Police Officer Shot Unarmed, Naked Man

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

nbcdfw.com/news/local/Austin … 89001.html

He killed a Naked man. No racism claim viable, both are Black. The Naked man charged him… so likely wasn’t sober.

Did you know you can buy a stun gun in China town for $3 bucks?

Listen… I, or any guy on this forum, have a 50-50 chance of winning a fight. Hell, might even be lower than that, given the individual we are up against… no 50-50 chance probability against Mike Tyson, I would just lose.

But most people, even those intidating and generally tougher and stronger, are only going to charge after you as a cop, if they are threatened, and are aware fighting a cop is bad. They might think they can win, but it’s still a threatening situation to be in, most criminally minded guys don’t want… fighting a cop, even a wimp.

When I first entered the army, I had amazing legs, like a weighlifter. Calves absurdly large. Arms… pencil thin, had trouble doing pushups and pull ups. People loved me on the March or Runs, not so much in the yard pushing. I was very intimidated grappling… some of those guts could climb multiple stories on a rope using only their arms. I most definitely could not.

So, what did I do when it can time to bout, one on one, kicking explicitly banned (my one biological advantage)? I knew back then one… just one, martial arts move, called a shadow kick. Basically, when guys are lunging at me, I use gravity to drop my ass to the side, I swing one foot (bottom foot) to the lower front of their legs, just above the ankle. The other leg, I connect hard to the back of the knees…

Down the go, just like me… but now I got initiative, whereas they are confused and shocked. You can use this time to climb on them, choke them out, or grapple with them at a weird angle.

It was for the longest time, my one move. You can’t keep repeating the same move over and over… forced me to look into martial arts books, learn more. But hey, shit works, and guts on the street don’t know if it us your only move.

Not saying everyone shadowkick… just saying there are options other than pulling a trigger… even when your opponent is much stronger and intimidating. If for whatever reason, your police chief won’t approve your stun gun carry request, look into basic material arts. Nobody expects you to be Jet Li… we are talking one or two moves even a older fat woman can pull off, that can quickly drop a aggressive, close range opponent, so you don’t feel the dire need to reach for your gun every time you get scared. After that, choke them till they tap out. Their muscles and ability to punch doesn’t count for much if they are in their side, unable to throw a straight punch. Yeah, they will still pound you, you’ll be purple and blue in the face and elbows, a little bloody, but hey, at least your not on the national news for shooting someone.

It all comes down to the willingness to engadge in contact, and to follow through. I think, deep down inside, most men are just better than me at fighting. They are naturally better at everything. After years in being in the military or security, I have to say, despite bring scared and intimidated almost always, looking like your not, keeping your shoulders squared, feet wide so you can easily be taken down, eye contact matters more.

Secondly, letting it show your more than willing to take their ass down, however much it costs you physically, causes them to pause. When people judge one another, it’s on the concept if schoolyard victory in a fight. Most guys will over evaluate themselves, in your case, DON’T! You want him thinking he is bad assed, while your hand is shaking slightly from the Adrenaline Shock. Why? Cause your fighting for survival, your not easily upsetted by indications your losing, you entered with the mindset this could happen. In his case, your opponent is in a state if surprise and shock, bewildered you just took his ass down… even if winning, the instinct to stay and win will be severely checkered by the desire to run, grow a mustash and assume a cheese alias for the next 20 years… he just fought a cop.

When your showing up to a scene, it’s… a scene. If it’s domestic violence, losing a fight can be as good as winning it. You are there to stop the fight. Him unleashing on you will get him running once he realizes what just happened, even if your blackeyed on the ground. 99.99 percent of the time, he is running, not abusing. Beat up on a cop, child services have a slam dunk case as far as custody goes. Backup will arrive, neighbors are watching. But if you shoot him… fuck, they are likely drunk, was a marital squabble, you just killed her husband, father of her child. That is to be avoided. Now, she is more or less completely dependent as a Ward of the state as far as finances go, the children are very unlikely to be financial successes. You just caused a generational rift going for a few generations cause you went for a gun instead of dropping the asshole to the ground.

Yeah… you don’t have to be a baddass to win a fight. You don’t even have to be superior, you can be quite inferior, scared, and lose face in more than one sense. But you know what? Thats part of your job as a police officer. Play the defensive when you can, but you cannot be scared to make contact. I’m talking to all cops, but not just the straight out of college or military guys. I’m saying this to the older ones, both sexes. I’m not feeling that young, out of shape, bad knee and ribs, and I’m still saying, be willing to step up and make contact. Doesn’t mean throw a punch if you can’t, but learn grappling. Even if you just hold them in place on the ground, with your legs wrapped around their hips, arms and hands covering your face and chest as they beat you relentlessly with their fists, in a residential or city area, someone is calling for backup… your holding them in place. He thinks he is winning, but he is losing… you’ve contained him. Cops aren’t after a sense of school yard victory, they are after public order. If you keep them from hurting others, your doing good.

Lastly, don’t underestimate a shot to the knee. If you gotta shoot, a head shot, or center mass, doesn’t got to be the kind of shot you take. If your really, really scared shirtless enough to qualify pulling your gun, have no taser or stun gun, if it is long enough to have one thought, just try to focus on a leg, and blast it. You can jump backwards like a bitch afterwards, run and hide behind the police car, whatever… but he is not dead, which is a good thing.

Don’t try the grappling if your on a isolated roadgrappling alone deep in country, he will kill you if given enough time, cause no one is calling for backup, as deer don’t carry phones.

2

Well, there’s a value judgment involved too - it’s not merely a question of evaluating the odds of winning the combat, it’s a matter of questioning the value of rolling the dice on it at all to spare a person from the consequences of their actions- action in this case being charging a cop naked.

I mean, what about the naked guy’s gamble? If he’s mentally retarded, that’s one thing. But assuming he isn’t, when you charge a cop, you must know “I am rolling the dice with my life as the stakes”. He had to know that, and he rolled anyway. He got snake-eyes.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think I’ve always had a maxim in the back of my mind something like “If you choose to physically attack a police officer, your life is forfeit”. Maybe if you’re Chuck Norris or the cop is super nice, you won’t die, but you shouldn’t go into that situation assuming “ah, he’ll just tase me or whatever, no big”. I don’t feel particularly oppressed by this state of affairs, or consider society unjust on the basis of it- to the contrary, it seems about right to me.

It’s interesting that you’re judging the situation from the perspective of what the cop ought to be thinking and doing, and I’m approaching it from what the citizen ought to be thinking and doing.

My understanding is outside the gym and the movies, people routinely suffer brain damage and broken necks from being choked out. Wasn’t there a case recently where whether or not a cop used a choke hold was the main point of investigation because they are extremely dangerous and thus illegal? I thought the Baltimore thing was about that.

3

Yes, you can kill someone, but cops are trained in this. Its a different kind of choke, you got arteries, you got a windpipe.

Yes, agreed, I expect anyone charging a cop is forfeiting their life, and this is taken in stances of legitimate self defense, or defence of a charge your expected to protect. I’m not telling anyone to charge across the food court to knock down a suicide bomber. At the same time, we need to put higher standards for cops, and security too. While I was a security guard, I had to physically nail a few guys… most just intimidated, but did have to get physical, guys spent time in jail because of it. It hurts me daily, cause they were young and stupid, now they have a mark on their record, can’t get a good job or decent apartment when they go to have kids. My goal was always to dissuade. Doesn’t impress the boss as much when I go months and months without stopping a theft, but not having to report a theft either made me look good. Its called being proactive. We had guys in the state of California, security, shooting guys over very petty theft, stealing spark plugs. I don’t care if your armed, if they are armed even… fuck, nobody dies over spark plugs. Asshole got off scotfree.

Cop may have a right to shoot you, under your “values”, but these values take second place against Categorical Imperatives and Use of Force parameters. Its not up for debate “I’m not a Kantian”… Categorical Imperitives are the main philosophical teaching of the US Army, we made it fucking work. Our use of force considerations are constantly restructured to allow for inconsistencies that arise when old ideas get chucked out the window.

For example, I’m saying “Don’t kill, go out of the way not to kill”… this would go away if there was constant rioting, raping, jihadi insurgency… something extreme. You also want your cops educated enough to realize when the rules the department goes by doesn’t apply… you want to predict the scenario though, run them through such things (someone breaking quarantine, like some radical nurse screaming ‘I believe in Science’ rushing a barricade with a very nasty disease for example, Its 100% okay to shoot her in the head to protect yourself and the public, and serve as a detergent for any other cross eyed liberals wanting to spread disease).

They need to be strongly pro life, willing to risk their own for the sake of others. Named man attacking police should not be shot to death… he isn’t a suicide bomber, he isn’t a armed bank robber. If your a cop, you should have the tactical finesse, the ability to read the situation, to make the split second decision to say “this guy is clearly on drugs, needs to be put in a drink tank and evaluated by a psychiatrist in a mental institute” and do everything in his power to insure this guy lives. Justice isn’t always jail, it isn’t always wearing a badge and standing tall, sometimes it is a simple as getting your ass whooped by a crazed Naked guy till backup arrives to tackle him. You take a breath, take your stance, take it like a man. “This guy will not die tonight”. It isn’t glamous, you get no rewards for it, but such a mindset is a positive effect for the generations. Your not acting on the mindset of “I’m a cop, I have the right to” but rather “I’m a cop, and I’m looking out for my community one scuffle at a time”. Not everyone needs arrested, some just need talked down. I’ve caught a few shoplifters, had them give me the stuff back and discussed it with them. If they can be reasoned, I do so. I tell them not to get started on such things. My $600+ brackets and belts and scarfs were a high target. Yet, Kmart security jails people for two years plus over stealing laundry detergent and food. Honestly, fuck… not once when I worked there (very short while) did security say “you know what, I’m going to hook you up with a good clinic downtown, and a social worker, instead of the cops.” You already know what they look like, so does the staff, they aren’t coming back. Nobody has to go to jail, they have a path forward. But everyone is obsessed with the bottom line that they have a right to do these things. Your not a good steward of your society when you think in such a mindset. Your society will progressively fail, and no amount of socialism can save you, because it will be a socialist state ran by shitheads.

It doesn’t occur to us to salute the cop who just got himself (or herself) monkeystomped, but they went toe to toe with someone who was better than them, for the sake of preserving a life. I applaud this. Its not sexy, but it’s a very noble impulse,to look down a set of eyes with rage in the uttermost act of destruction and see something worthwhile, countering and containing them the best you can. It is very hard, it us very scary, very intimidating. Its also part of being a cop. I wish I could give a medal to every cop in the world who ever cared enough to try. I hold you on a higher standard, I ask for each of you reading this post to meet it.

4

I remember when one had to consider the danger of reaching into your jacket suddenly when police were focused on you. IOW when you might do something perfectly innocent and no threat to the police but which could, in some circumstances - such as you see the police, they have told you not to move, the police are pointing guns at you…etc. - be considered a fraction of a second before you used deadly force. And it seems like the drift has gone towards, might possibly, though it has likely never happened before in history, be a situation where the police might get shot. This means police should have the right to simply shoot the passenger of any car they stop, since it surely has happened a number of times that said passenger or driver already has a gun out. The broken taillight or speeding putting some infinitesmal % closer to be a more serious criminal. If the teenager was enormous and was standing over a body with a broken neck, now you are getting up in reasonable use of force scenarios. Perhaps there are others, I would certainly give the officer his day in court to demonstrate the signs of likely deadly force on the part of the dead teenager and why he did not use his baton, pepper spray or run first.

Because of how they are treated in the courts - generally. It wasn’t like this when I was a kid. Which is why they planted guns, some times, on people they shot. Now they may not need to plant guns.

I would like the police more concerned about killing people. I’d want them to consider that a naked man has a good chance of being retarded, drunk or insane or in tremendous emotional pain - his kid just died, etc. I want the police officer to feel like he is competent enough to use non-deadly force unless he has good reason not to. I want it very hard for police to kill people. If they can shoot people for running toward them, they can kill anyone and say that person was running toward them. At least put them to the trouble of having to plant a knife or a gun.

The fact that he had to know or should have known is a problem. A naked teenager, in this case, who does not know, seems likely to not be fully sane. This should factor into the policemans judgment.

But perhaps the police officer should have known that he was going to deal with aggressive people, when he took on the job, and that part of his duty is not to use more violence than necessary.

Well, of course one looks at it in terms of the police officer’s thinking. He is the paid professional who should be following the rules we determine and that we consider moral and rational. Of course the other guy was doing something fucked up - unless we learn something new about the situation. We have laws in place and a system that supports those rules. Hit a cop and you go to jail and likely prison/probation later. The concern is that the system may well be lowering the standards for deadly force on the side of police - and in generally allowing for more violence. If I knew the naked guy and he survived the situation with the cop and I cared about him I would fucking scream at him for being an idiot and an asshole, and I would not worry about the sentence he got for assaulting an officer.

I consider a conservative tendency on my part to focus on the police officer’s behavior since I see a trend toward allowing more violence on the police side.

And of course the other guy is dead.

Perhaps you can find an instance where a naked person killed a police officer. I cannot find one.

and in this case it was a teenager. Of course, maybe he was huge and powerful looking. Perhaps he was eating from the neck of a human corpse before the charge. I’ll send a letter to the judge in defense of the guy if that’s the case.

As far as I can see the officer was only justified in using intermediate force. The subject was aggressive force which was not likely to lead to the death someone. That precludes the use of using bullets aimed at center mass - which is really the only place to aim them.

5

No law against NOT aiming center mass, they just won’t pass you in police academy or your marksman training, and you don’t get to be a cop with a gun. Hope you like collecting money out of parking meters if that is the case.

Cops really need time shooting sim rounds at one another.

What is a sim round?
simunition.com/en/products/fx_marking_cartridges

Its a real bullet, just shoots a tad bit slower, and has a paint marker on the end. They can be painful, I got a few scars on my body from them when I ran around with my sleeves rolled up.

For my M4 rifle, I needed to change out my bolt, for a modified bolt, but got to use MY RIFLE in practice, shooting real flying bullets at real people.

Equipment you need (both sides)

  1. Paintball mask… they are designed for frozen paintballs, do work (I attest to this) on simrounds.

  2. Protective cup for your junk.

  3. Wear your police vest,

  4. They made us after a while wear helmets and everything, but I did it for a long time using a thick Bali/Baklava. Back of the skull is thick.I can spot one scar on my base knuckle of my right index finger, I was experimenting using mountain mirrors on my rifle (got into trouble for “cheating”, but everyone was impressed as they never thought of it before). I used leather Army Paratrooper Gloves, slight penetration there.

  5. Include knee pads, doesn’t need to be tactical, can be carpenter knee pads.

I wore civilian clothes otherwise. I’m very serious about protective sports cups… there is a video of a guy in Fort Wainwright getting shot in the nuts by them, he can’t have kids now, wear your cups.

Obviously, the laundry list of material is dirt cheap, most can be found for free in any police station.

The expense is sim rounds, and the bolt.

Here is a listing of the bolts this particular company stocks.
simunition.com/en/products/conve … /1-pistols

They don’t list a price, but it’s a non lethal piece of metal for a gun, it’s not going to kill any police department to buy two of these for the main model of gun your officers majority carry.

No need for a special school, 200 hours of classes, etc. You go back into a unfurnitured concrete room, fuck, stairwell would work, and you practice unholstering YOUR GUN, aiming NOT CENTER MASS. I’m talking knee shots (wear your pads if you like your patella) and arm shots, feet if your really looking to give them a distinctive limp, etc.

Cop 1 charges Cop 2.

Cop 2 pulls weapon, misses knee like, ten times. After 15, hits it sometimes, 20, it’s a built in reflex.

I mean they get charged 20 times, not shoot 20 times in one charge.

Close proximity, the shooting cop needs to be aware they may get tackled (not in the stairwell) to add to the fear err element.

If you do this in close proximity bouts, the officer getting knocked down but still looking to make a mark, in a debilitating, yet non lethal spot, they have a solid chance of not being a pussy and shooting unarmed naked men, or guts running away from them during traffic pullovers, or a homeless man sleeping in a rock shelter 20 yards away holding a knife defensively scared as shit and otherwise alone and harmless.

Army claimed to of paid 1 million dollars a day for my training in a mostly abandoned Airforce Base in Victorsville, California.

I already had a bum knee, so was put on the force everyone was attacking. Somehow, me shooting these cheap as fuck bullets at guys wearing old used paintball gear in a abandoned military residential neighborhood that close down in the late cold war, cost 6 million dollars. They sure the fuck didn’t spend it on the food.

I was attacked multiple times, day and night, by a battalion, platoon after platoon. People act very differently when they don’t know how bad the bullets will hurt the first time. After a while, you don’t care… but every few people will ever get shot up as much as me. You learn that people really suck at shooting, and moving around in combat isn’t as impossible as you might think. I remember trying to get into a window I could barely pull myself up into, my ass was dangling out of it, two squads of guys in the next room, saying they were surrounded… across the courtyard some blind fuck kept trying to shoot my ass, and kept missing… was a fantastic target, never got it, just like I never got in the room. Very sad, I walked back with bullets landing in front and behind me, none hitting me. I could hear the platoon across the courtyard complaining how bad their new guys were at shooting.

Nothing funner though.

I strongly recommend every police force get the above gear (shop around), start off humble, bullets aren’t going to banctrupt you… and just practice… especially close range, intimidation. Your trained to shoot far away center mass… but what about five feet, trying not to kill the guy? You gotta use sim rounds, you gotta emphasize keeping grappling fresh in everyone’s mind.

If your a US Police Department, a former Infantyman in your unit can teach level one, Army Combatives. Its a diluted version of Gracie Jujitsu.

usarmycombatives.com

I believe that is the manual, completely disregard the bayonet crap… my manual even included how to build a bayonet course… it doesn’t belong in it. Its otherwise is non-lethal wrestling, chokes, holds, stances and positions. I’ve seen guys go for hours full force, not injure one another. Just like, not around computers or coffee pots.

And that’s it. Really, not much more needs to be said. Practice using sim rounds, practice grappling once a week, even if just for 2 minutes, doing a move down at the station on the mat, so your police chief is happy. Not saying drop much money.

If your black, or liberal, angry at the cops, ask a officer what pistol most cops use, buy the sim rounds and the mininum Two Bolts. They will need lots of bolts. Present it to the city council as a concerned citizen, with a copy of this thread to instruct the police chief. He will love it, guys will get trained up on it.

If you are a conservative… you’ve seen The Andy Griffin Show, you should fucking know cops aren’t supposed to be going full combat mode in residential neighborhoods. I get wanting the uoarmored vehicles and riot gear in places like Ferguson after the incident. I’ve been the victim of Black on White Racism too, at Fruitvale Station in California… if you live in San Francisco, and take Bart to the closest Walmart, you gotta get off at Fruitvale, and being White can get you called a racist and chased. A shooting happened there, white cop killed a black guy, so I and every white person had to pay for it.

But you want to move your communities away from this. This means looking out for them first. Don’t arrest them over every little thing, talk to them, explain the consequences of their actions, jail time… how this effects their employment, housing, their own children’s future, and their grandchildren. Keep a few business cards with foid pantries, homeless shelters, and job aid centers, church alliances, free help hotlines… print front and back on these business cards, jam info in. Give them out.

Full Paintball Face mask, not just a ski mask. Those red dots on his shirt sleeve, collar, and lens shows where he got shot. Looks like he was on the receiving end of a M249. How do I know? I know, too damn well… even with military training, with a machine gun, only two shots would of killed him (the final shots) and it wasn’t center mass, they shot at the left shoulder.

People panic, they are scared of these bullets, it’s good for guadging duress in a shooting situation. Having someone charge you near, expecting to be really tackled or shot by them, with painful consewuence, isn’t the same as shooting on a range at distance. Sim Rounds are wonderful for guaging where your police force actually stands. After a few magazines of practice, they should work through their PTSD and shjot to debilitate, or grapple… not kill.

Lots of scrnerios where you still gotta kill,always train for that, but this is cheaper in many ways too, snd can really venifit a community when 10, 20 guys arent dead, but rather are raising a family, sending theur kids off to community college. These stupid little color bullets, and a grappling handbook eith your basic Level One or Two instructor from the military, can get you there.

6

Sure there’s no law against not, but given the options with a naked man running at you, if you chose the gun, you don’t care about risking the naked teenager’s life. If you don’t care and went for the gun, it would be strange to go for a thigh. If you aren’t going to shoot for center mass, then you would be better off using one of other, much less likely to be deadly options. I mean a shot to the thigh may kill the kid. A shot to the knee probably would not, but now you are getting down to some under stress very accurate shooting and you could hit that knew with the heel of your foot, a baton, taze the kid, spray his face, outrun him, punch him the face and so on.

One can always expect surliness when one agrees with you but suggesting I will only be collecting money from parking meters - do any police actually do this? - is really a rather soft attack for agreeing with you this time. I’ll count my blessings.

7

Police officers doing god’s work I presume…

8

Few people have been shot at as much as me with sum rounds… like I said, I was on the receiving end, constantly for a week. If I say it us possible with my philosophers cap on, then it can definitely be looked into, and done cheaply as experiments. I was nailing guys breaking every rule on how to fire your rifle after a while, it quickly becomes second nature. Most martial arts bouts traditionally took play in close quarter duels. I see no reason why even a poorly funded police force couldn’t pull this off. Its obvious the reason so many police forces are doing this is because they haven’t gotten proper training. We have the basic technology for this now, it’s not science fiction, it’s not even expensive. Its up to people like us now to spread the message.

9

Police officers are gun toting pussies that shoot first and ask questions later.

10

Because they have even less training than you or I did.

Units that bout, have s higher chance of employing tactics successfully under stress. Onasander (not me, the original) knew this, many ancient authors around the world did till firearms.

Now, we can bout with simulated bullets that hurt. There is absolutely no reason NOT to do this. Even a five foot tall, twenty year old female should pull off shooting a hostile guy charging her within six feet, gun still bolstered, grappling (getting shot is a fantastic equalizer). Likewise stun guns, they are essentially electric razors minus the blades, just a arc of electricity… not to be used around water.

Stuff like this is super cheap, can be tested by any unit. You gotta expose the inner pussy to overcome it. Don’t be a stupid Nietzschean strutting around masculine thinking your brave, your not. You need to experience absolute duress, fear of pain and hurt and losing face… trying to pull off a non-lethal shot off under such conditions… a little time, and most everyone can do it. You can pick body parts to shoot, split second, knowing the hit isn’t going to be the worst.

Then, when situations poo up, like some guy is ten feet away, but looking with some evil intent, you can think “I will shoot him to slow him” instead of “I will shoot to kill”. If he still goes for a gun, nail him. You gave it a honest chance.

11

Yes, yes, but you see that would all be too much trouble to go through where killing individuals over legal technicalities is much more simple.

In the process institutional authorities have excuses to get rid of all the undesirables within the general population.

12

They are doing a very poor job of it if that’s the case.

13

bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35562301

These cops had a excellent excuse, the attacker was randomly attacking people with a Machette British Style, people in the diner more or less followed the advice I would give, Throw Chairs (cook should of ran screaming out with a butcher knife, but whatever)…

Guy takes off running, police chase him, guy starts leaping all over the Hood of the car with a machete.

I have only so much fucking patience. In this case, this guy isn’t going to ever have a chance of reform given his predicted prison sentence (why won’t they give me parole ever?) and you got but a second to shoot when moving out a cop car, when a known machete murderer is on your hood. Fucker is dead. I’m sorry, I can’t remedy this situation non-lethally.

14

This all seems reasonable. It seems the proper course is to evaluate what a cop should be, and whether or not the cop lived up to that, without being asked to feel pity for the crazy dope that attacked him.

15

…says it all.

16

bbc.com/news/magazine-354871 … 0509604650

Mexican police shown fleeing a scene, right before a murder took place.

They clearly have bullet proof vests on, and in terms of terrain, had a dozen ad hoc fighting positions to fall back to if it really was a issue if being out numbered, which I don’t believe. Their weapons undoubtedly had full magazines, two cops can over watch one another and more easily coordinate., and call for backup. Its called holding up. Crazy criminals do it ALL THE TIME, without bullet proof vests, guns as nice as theirs, and infinite backup.

Tactical retreat doesn’t mean jump into the truck and drive off like a bitch, it means find a better spot for a standoff.

17

To be fair it was taco tequila Tuesday which is why they left in a hurry.

18

Says the guy who shoots his own guys when they are unsuspecting.

19

That’s different. It’s business.

I also wouldn’t be going around pretending to be a protector of the community either.

20

Seems like bad business. What minion in their right mind would sign up?

See, the difference between you and me is I dont kill my minions, I use them as slaves.