Pain Don't Hurt

Forgive the title. I wanted to do something interesting and figured how better to represent that good will than with the best line from Roadhouse? That’s right, no better way. Onward we go.

Nothing ain’t something, my friends. Something ain’t nothing. I see questions of this sort all the time, and so much of the focus is misplaced in metaphysics (speculation) that we lose sight of what the problem even is. Does nothing exist? Wait… gasp - does existence exist?! Well yes, and no. Concepts can be said to exist, albeit not in the same way objects can be said to exist. Does this reveal a duality or an issue with the language we are using?

At some point, some scientists speculated the Big Bang occurred from a singularity. Well, what was before that singularity? Well, nothing, but only in manner of speaking. If you are doing nothing, are you doing something? Yes, but not because of some code-breaking secret, but because what is technically the case is not necessarily relevant to the question being asked, considering context. If someone accuses you of doing nothing, you’ll probably get a sense of what they mean or where that might apply in your life. However, you are comprised of a myriad of continuous processes taking place at all times. To do something, to take action, is to assert and demonstrate one’s existence. To talk about a thing or event, we assume its existence - and this is the sort of exploit metaphysics likes to toy with. However, in common parlance, you probably wouldn’t bother to explain that you are constantly doing things even when it seems you aren’t. You’d try to get a grasp on where their statement could apply, if at all. Similarly, with questions like “What came before the singularity?”, we can only communicate things we are aware of and capable of describing. So, yeah, “nothing” (but maybe some stuff…). Does existence exist? The question is incoherent. Why would existence be subject to itself? Does action act? Does a chair …chair? These questions arise from misunderstandings in language and the categories to which we refer. Ask a scientist if anything may have existed that we can’t describe before the singularity and you might get a more interesting answer, but ultimately we can only speak of that which we know and are even capable of describing. Do concepts exist? In the strict sense, no. Concepts aren’t ‘things’ we can wield about, but we can describe them in great detail. We can describe them well enough to paint a picture in someone else’s mind - except they are holding the brush. We can create pictures real enough that they seem to exist, yet can only ever refer to properties we’ve experienced, like dreams. Dreams are a phenomena that exist, albeit abstractly. Maybe we require a keener sense of the abstract, and levels thereof? Maybe we can be more specific in how we refer to ‘things’? Again, these are all language problems that must be addressed before we can even begin to speculate about metaphysics.

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Well, yes, that’s the usual lack of distinction between all of the next (which are all different):

  1. The thing
  2. Perception
  3. Concept made out of that perception, that refers to the thing*
  4. Communication of that concept.

Once you make the distinction explicit, many ‘problems’ cease to be.

For example, Santa doesn’t exist - what exists is the concept of Santa and the words about it.

Maybe more precise distinctions should be more useful - I’m not saying that list is the end all be all of it.

There was some useful drawing long ago, plus the usual examples of the elephant and so

*Refers to it, that thing it refers or aims to refer either existing or not

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In regards of words, there are different meanings and interpretations to everything.

”Nothing” for instance is absolutely not carrying the same meaning and sentiment as “Absence” does, even though technically they should.
The absence of everything is what nothing should be, but nobody thinks of nothing as the absence of everything. Those are two concepts sitting their own separate categories, with nothing leaning more towards a frame of reference (such as you doing nothing, referring to carrying out no constructive actions) and the absence of everything being more of a universally maximized concept.

In regards of the nothing that was before the big bang… thats a much tougher concept to comprehend. That nothing was about the complete lack of laws that constructed reality.
Every law that exists today in our universe is considered to be the result of the big bang.

What was before that, was what you could pretty accurately refer to (at least in theory) as nothing, because it was a 0 dimensional dot. No length, no width, no depth, no age, no nothing. Just a dot that cannot be even measured, so its both infinitely small and at the same time infinite and all encompassing.

But i guess this is slightly offtopic considering the point you are trying to make.
So with my rant aside:

Naturally. Words carry a meaning and definitions need to match in order to have a rational conversation.

This in and of itself can lead to speculation about the nature of fundamental concepts such as existence. Does existence exist? You say its not subject to itself, but just like in the case of “nothing” vs “absence”, existence needs to exist otherwise there is an absence of existence which means that there is none.

Now you can break it further down and make it refer to i.e. material reality.
In that case you could make the argument of emergent functions i.e. thoughts which (in the strict sense) do not consist of any matter.
So now the idea of existence not needing to exist makes a lot more sense.

But this all part and parcel of a dance with frames of reference. Framing is everything.
We are all looking at the exact same thing, namely reality, but we are all looking at it from different angles and different distances. So the frame of reference always needs to be declared if anyone is to understand the other’s position.

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Kant proposed that existence is not a predicate, and I am inclined to agree. What could it mean to say absence doesn’t exist? When we speak of about facts of the world, we assume existence. The existence of the object I refer to in a proposition is granted, so saying the object exists adds nothing to our understanding of that object. Does absence need to be absent? The question, like the statement, is incoherent.

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What does mean that Santa doesn’t exist? That what the concept “Santa” (the word too) refers to does not exist. It doesn’t say that “the concept Santa” doesn’t exist. When you talk referring to the concept, it’s customary to explicitly say so, same as with the perception and so on. Where is the incongruence?

Take for example, “A black swan exists”, means that what “a black swan” referes to exists. It could have been not the case. Now, something is not worthy or un worthy dependening on our understanding anyway

Edit: I don’t know how, but I forgot the ‘refers to’ in italics, before

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Do dreams exist? Dreams contain concepts, do they not?

I would think nearly anyone would admit dreams do not exist, at least not in the same way objects exist. Do you think that is because there are different categories of existence, or because we apply the word to anything that seems real to us?

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Of course they do.

Here is a thought exercise:
Im going to tell you that there is in fact life on Ganymede
This life cannot be compared to ANYTHING you have on earth. Its completely and fundamentally different from anything on earth, both as a whole and on a micro/macroscopic level.
Now im going to ask you: What does such an alien look like?

Or In short, to clarify the problem: Can you think of something that you do not know/are aware of?

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@statiktech

How does infinite fit into your equation of nothingness?

:clown_face:

@statiktech

A radical skeptic might say the limitations of language, scientific tools, and our three dimensional mental perception would probably inhibit our ability to guage much of anything regarding the cosmos because we are after all barely higher evolved primates with a propensity for self destruction.

We are capable of many great things and even morality, ethics, or public charity but overall deeply rooted in an animalistic primitive existence.

Perhaps the mysteries of the cosmos either way will never be unlocked for us because of the primitive existence we inhabit born one minute, dying, and dead the next. Perhaps the reality of the cosmos is to always be a mystery never unlocked. A riddle of eternity that is always largely unsolvable.

:clown_face:

It’s just lack of precission

Dreams exist. They are imagination. You imagine when you go to sleep. That is such. Now, imagine you dream of dehydrated water. What that concept (in the dream) refers to doesn’t exist. So we say dehydrated water doesn’t exist. Now, the concept of dehydrated water exists.

If you have a case in which being more precise doesn’t dissolve the apparent contradiction, let me know.

@Nausamedu you are referring to Gettier cases.

Maybe in part, but what im saying is way simpler than JTB and happens before it:
You cant think of something that you do not know.

The proposition im making is that your brain is incapable of creating new information.
It can reshape already existing information into a pattern that is original, i.e. you can take the image of an octopus and make a lovecraftian god out of it.

You cant however produce true new information.
Something that is not connected to your preexisting knowledge.
In short: You cant think of something that you do not know.

There is no scientific evidence that physics extends beyond 3 spatial dimensions. There is not one measurement that suggests physics requires more than 3 spatial dimensions.

E8 lattice? Bullshit. String theory? Bullshit.

Space-time is not “bullshit” pers’e… but there is no such thing as a “space-time”. Space-time is just a vague word that doesn’t illustrate the physical mechanism, a physical mechanism which requires only 3 spatial dimensions.

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There is no such thing as that, all the aliens in sci-fi are comparable to earthly lifeforms.

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Big bang is a concept made up by people and now is being questioned. Some are saying it never happened.

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Nothing ain’t something, my friends. Something ain’t nothing. I see questions of this sort all the time, and so much of the focus is misplaced in metaphysics (speculation) that we lose sight of what the problem even is. Does nothing exist? Wait… gasp - does existence exist?! Well yes, and no. Concepts can be said to exist, albeit not in the same way objects can be said to exist. Does this reveal a duality or an issue with the language we are using?

If its invisible does it exist?

Color is a magical property, spatial dimensions and vibrations are not magical they are universal, standard properties.

If someone generates a color in their brain the color is invisible to outsiders, can only be seen by a soul trapped inside their brain. It cannot be seen by another soul unless that soul is nuerolinked into their brain.

Invisible means something that cannot be detected, cannot be measured by the tools that you own.

Invisible means it does not exist in your current radius of comprehension. Invisible doesn’t mean that the thing does not exist.

Are you sure? I’d need a strong proof for that

I bet most new information is not created, but some has to be. If we, for example, analyze and divide the ‘reshaping’of existing information in two parts, one is already known, and the other is not, and that part is new.

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Precisely. Because nobody can think of something they do not know.

And you concluded this based on fiction and scifies.
Who knew we dont need to search the universe for life when can just teach Star-Trek as a fact. Am i rite?

So are scifies.

Well can you think of something you do not know?
Or can you point at any information in human history that was created by a human without observation and derivation? In short: continuity?

I invite you to try.
Can you think of something that is not derived from knowledge/information you have?
Something entirely and fundamentally new that is in no shape or form connected to what you already know.

Its fun.

No. That part is observation and observation is not creation.
You are correct that you can observe new things which you did not know about.
But thats fundamentally not what i am asking of you. Can you create something new? Even if on a thought/information basis.

Furthermore: The amount of new things you can observe is limited to reality.
You are but a mirror, reflecting what is in front of you. You are limited twice:
First by your own scope, being only able to perceive what you can observe.
Second by the very fact that you cannot create something that is not there, thus the amount of information you can possess being limited to what you can observe in this reality, and nothing more.
You can turn yourself into a kaleidoscope and transform the incoming information into all kinds of new patterns, but its still all limited to the input.

Im very much open to disagreement on this.
If you can disprove or critique what im saying, im all open for it.

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That’s the old Anselm argument of god, for example, that you can think of things you cannot conceptualize properly.

Certainly, if we are to say every change is derivative, we can cut that change into what is the same as before and what is new, and such part is new.

I think I can! I cannot, for sure, explain it to you, since for doing so we have to use language and language is what refers to things you already know. But I can think of it.

But, if you are going to say that something being a new idea shares the fact of being an idea with the before things, well, yes, in that way it never ceases to have some things in common, tho the part that is different is different.

I can perceive things in my dreams that I can never observe.

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Yes and no. I mean yes. If you were to cut it off from what was before then all you’d be left with is the new.
But thats the very problem. You cannot cut it off because for that domino to fall, the one before needs to fall and push it. There is continuity. Causality. One begets the next.

Same with information.
You can have dreams. You can have wild dreams. You can drug yourself and have a trip with the hat man and the DMT metal elves in the pocket dimension but even those are rooted in what you know.
If you pull your brain apart hard enough you might get disassociation, as it begins to fail to make the connections between what, why, how you would know things.
Those are the “enlightenment” experiences where you feel that you were given something completely new. And thats one hell of a f-ing sensation to boot.
Life changing sensation.
Specifically because even the notion of experiencing something like this is so alien to us that it leaves a life long memory. A precious little shiny thing you were “handed” because you skull f-ed yourself so hard that you cant tell where it came from.

/
So there are many things here which scratch the surface of creating new information, but none which actually do by the strict sense of the definition.

Im searching for an example that is not some “blurred lines” grey zone of concepts like a drug trip or simply observing something new.
Im seeking an example where you can simply, as is, create something that is wholly, completely, fundamentally alien to all you possess in terms of information and knowledge. No continuity. No causation. No derivation. No reformatting. No reshaping. No simple pattern mixing.
Something straight outta the box new.

This is also kinda the AI thing.
You know, the poor things cant make anything new. Only reprocess information that they have been fed. Reinventing the wheel endlessly.
You cant make an AI that just “knows” things without prior information. It has to learn it. And all it creates will be based on what it has learned. Nothing new, just reshaped.

Not really, it just has some things in common. You are just saying it is the case instead of backing up how it is impossible to come up with something new. I think it’s very comforting to say all change is continuous or so, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

The problem is, if you think having two situation having anything in common means one is based on the other, yeah, you’ll see all experiences as derivative or so, or having something in common, because at least you is in common there… but does that mean that apart from the commonalities you can’t bring in something new?

It’s more or less like saying every place you visit is more or less the same because you are in all those places

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