians have always been well disposed toward me.”

Thats more substantive identification of the relation anyway.
Let my image be a mere image. Since involves a cat, it doesn’t need to be more.

Im still averse to the fractured taste of Christianity but Ive grown respectful of it in recent years as it mobilized against postmodernism and relativism. The very decay Nietzsche first identified as a form of Christianity decayed to such a point that in 2016 it became the nemesis even to that origin, testing and refreshing the will to power of the origin. And in this re-awakening of fundamental Christianity as a response to deconstructionism can be seen as a spiralling double dragon, a helix of self-attainment, which is closer to an image of Dionysos than any single man or animal could be.

Good reference. Ill look into this some more.
Ive come to similar thoughts about what it is that Nietzsche did inherit and cultivate out of Christianity. His being the AntiChrist eminently places him at the pinnacle of Christian development. And it is true that Nietzsche, not Jesus, did ultimately take upon him the suffering of the world.
Jesus asked that the cup pass him by, Nietzsche asked that it return to him eternally.

What I see of Dionysos in Christ is the madness, willing the madness for the sake of shattering tables of law. I recognize the Dionysian in the bloodthirsty of the baptism. I could see how the perpetuated madness and consumption of flesh and blood-facsimile could have perpetuated the cult of Dionysos underground, inside the peoples daemonism, underneath their conscious logoi.

Consider the habit of drug induced musicians of wearing the cross on their chest, be they hippies or goths or or rappers or pop stars, the cross appears to extend some licence to experience a violent self-love.
There is nothing more decadent and unappealing than the conversion of Constantine and all the cultural forms that led up to it and glorified it later on, churches are invariably foul places, though greatly differing in degree. Yes if at one point in time man would decide to torch all his cathedrals, what would be left standing, charred, roofless, plant-friendly carcasses hospitable to sun, wind and rain, then we could see the effort of Christians in a Dionysian light - because the architectural forms of Christian Europe reveal more than piety and prudence, they mostly reveal a prideful will, a proof of strength by excess of strength; a will to overcome the merely human life in service of what are by all measure a bizarre and demonic tributes to god.
I say we shall see the truth when the cat licks the wounds, when the flame licks the wood, when the prayer-benches burn and the gold melts, dripping to the ground.

I don’t agree. First of all he did things that require a good level of testosterone, and moreover most of the sources that speak of him in any interesting ways include Mary Magdalene as his lover. I would rather see him as a kind of sneaky pimp, like the Baghwan.


Maybe Jesus is merely the memory of Dionysos.

There are few people wo agree with me on this, I still take Nietzsche as he revealed himself in the Birth of Tragedy, and that means I see Apollo as the cornerstone of the Dionysian.

Nietzsche makes the distinction between the Asiatic Dionysos in whom sex and death became one and the beautiful, musical and human Greek Dionysos who is the bringer of sublime life. In between stands the mastery of narrative, the Greek way of dealing with the fact of the deep suffering of their sensitive natures, which was the creation of he Olympians above them. Suddenly the world was no longer condemned because of their suffering; now the gods justified all of it and thus relieved the existential stress of these early westerners and allowed them to remodel their own world in the humble image given to them by the idea of the gods looking down on them indifferently, inside of the very heart of nature, which is withdrawn from society but can be touched in some cases by a hero. Human nature is transformed through the greeks from a machine to a place. In this arena the new Dionysos was enabled. He, the subtle one provoking the desire to transmute the hearts heaviness into poetic tragedy, is the center of history because he stands on his own proper footing, the temple of Apollo at Delphi in the Februari rain, the heart warming knowledge of power, which was first given to the Greeks. Given, or taken - Prometheus was punished in any case. I suggested to a friend the theological notion that Apollo was sent down to regulate these newborn godlings as Prometheus was being chained to the Rock to have his liver (tied to rage, thumos, Jupiter) picked out until the centaur Chiron, the eternally wounded teacher of human heroes, decided to die for him. All this is the story of Zeus reluctantly allowing humans to be taught by all kinds of crazy gods and titans and other immortal folk. Jesus is just one of these folks. Dionysos is only ever present where the task is complete - like a drink after a days work. He is the meaning of life, whats life is for, what it moves towards. He can’t be sought or found in oneself, only in the sacrifice of the present for the future; he is the conception of the future inside the present. The heart of life untouched by death. Apollo is rather the solemn fact of mortality, the reason for stone-masonry.

In the first place, Christianity rejected pagan deities as idols. However, Christ came to be viewed as the fulfillment of the positive aspects of pagan mythology.

The belief in a savior deity whose death and rebirth brought immortality to man, the themes of illumination and regeneration, ritual initiation into a community of worshippers, sacred banquets etc were all practiced in the early church. Religious practices were considered as shadows of reality–the logos which was Christ. For example, Colossians 2: 16 - 17 says " Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Likewise, the classical gods were assimilated as figures of Christ. Apollo as the Sun god was seen as the pagan precursor to Christ the Light of the World. Prometheus the suffering liberator of mankind was subsumed by the figure of Christ the suffering savior who set the captives free. Dionysus the deity of death and rebirth was considered a prefigure of Christ who realized in history the positive aspects of what Dionysus represented in mythology.

Yes, this fits to how proper worshippers of Christ would truthfully see Dionysos, even when this perspective is beheld in the perspective of a Dionysian.

It would be very meaningless if a Christian figured that his living Lord and Saviour was merely an aspect of some particular city states mystery god.
From my own perspective this still gives Dionysos as the historical father of Christ, where Zeus is the literal father, Zeus the bearded patriarch of the heavens.

I no longer question Christ’s prerogative in this world. He is a son of Zeus, a bastard from a Jewess… very explosive kid.
I see myth as a form of reasoning. It doesn’t point to truths or facts but it allows for profound insights to occur within the interplay of the mythical figures in their synthetic narratives. It is so literally the chemistry of the mind that it might be seen as the most accurate identifier for the actual chemistry of the brain.

Someone said it very nicely recently; we must have evolved from reptiles, because if we had evolved from rodents wed always be having rodents at the core of our myths and not snakes and dragons.

The future cat or kitty-christ however may be great enough a myth to render the snake a happy servant.
It reminds me of Nietzsches distaste for the tiger, he found it unpleasantly tense.

Of course there must be a myth about the virgin birth of a kitten. A great cosmic Lion had descended on the harmless mother. In a way Katzenberg beat me to that. Still that proves its not unviable.

I bet the Christ could use a new vessel even just to take stock of two thousand years of work. An upgrade, fit to todays markets of passion, if you’ll excuse the vulgarity, Felix. Still carrying the seed of Revelation, no longer demanding destitute servility.

Sure. Gotcha bro. No problem.

Of course - Orthodox Christianity is as hard headed as orthodox Islam. This is why it is worth anything at all.
It is generally advised for an orthodox religious person to assume I have nothing to offer and avoid engaging me. Orthodoxy assumes everything is already given; I am the antithesis of that assumption.

To a rat, the snake might seem rather deity-like and certainly a better metaphor for the unknown powers that be. But we evolved from both proto-rodents and proto-reptiles.

Yes well I’m curious about your sources and methodology. Orthodox Christians have their sacred sources, which are primarily their biblical canon, their creeds and, for some, the ecclesiastical hierarchy. They think they own Jesus’s identity. But I suppose as a meme he belongs to the world. So everybody’s free to take their shot. Orthodoxy relegated the erotic and aggressive aspects of the Dionysian spirit to Satan. There’s a kind of internal battle between monotheism and dualism inherent in Christianity I think.

My methodology is pretty direct, I just call on Jesus, I visit the holiest Christian places such as the church of the sepulchre in Jerusalem and many churches in Italy and France, I study the texts both canonical and disputed such as the dead Sea scrolls, and anything I can do to bring the spirit of the Christ in my presence. I’ve been doing such for two decades. I’ve had a lot of very vivid and personal experiences with Jesus as well as Mary as well as the Baptist. It is perfectly real to me, and pastors have recognized this in my demeanor, words and eyes over the years. I don’t believe the intellect has much of a place here, only the open heart.

But still I don’t claim Christianity. I claim the Aesir and the Olympians as my personal gods. But I consider the Christ and his flock my allies. Christians tend to have more of a backbone these days than secularists.

A question occurs here: do rodents have a “reptile brain”?