One of the primary stories of philosophy

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

Having read a fair amount of philosophy over
the years, one of the primary points within philosophy
exemplified by Plato, is the division of existence…
there are two parts to existence, one is the temporary, experiences,
changing, brief aspect of existence… the part
of the universe that changes… and the other aspect
is the permanent, changeless, aspect of existence…
in India, the permanent aspect is called Atmen… which in
India means the ‘‘real self’’ of the individual, the ‘‘innermost
essence’’ of one’s self… which never changes…
thus mirroring existence itself… the two parts of
existence, the ever changing and the never changing,
lies at the heart of philosophy, since Plato anyway…

and in this debate, where do I stand?

I have spent decades trying to find the permanent,
the forever, god if you will and yet, I have not
found anything that can be thought of as permanent,
forever, god…there is no permanent beyond the
changes… reality lies within the changes, the impermeant,
In other words, there is but one reality… the one we see
and work in and play in and die in and change in…
there is nothing beyond that… and why do most
people have a real problem with that? because it
seems to remove some sort of reason or cause for
existence… we strive for the permanent, but
there is no permanent to strive for… Jesus said
that his Kingdom was of heaven, not of earth…
but that is a dualism that isn’t warranted by the
facts…Plato talks about the ‘‘permanent/eternal forms’’
like the circle… so, where are the permanent/eternal
forms residing? for there to be permanent/eternal forms,
they have to exists somewhere, so, where?

Occam’s razor suggests that the simplest explanation
is more likely to be true…so, what is a simpler explanation,
a dual universe with one side being permanent, eternal,
and the other side, a single universe that is what we see, changing
evolving every day…an belief in heaven requires one to also
believe in god, angels, demons, Satan, sin, eternal damnation…
otherwise, what one see’s, is what we see, that is reality…
nothing more, nothing less… and what causes changes in
said reality? for the most part, entropy causes the changes
we see, chance really… for we have no way of predicting
how entropy will work… I am growing old… that is entropy…
and entropy is the law of the universe… and entropy is
chaotic, random, full of chance… so, what is easier
to believe in… a dual universe that has the permanent,
forever or the random, chance universe that we can touch
and see…

which leads me to my next point, where
is this permanent, forever universe with eternal values??
I can’t see it, touch it, hear it, smell it or taste it… it can’t
be noticed by our senses and yet, it is supposed to exists..
ok, where? I can see, hear, touch, taste, smell the
universe that exists all around me… a universe that is
random and chaotic… I see that every single day…
a universe that changes every single day…
just as I can see the entropy working on my body
every single day… every day, I am a step slower
my body is falling apart and soon, at some point,
entropy will win and I will die… I don’t need some
permanent forever place, that I can’t discover,
to know entropy…

So, Kropotkin, let us, for the moment, grant
you are right, now what?

and that is the next post…

Kropotkin

2

If the reality we see and touch, is the only reality we have,
what exactly does that mean for us?

That the search for the permanent, unchanging eternal
reality is a manufactured search, a made-up search which
has no basis in reality… we can’t find the eternal,
permanent reality like god or Atman because no such
thing exists… reality is just what we can see and touch,
nothing more… that change is the reality of the universe…
not permanence…

In a universe that is about change, then it makes sense
that we have ‘‘suffering’’… for ‘‘suffering’’ is just changes
that pain us in some fashion… I ‘‘suffer’’ when I fell
down and hurt my arm, but that is change that I can
expect… I have hurt myself plenty of times…fallen down,
trip on rocks, visited clown town… but that ‘‘suffering’’
is the ‘‘suffering’’ possible for everyone… it isn’t something
special or extraordinary… it is an everyday thing…
all aspects of ‘‘suffering’’ is available for every single
person if they live long enough… at some point,
my mother will pass away… she is 90… there is nothing
here that suggests something out of the ordinary…
and I will ‘‘suffer’’ but it is as I have suggested earlier,
part of the ‘‘price of admission’’ in existing…in being
human, I will know pain, suffering, illness, and eventually,
death… the point isn’t to escape suffering, as many
eastern religions suggest.. including Buddhism…
the point is to know/understand that part of the gig
of being human is to know pain, illness, disease,
loss, suffering… the point is not to escape suffering,
but to learn to accept it as a natural part of entropy…
change brings about new challenges including suffering…
that is life… and most change is driven by entropy…
which is random, chaotic, chance driven…

the quest is not to overcome entropy, but to accept it
and lessen its impact on us… for it is chance
that decides if I were to get cancer, or die of a heart
attack or grow old…you know, older…
I can impact that, modify it a bit, but I can’t
escape it or act in some fashion that will
prevent me from growing old or become sick
or dying… it is what it is…

and seeking out some pretend reality that
is outside of my senses or is eternal, I
am just denying the reality of the situation…
I am not focused on my current situation/reality…
if I am dreaming about heaven or some permanent
reality, then I am not present in my life right now, right here…
and therein lies the failure of the dream of an eternal soul
or spending eternity in heaven, I am not present in my life…
the reality of existence lies in its changes, in entropy,
in randomness and chance…

You say, but Kropotkin, you are wrong…
Ok, where then is this eternal reality, you speak of?
if there are eternal forms as Plato claims, where are they?
they have to be somewhere, within the universe, someplace,
ok, where?

Kropotkin

3

…in the part of every moment that never changes, which is the part that actually demonstrates the eternal … all the rest demonstrating it by comparison/contrast… (and that there is freedom to do so is also a demonstration of the eternal)…

4

Ichthus77 (formerly She™
…in the part of every moment that never changes, which is the part that actually demonstrates the eternal … all the rest demonstrating it by comparison/contrast… (and that there is freedom to do so is also a demonstration of the eternal)…

K: and this makes no sense…

‘‘in the part of every moment that never changes’’
what the hell does that even mean?

There is no moment that never changes… every single
moment is a moment of change…One might say, an empty room
never changes but that isn’t true… every object in the universe
and a room is a object which because of entropy must change…
we just can’t see the changes because it is so small and
imperceptible…I have seen, and I am sure you have seen pictures
of houses that have been abandoned… they are in various
stages of entropy… which is to say falling apart… now, that
may take years, but every empty house will eventually
collapse, fall down… there is no moment that is
unchanging… for if it is unchanging, then that moment
lies outside of time and space… which is outside of
entropy… and what object can exist outside of time/space?

which is a very long way of saying there is no unchanging
reality… or ‘‘ultimate reality’’ for us to find… the only reality
we can see or find is the daily changes that happen in our
lives…where every single object is subject to the force
of entropy…and if everything is subject to entropy,
then there is no ‘‘ultimate reality’’ to find…

it has been said in Eastern religion/philosophy
that by seeking the atman within us, will lead us to
some discovery of the ‘‘ultimate reality’’ that is
within us, all of us… and yet, I have found
that within us, isn’t the ‘‘ultimate reality’’
but more of an onion… as we peal further
and further down toward the center, we find
that there is nothing there… there is no
‘‘ultimate reality’’ to be found in pealing an onion…
it is just an empty center… as we are…
because in human experience, there is no
human existence outside of time/space… and thus
we too are subject, in all ways, to entropy…

In fact, if I were to argue for a reality that
applies to everything, I would say it is probably
entropy…for if is matter and everything is matter,
it is subject to entropy…there is no matter that lies
outside of time/space and thus all matter
is subject to entropy… but Kropotkin, what about
energy? is energy subject to entropy? is there a
perpetual motion machine? nope, because it
violates the first and/or second law of thermodynamics…
this suggests that there is entropy even within
energy…

the question then arises, does time/space itself
suffer from entropy? Given what we know about
matter/energy, I would have to say yes… but the
fact is, I have no idea… and even guessing, would
just be a guess…

is there an ‘‘ultimate reality’’’ not that I can tell…

Kropotkin

5

There is something in common between moments or you wouldn’t be calling all of them moments. The thing that is common between all moments is the thing that never changes between all moments.

I will have to look at the rest of your post later this evening.

6

Please cite!
Where in Plato?

7

Fundamental question :thinking:: Do you want to know, or are you just interested in the opinions of forum participants? If you seek knowledge, a teacher’s level of understanding is required. Otherwise, learning loses its meaning.

Let’s test it: Everything that exists changes, including the insignificant. This is the law of existence. Only non-existence is unchanging. If you understand this simple statement, we can continue. If not, then teaching you would be meaningless. :books:

(The demon is intrigued by human foolishness, as his own foolishness diminishes more and more with the wisdom gained over the years.)

8

Being (Substance) is not non-existence. It is also not non-quality.

Distinct from existence (action) and quality (force)? Yes.

Mutually exclusive? No.

Mutually productive? Yes.

And I don’t mean maybe.

9

If the force of entropy reclaims the house, what force develops it… or the rose? Not all change is reclamation/entropy. Perhaps none of it. Don’t quote me on that.

That which can willfully reclaim/renew … or bring to development/fruition … via willful change … is that which never changes. Anyone who can do that has something that never changes about them.

10

Being (Substance)" is nonsensical bullshit :dog:, invented by scientifically trained idiots :man_facepalming: trying to complicate everything. Being is the right to exist and have presence :balance_scale:, not some complex or convoluted nonsense

11

Entropy is just another piece of scientific crap, invented by scientifically trained idiots to give some semblance of dignity to their natural stupidity.

Simple question — why does everything change? Not a single scientifically trained animal can answer. Another question: why is the universe in motion, and what explains the elliptical orbits? Again, the lying bitch science (on the service of power) will give no meaningful answer. Even the lying religions are closer to the answer, though religions are hatred towards God, and hence, more lies.

12

Why do you paint all religions as hatred toward God? As distinguished this way?

religion (checking ritualistic boxes… all motion, no soul)

irreligion (swinging the opposite direction & wallowing in slop)

gospel (loving every self/personhood despite their/our slop, good or bad…absolute fire)

I’m sorry, what was the question?

13

See last post.

Love makes the world go ‘round, as they say.

14

Religions bow to idols invented by conmen. The Gospel is nothing but prostitution, with no love in it — just a mercenary masturbation of thought. What’s the question? Why lie if you don’t even know how the world works?**

The person raised the issue with this exact question. Consequently, they received a counter-question: ‘Why are you interested?’ And here are two options to consider:**

  1. Are you studying to see what they’ll bleat, baa, and whine about?
  2. Or do you seek real knowledge?

Both goals are worthy.

15

Sirius loves Alpha Centauri. Procyon wants to fuck Betelgeuse. Aktur Antares and Capella generally decided to make sex for three. It is interesting to ask. Do you have any problems with your head? Or, as in Jesus’ case, the dissociative disorder of identity on the basis of rape by one’s own mother. He also called for love between men And you know perfectly well how it ended - they hung him from the pillory.

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17

You think you are offering enlightenment but might only be bringing confusion.

Does a tree in the woods exist if no conscious being can see it?

What if the tree doesn’t move and doesn’t change? Does it no longer exist?

18

Funny. Ran across this discussion from 2005 last night / this morning. @Ecmandu could’ve written my part. @promethean75 … would prolly still say the same things, no? Is Ares @Jakob, @Fixed_Cross, @aries777622? Is Malbus still around (these parts)?

It was posted about a month before I lost my freaking mind… although… perhaps I had anosognosia at that point, and it was a month later that I realized it (and things got much worse before they got better… as they do…).

19

Is it really so hard to grasp what existence is and how it’s determined?

Existence is merely a form—essentially a bluff that fills in for a lack of complete information. Humans understand existence properly through matter, space, and time.

So, coming back to the “tree” in the “forest”… the right questions would be:
– Is it made of matter?
– Where does it exist?
– How long does its being last?

And by the way—who told you that a tree on planet Earth doesn’t move? The planet itself spins, doesn’t it?

And as for the tree growing—well, even a child knows that.

Ah yes… but forget the tree for a moment. Here’s a riddle from childhood:
“What stands on the table but walks?”
Answer: A clock. :alarm_clock::slightly_smiling_face:

20

Ah, I see.
If you’re an ostrich, then the best way to understand the world is to stick your head in the sand out of fear.
But don’t forget — your rear end stays exposed.
The Demon will pluck the feathers from it…
and set the last one on fire — to the laughter of all who are watching.