Philosophy redux

I suspect we need to revisit philosophy in order to make
sense of it…

One: Philosophy… the very word itself has meaning, Philosophy
means ‘‘love of wisdom’’

and in the beginning was wonder… or so it is said… we philosophize
from wonder…

but both statements are in question… it is clear that very few around
here actually ‘‘love wisdom’’… around ILP, people operate within philosophy
as one of two things, one most people around here are engaged in philosophy
as a means of converting people into a certain viewpoint…
polemists… not philosophers… and the difference lies with polemists
have a viewpoint, and they are arguing from that viewpoint,
but not engaged in philosophy in which they would see if that
viewpoint of theirs is actually a valid, philosophical viewpoint,
they assume that their viewpoint is automatically the correct
viewpoint, without any examination of what that viewpoint entails…
that is what polemical means, beginning with a set viewpoint that
is no examined for its value…

the other common ILP user is a dilettante: a person who cultivates
an area of interest, such as the arts, without any real commitment
or knowledge…

Between these two viewpoints, dilettante and polemical,
that covers 99.9 % of everyone who uses ILP…
Very few, maybe 3 people on ILP, are actual philosophers…
So let us return to my first point, philosophers are people who
philosophize from wonder, but that is not true… we can philosophize
from any number of reasons… my own case is that I philosophize
from doubt…part of my questions is the Kantian questions,
''What am I to do?" ''What can I believe in?" ''What can I know?"

Kierkegaard once said about himself: "What I really must do is to
get clear about what I must do, not what I must know’’

but there are other reasons one may engage in philosophy…
that of wonder, that of doubt, that of love, the engagement with
knowledge as with Kierkegaard…

So, the beginning of philosophy begins with a word, why?
Why do we philosophize? Most people skip this part on their
way to their attempt to convert others to their viewpoint,
or to show off their ‘‘knowledge’’…

Philosophy isn’t about converting others to a viewpoint, as much
as it is about understanding our own viewpoint and is that
viewpoint really valid and worth pursuing… in other
words, philosophy is an engagement with our own
knowledge and understanding… which is why I quite
frequently say to reexamine your own values and beliefs…
engage with what you know and hold to be true…
That is philosophy… Now quite a few people will comment
on how wrong I am, but it is those same people who are
polemists, not philosophers… and they argue from a certain,
set viewpoint… instead of engaging in the question, is their
viewpoint valid and hold truths for who they are…

Or said another way, Philosophy is a private question,
not a public question… Are the truths I proclaim, actually
truths worth holding to? We can’t even understand our own
private truths, why do we engage in public truths, when
we can’t even know or understand our own private truths?

In the beginning: What truths are my truths… not the truths
I was indoctrinated in, nationalism, theology, philosophical
society/state truths, but what are my own truths? and are those
truths, truths worth having and holding? Can I live my life
with those truths? remember the Kantian question,
''What am I to do?" And can we apply our own truths to
the question of… '“What am I to do?”
We use our truths to guide us in this question of
''What am I to do?".. That is the point of having truths/values…
they are to guide us in this question of '“What am I to do?”

But philosophy also guides us in the second Kantian
question, ''What am I to believe in?"… What values/truths do
I believe in and why those truths/values instead of other truths/values…
How do I justify holding these truths/values? This can be our
private truths/values that we can turn into public values and truths…
I hold to what is called ‘‘WOKE’’ values and truths…
that we treat people with dignity, respect and with the opinion
that all people, ALL PEOPLE, deserve dignity, respect
and are treated with tolerence…
I hold that these values/truths are the right truths/values
because we live in a society/state… that we are social creatures
that must, MUST live within a state/society and the best way
for that state/society to grow and get better is by the fair
and equitable treatment of all its citizens… that the goal,
the real goal of the state/society isn’t the safety/security
of that state/society, but the real reason we can reside
within a state/society is through the equal application of
justice… the real reason for the state/society lies within
this idea that the state/society is responsible for the
application of justice for all its citizens, not the application
of safety/security of its citizens…
The Locken idea that the state exists for the protection of
private property is wrong…recall the Declaration of Independence,

‘‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their creator, with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty
and the pursuit of happiness’’…

that the phrase the Pursuit of happiness is another way of saying
the pursuit of property… and this clause has caused a great deal
of trouble and discontentment in the state and society…
for the fact is, we cannot guarantee that everyone in the state/
society will in fact, not be able to own property…
and therein lies part of the malaise and discontentment
in modern day society…that no matter how hard we try,
we cannot, under any circumstances, reach the point of
getting everyone in the state/society property…
we, not without a massive reorganization of the entire state/society,
we cannot get everyone who wants it, property…
but justice, that we can get everyone in the state/society
justice… which is simply the application of equality to
all, to everyone within that state… and it is under this
application of justice that we can use to justify the so called,
‘‘Welfare State’’ and the application of DEI rules… to remove
DEI rules means that we have rejected justice as a rule for
people…

For part of the problem we have, philosophically anyway,
is that we have no sense or understanding of the goal or
point of existence… and there is the omega of our
philosophical understanding, we have the beginning,
why do we philosophize, and the ending, for what goal
or purpose do we philosophize… what is the beginning
and what is the end of philosophy…

That we ‘‘hold these truths to be self-evident’’ is to suggest
what exactly? that there is an alpha and omega within
philosophy… and I have pointed out before, without a
proper beginning, we cannot get to a good end…
in other words, if we begin in the wrong place, we will
end up in the wrong place… that is the basic understanding
of travel… we can only end up in the right place if we first
understand where we are beginning from and having a clear
understanding of the goal we are trying to reach…
this is just as true about philosophy as it is about traveling…

So, we have at least three aspects of philosophy…
one, is the start, the beginning of philosophy,
two, is the journey we take and three, the final goal
of philosophy…

‘‘That we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator,
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,
Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness’’

so, given our understanding of the alpha and omega of
philosophy, what is the beginning of this statement…
that we hold these truths to be self-evident…
but the statement about holding these truths to be self-evident,
leaves us without an Omega… what is the ending supposed to be?
to what end do we practice holding these truths to be self-evident?
What is the end goal of existence given this truth?

But we do hold that truths and the goals of existence are not,
not dependent on holding to a god or a religion… that we can
create our own goals and truths…
that goals and truths can come from within us, that we can
create and find our own truths and goals… we can also
apply those found goals and truths to a state/society…
that truths and goals are found within us and transferred to
the state/society, not the other way around, from the state/society
to us… so, we begin by examining what are our values and
truths… which is exactly where I started from…
and then apply those truths and values to the state/society…
once we understand what the goal or purpose of
existence we can apply those values/truths to everyday existence…

Kropotkin

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So, is it true that existence has a goal or purpose?

an individual goal or purpose, of course, but what
about a collective purpose? during WW 2, we in the west,
America for one, had the purpose of fighting and defeating
the Nazi’s… We did have a collective goal, a collective purpose…
and so, given this history, we can have a collective goal/purpose
if there seems to be enough motivation…but oftentimes
this collective motivation is lost because we see the present
as being something other that what it is… we are in denial
about what is currently within reality…

that we are threatened by several aspects of our existence,
that of global warming, that of overpopulation, that of pollution,
that of inequality within economics… and we could see this
and then act upon these dangers if, IF we weren’t so
‘‘enamored’’ with our prior indoctrinations… we see reality through
these indoctrinations of nationalism, of theology, of patriotism,
of wealth, of status… remove these indoctrinations and
begin to see the world as it is, not as our indoctrinations
paint reality…

Let us take one indoctrination, that of god…
if we were to see reality without the influence of god,
we could see reality, the idea of ''What am I to do?" in far
different light… we cannot see our way clear of reality
because we are so taken by our childhood indoctrinations of god…
remove this indoctrination of god, and one will see reality and the
three Kantian questions in far different light…

“What am I to do?” ''What am I supposed to believe in?
“What can I know?” without god, the answers to these questions
become far different… much closer to reality… the question
of god changes our understanding of the goal and purpose of
existence… remove god from the equation, and the goal and
purpose of existence changes… both individually and collectively…
remove god from the equation and both the beginning and the
ending changes in our viewpoint… a different starting point
leads us to a different ending, different goal and purpose…

Kropotkin

Можно выделить основные лингвистические системы в общественных отношениях: идеология, философия, кодекс и религия. Хорошо бы определиться с их генезисом по мере усложнения общественных отношений..

my opinion of DEI rules… you should not be allowed to bully or commit crimes based on DEI principles..

as far as a corporation hiring people… The right to work at a Corporation should not be constitutionally protected… if the CEO is black and feels comfortable around blacks they should not be forced to hire whites and muslims… Would you force a black CEO to hire whites and muslims?

Remember you said this is a philosophy thread not a polemics thread… What is your own personal opinion… not what the Constitution says or a government says but your own personal opinion on whether or not, in a utopian society should a black CEO be forced to hire whites and muslims..?

If an artist wants to make a movie, film, or game… should they be forced by the government to have character diversity… or are they free to put whatever type of characters they want to?

You’re a philosophical machine Peter.You exist because you need to exist to claim that you don’t exist.If you claim that you don’t exist then you’re a liar that exists.So it’s already established that you are a machine that exists and is programmed with binary software but doesn’t possess metaphysical life which is why you claim that you are a misrepresentation of reality (an illusion) rather than a representation of reality (a non illusion).

The correct starting philosophy for all the sciences is good/bad=good/bad

One of the problems within ILP is that people will take a stance,
but forget that every single ‘‘stance’’ has real practical applications
within life… MR. A is ADMIT on holding to a dictatorship… but
he fails to consider that within a true dictatorship, he would,
at a minimum, be sent to prison as an enemy of the state…he
just assumes that he is safe within a dictatorship… he doesn’t
apply his values/truths to what is reality… and the reality is that
within a dictatorship, only one voice counts, and that voice
isn’t MR. A… he doesn’t apply his truths, his values to his
situation/reality… and that why it fails… it has no real world
application that ends well… we would want a situation, political
and otherwise to include us as well… and a dictatorship will
simply put MR. A as well as millions of people, including me,
into a prison… but MR A, never considers this… as most people
simply assume that they are, in some fashion, exempted from
their own conclusions…they are not…MR. A believes
he is in some fashion, exempted from his own conclusions that
America should be a dictatorship…

If one accepts one’s values/truths, you have to hold to the fact
that all one’s conclusions must include yourself… I hold to
a democracy where voting is most important… and why?
Because this is the reality I want for myself… to have a voice
in my own political, economic and philosophical world…
I want a say in what happens to me… and a democracy with
elections is the best way to achieve that…
The reality I work for is a reality I want for me…
and the reality I want for everyone… to have a voice in their
own lives…something that is lacking in today’s world…

so, our beliefs and values must be reality based and include us
within the context of the state and society…So, holding to idiotic
beliefs like wanting a dictatorship beyond dumb… because it
won’t, can’t end well for anyone including the dictator in question…

so, we must put our values and truths in context within a state
or society if we want to know if those values and truths are
really values/truths we should/want hold to…

Kropotkin

1 Like

Boris Roik:

Можно выделить основные лингвистические системы в общественных отношениях: идеология, философия, кодекс и религия. Хорошо бы определиться с их генезисом по мере усложнения общественных отношений..

K: this is an useless post because what, maybe 2 people on
ILP may know this language… it has no value because virtually
no one can read it… does a tree that falls in a forest, actually
make a sound? Only if there is someone to hear it…

Kropotkin

and as usual, missing the entire point of this thread…
but I expect nothing different from you…

Kropotkin

Все всё переводят…. сейчас не те времена. Можете писать хоть на эретрийском… я прочитаю. Учитесь пользоваться компьютером это очень важно в наше время.:melting_face:

Jupiter123:

You’re a philosophical machine Peter.You exist because you need to exist to claim that you don’t exist.If you claim that you don’t exist then you’re a liar that exists.So it’s already established that you are a machine that exists and is programmed with binary software but doesn’t possess metaphysical life which is why you claim that you are a misrepresentation of reality (an illusion) rather than a representation of reality (a non illusion).

The correct starting philosophy for all the sciences is good/bad=good/bad

K: and one of the people and not being able to separate themselves from their
own indoctrinations… for you everyone has to begin on that point,
This idea that the starting place for all ‘‘science’’ is ''good/bad= good/bad…
has it ever occurred to you that you are wrong, not just a little bit
wrong, but seriously wrong?.. of course not… you are so lost
in your own indoctrinations that you can’t even see past this idea
of good/bad… I would ask you to engage in some thinking about
your already in place indoctrinations, like this good/bad idea of yours,
but you are already so locked into it, you can’t have an honest
reevaluation of your values… and that is why you are a polemist,
not a philosopher…

Kropotkin

I thought this was a philosophical discussion here… Or is it polemics, you are “mad” because you didn’t convince me of your position and that I have a different position?

You are many things Peter but you are no coward. Stop cowering away and give me a proper response to my questions.

I am not wrong Peter …I am 100% correct because equal but opposite electromagnetic forces do not cancel out in the cosmos.I’m not asking for your opinion on this because you haven’t the first clue about philosophy.I am telling you.

It’s you who has been indoctrinated with a cognitively biased starting philosophy which mainstream science is presently adopting which is precisely why all of its theories have failed.

The philosophy and science derived from that philosophy which I adopt hasn’t failed.It keeps going from strength to strength.

The correct starting philosophy for reality is +/-=+/- (The + and - are force absolutes) ….It is not +=- and -=+ philosophy which you adopt.

Boris Roik:

Все всё переводят…. сейчас не те времена. Можете писать хоть на эретрийском… я прочитаю. Учитесь пользоваться компьютером это очень важно в наше время.:melting_face:

K: whatever… this has no value because for me anyway, because I can’t read it…
it might have some value to someone who can read this, but to the average
person on ILP, it has no value of any kind… good job on writing something
that is less than worthless…

Kropotkin

Jupiter123:

I am not wrong Peter …I am 100% correct because equal but opposite electromagnetic forces do not cancel out in the cosmos.I’m not asking for your opinion on this because you haven’t the first clue about philosophy.I am telling you.

It’s you who has been indoctrinated with a cognitively biased starting philosophy which mainstream science is presently adopting which is precisely why all of its theories have failed.

The philosophy and science derived from that philosophy which I adopt hasn’t failed.It keeps going from strength to strength.

The correct starting philosophy for reality is +/-=+/- (The + and - are force absolutes) ….It is not +=- and -=+ philosophy which you adopt.

K: and this is why you are a polemist, not a philosopher…

Kropotkin

futureone:
I thought this was a philosophical discussion here… Or is it polemics, you are “mad” because you didn’t convince me of your position and that I have a different position?

You are many things Peter but you are no coward. Stop cowering away and give me a proper response to my questions.

K: as you have missed the point of my thread, there is no reason to
answer you…

Kropotkin

I am the best philosopher you will ever correspond with.

You claim that good is bad and bad is good as your starting philosophy.You claim that there is no God.

These are unsubstantiated guesses…..HOPES!!!

Nothing more.

Mainstream science adopts your +=- and -=+ starting philosophy and what a farce that has become.

You know nothing about how philosophy works or its connection to science.

As attractive and repulsive electromagnetic force absolutes do not cancel out in the cosmos science can now be explained.

Jupiter123:

I am the best philosopher you will ever correspond with.

You claim that good is bad and bad is good as your starting philosophy.You claim that there is no God.

These are unsubstantiated guesses…..HOPES!!!

Nothing more.

Mainstream science adopts your +=- and -=+ starting philosophy and what an total embarrassment that is.

K: You are not even a philosopher… you are a polemist…
attempting to convince people of a certain viewpoint…
whereas real philosopher would examine, or reexamine their
values/truths…nor have I engaged with, as you put it,
‘‘good is good and bad is good’’ as this doesn’t even make any
sense… and as for their being a god, there is no proof or
evidence of any kind that there is a god… for hopes play no
role in this… for to hold to a god is to deny that people
have their own values and truths…if there is a god,
you don’t have a life as a human being…recall that
the wrong starting point leads us to having the wrong
destination, the wrong goal/purpose… if there is a god,
then human beings have no point or value within themselves…
with a god I am devalued as a human being…
I have no value or point as Kropotkin, if there is a god…
the only way, as a human being I have value or worth,
that there is no god…
I want human beings to have value and worth and that is
only possible without a god…

Kropotkin

1 Like

I am telling you that +/-=+/- is the correct starting philosophy for reality Peter….I am not asking for your opinion.I know what I am talking about…you don’t.

+=- and -=+ relates to good and bad moral absolutes.You claim that there is no God and therefore no such thing as good and bad moral absolutes because that is your initial philosophical guess.

How do you know that your guess is correct Peter? …the reality is you don’t.

But then you don’t live in reality do you Peter.You even claim to be a misrepresentation of it (an illusion),

Still waiting for you to do this.

This logically does not follow…

God may “devalue” humans as the Alpha species of the food chain… Devalue does not mean “0” value.

Reassess your logic procedures.

Second, you always refer to seemingly the Bible god, in your critique of god seems to be the Abrahamic god, and applicable only to the Abrahamic god…

What about an ASI God, would that cause humans to have 0 value or what?

Third… many Abrahamics seem to be positive and self-valuing individuals, and many atheists are nihilists that have low self-valuing.

let us further examine this idea of a god being a devaluation
of human beings…

for we are to sacrifice ourselves for god… that is quite clear
within the bible that human beings are, at best, cannon fodder
for god…for the only thing that matters are god and his values,
not human beings and their values… and this viewpoint,
that we exist for the betterment of god, is pure nihilism…
for it devalues human beings and their values…it dismisses
human beings in favor of god… and that is the nihlism
of capitalism and communism and other religions such
as Buddhism… we are supposed to sacrifice ourselves
for the isms in question…and that is nihilism…

Kropotkin