post-modern language and truth

From Pauline Rosenau’s, Post-Modernism and the Social Science:

“Linguistic meaning, always personal and idiosyncratic, can never be communicated from one person to another. Language has a will and power all its own. It generates meaning quite independently of human agency or will. There are no precise meanings for words, no definitive versions of a text; in short, no simple truths. Human institutions are all predicated on ‘the lie that is the word’”

And:

“Post-modern truth is, then, necessarily fragmentary, discontinuous, and changiing. It is rhetorical and aesthetic, associated with experiencing art, and as such it is constantly reconstructed and ultimately linked to death, just as all art is destined to disappear.”

Rationalists often deconstruct post-modernists [how’s that for irony] by noting how they take linear conceptions of reality/truth and tie them into subjunctive knots. Every “knot” then becomes merely a particular context that we all interpret—and then untie and retie—in our own uniquely different ways.

And I agree with the rationalists. Or, rather, I agree with them that, all too often, post-modernists who profess to be effortlessly deconstructing our world fail to differentiate and distinguish points of view that are impeccably linear from those that can never be. In other words, there are contexts and then there are contexts. Some cannot be deconstructed because, quite simply, they refelct the objective nature of the world around us. Thus when relativists say, “we do not see the world around us the way it is but the way we are”, this does not apply to, say, the interaction of hydrogen and oxygen to form water. We can’t say, “Well, you may think water consists of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen but I think it consists of 12 parts carbon to 4 parts helium.”

So, again, it is not whether deconstruction is right or wrong…but when it is right or wrong. It is, in other words, a matter of distinguishing contexts in which it is more rather than less pertinent.

randall patrick

no, there is no distinguishing between “right” and “wrong” contexts because all contexts are equally meaningless… (that is like saying this apple is more right than that apple… an apple is an apple)

“We can’t say, “Well, you may think water consists of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen but I think it consists of 12 parts carbon to 4 parts helium.””

yes we can… the only difference is in the definitions…

the things in themselves are never found…

-Imp

No Imp, there are degrees of confusion, and a variety of ways things can come to be defined, some more arbitrary and flexible, some more necessary and concrete. You’re saying it’s all bullshit but denying that there are varying degrees of bullshit…

no, degrees of confusion only exist if you think there is some objective standard… there isn’t…

bull is bull is bull is bull…

-Imp

Ah, but I argue that within a coherentist’s epitemology, there is, for intents and purposes, an objective. Again, you over-simplify.

fine, but each individual coherentist has a slightly different interpretation of what is “objective”…

“my truth is not your truth” -Lee

“for intents and purposes” has no more weight than “because I said so” or “because god made it that way”… it still does not get to the nub of the problem, the thing in itself is never named…

are you saying that you have more truth because more people agree with your dictionary definition? that is agreement, not truth…

-Imp

Well, Heraclitus, you bake a nice cake. But when you blow out the candle, read the fucking frosting. It says that the infinite regression of deconstruction is subordinate to the existential grid you call home. A home that’s fully equipt with intents, purposes and nubs, like it or not.

:unamused:

imp what is the point of defining ‘truth’ the way you do if youll never use it or attempt to discover it? why dont you just call all the sub truths ‘truth’ and call the answer to ‘what is the universe in itself?’ the ‘super truth’. and then of course forget the super truth and use your brain for something.

it will make all threads you encounter much more interesting.

well impenitent is stuck repeating the obvious because people obviously do not want to get it. what can i say, im glad its not me who has to do it.

and future man, there is your ideal r&d bureau guy. its odd to me that when you meet one, you dont like one. how come ?

sweet… but you can’t even cross the same river once…

Heraclitus indeed… but I’ll take that as a compliment… and “objectivity” remains elusive…

-Imp

Want a criticism for Post-Modernism?
It’s just a new way of trying to propone Sense-Data.
Internal Representation of the External World.

This if wrong, in any form, no matter if you say they are visual, audio or symantic representations.

Specifically because our viewing of external reality does not change what it is but only how it appears.

I wish people could accept that there are no internal representations of the extrernal world (i.e. Sense-Data, Qualia, Post-Modernism, ‘Ideas’, etc) - It is so liberating.

Truth is an agreement

Scientific absolutes are current trends.

this is bullshit (for many of us), but think to how many
ALL of this is
those who understand have the “code” expressions
and they are great fun
and brilliantly done,
by some,
I’m thinking of one,
you know who you are,
you are very talented and entertaining…

sophist!

Just kidding, both sides of the objective/subjective debate are dynamically compelling so to as inspire a choice.

I still can’t get over this there is no debate, there are no internal representations of external objects.

Sense Datum are dead.

Hey Gamer,

Isn’t it interesting that the folks who have decided it’s all an illusion are actually on the internet and posting in a philosophy forum? :unamused:

JT

A distinction must be drawn between a “knot” which can be untied, and a “knot” which is under such tension as to defy the reasonable act of untieing.