Predestination-Determinism....

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Well I mainly wanted to discuss determinism and free will here. I as of right now don’t believe in predestination because that would effect our free will would it not?

I would rather atheist and agnostics, and whoever else has something to say idiotic and irrevelant to just leave your remarks in your head please.

So I will begin, Maybe Astral can answer these questions for me, and then again maybe not…this is very deep philosophy let me warn you.

I will begin with saying I’ve had a troubled mind for a while now on this subject. I’ve always been ‘taught’ that God knows the plan, it’s still in his hands, but somehow we have free will to decide it? Does that make any sense to anyone? If we had free will we could utterly change God’s plan could we not? And if we just fell to our destiny it would be predestination right? God knew it was going to happen and it was expected…maybe we’re not meant to know… So basically God sets forth his big plan but yet somehow we make our own choices and fall prey to our destinies?..Is that making any sense to you guys? Because it doesn’t to me.

I’m a Southern Baptist…and for southern baptist…predestination is something were not supposed to believe…but can someone make some clear sense of this for me?

Second question: I’ve been debating with myself off and on lately about free will…for those who ‘aren’t’ saved…they supposedly have a choice. But even though they have a choice, isn’t that choice effected by outside sources? And if so how is that they’re fault? Is it because of who they are that they made those choices? Or does that make them who they are?

Is everyone given an equal chance…? I guess this is just where you have to trust God. But for even some on here who don’t believe in God…maybe they just can’t…maybe that’s because of who they were created to be… Sure lucifer had his own choice…but if he had not had that personality would he have made another decision rather than to disobey God? Did God not know this was going to happen? If not than why did he even create him in the first place?

They only thing that can make logical sense to me on this subject is that… There is Free Will and God allows nothing else to affect it? But is that statement true however? If it is than it’s just…but don’t you think it’s funny…That when we’re given a choice to sin or reject sin…it’s always either “well he/she chose sin because they have a sinful nature, they aren’t perfect” and when we choose correctly…“they’re in touch with God, and they had a choice, chose wisely”

Why is it that if we have a choice…how can we not be perfect? Except for those sins such as at birth…, and the ones we aren’t aware of…but every sin we are…How can we blame that on our sinful nature?

As usually this whole thing starts getting really confusing…either because I’m missing something and making it too complicated…or I’m not supposed to know just like the thought of infinity?

I want to hear what some of you “INSIDE” the religious spectrum have to say…if you are otherwise…don’t say anything stupid.

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sigh, I’d say I’m a pretty “blunt” poster but i’m going to be as polite as possible here.

First of all. You said that you dont belive in predestination because it doesnt make sense with Free Will. So what? If something goes against your belief’s you modify the situation to your liking? WHAT?Now THAT is blind faith.

You just said you dont believe in it. For that reason alone that it doesnt make sense. Well my friend since your OWN bible preaches predestination (ever read revelations?) Doesnt that tell you your religion doenst make sense?

Revelations is a detailed depiction of how the world will end. And dont say it can be metaphorical because a God making a metaphorical bible is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Metephors = interpratiations which = opinions which = problems which = hell. According to the bible at least.

Anyway, thats predestination right there. Revelations If that isnt enough it is spoken AND in text all over the place that God knows everything. Period. Priest and Pastors commonly preach that he has a master plan.

???

Just because it goes againt your faith dont dismiss it. Ask questions. And if the answers are contradictory then reevaluate your faith. Mate.

If there is predestination (which according TO YOUR BIBLE there IS) it is not possible for there to be free will. Period. That’s the biggest contradiction in the bible.

By the way God created Satan and Satan is evil. God created Evil. Challenge me on that and you’ll get a cookie.And a first class ticket to heaven.

What pastor DOESNT preach that god knows everything, and has a master plan. All the ones i know are mindless robots that are practilly vomitting bible verses.

Sins are simply imperfections. According to the bible man is imperfect. So God is sending you to hell for not being perfect. Wow. What, a loser.

Anyway I owned the whole free will thing. And I would LOVE to see someone challenge me on God creating evil. It’s right there. God Created satan. Satan is Evil. God created Satan. Boo Yah. I win.

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raised Southern Baptist and Protestant and non denominational and now non religious/atheist. I have studied these same questions, They are a plague to the mind are they not?

Deb has an interesting view if you can hunt him down he might help you. His tapestry explaination is pretty good if you think about it. I won’t quote or go into it, he could do much better.

As for me well the two do not cancel each other out. if there is a god and this god has a plan, the plan obviously involves free will. The problem is we don’t know the plan and by our normal perspectives plans mean direct paths or choice, it certainly does not mean meandering all over the place.

The second part how can god know the outcome if we have free will is a hard pill to swallow but here again we must look at it from a different perspective. Say you have a hybrid seed. You don’t know what the plant will look like or how it will flower until you plant it and it grows. the out come is a plant, God may know that the outcome is a plant but not know what it will look like because the seed never existed before.

Now this is a simplistic and incomplete look at it and heaven knows it could be much more complicated than this, it could be much easier. Some will argue its balderdash and that is fine.

But my view is: these very good questions of yours can be answered by changing perspective and realizing that there is more then one way to skin a cat. Free will and predeterminism do not have to be at odds when the plan is to have freewill create the patterns on a tapestry, or how a new seed grows. I hope this helps.

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Club29 quote - So basically God sets forth his big plan but yet somehow we make our own choices and fall prey to our destinies?..Is that making any sense to you guys? Because it doesn’t to me.

Remember, Jesus never - ever - said to anybody “you’re going to hell”.
Rather, he used phrases like - “get your act together or you’ll be in danger of hell”, or “you’ll find it hard to avoid hell unless you get rid of your attitude problem”…
See, he urges us all to do likewise, because nothing is pre-determined or written in the stars. Our choices determine our destiny…

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For the first idiot who directly did as I asked not to, that’s not a contradiction in the bible. I’m miss understanding something and trying to get answers. Revelation is prophecy of the end, that doesn’t mean it’s predestination.

Honestly man? What the heck are you thinking when you post something stupid like this? Do you think it helps your cause? If you what you believed was really the right belief why wouldn’t you try to show me the understanding? Obviously I see some doubt in you, I think you do believe in God, your just bitter.

Kristwest, that makes alot of sense to me about the plant. I would ask well, we could change the growth of that plant and it could die before it ever matured…but then again I have to think about this more and say…that while we may die wandering into the plan…our race will eventually reach the plan. We make the prophecies come alive by using time.

It’s so awesome when you think about it, just like how revelations talks about a great increase in knowledge…and whats crazy is we’ve reached that point. This increase in knowledge, which God knows, will cause a problem in our system…that problem is power. The more power we have the more prone us fallible man are to use it. It’s basically just common sense…we will eventually hit the prophecies as God knows we will, but that my friend isn’t predestination…and I thank you for helping me see that.

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Club29 -

Funny thing about conversations, isn’t it. It’s almost as if someone else is there.

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Oh man, so many bad statements already.
#-o

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You might want to look into the debate on “open theism” that is currently a hot topic in evalgelical circles. I’m not advocating this position. But it deals directly with some of the issues you raise about determanism and free will and you might find it interesting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

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faustest

Sometimes it is a matter of etiquette, and the reason there are threads that some don’t go into, because their words have no place.

Not to mention the gentleman did request, directly, that if you weren’t going to make additions to the discourse, to keep out.

Club,

lady Kriswest is right, DEB, is an excellent source, as well as Bob. They are likely to be the most helpful with your inquiries, and certainly far more knowledgeable than I.

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But his tone was all wrong; he does it again and I will stab him in the face with a soddering iron.

                        -Christopher Walken
                              "Joe Dirt"
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Well satori I see you’re maturing, that did alot for your cause.

Thanks Ned, I’ll check it out.

Funny thing about philosophy is you can spend tons of time just telling someone something…but wouldn’t it be better to break it down and help them understand?

I always find it more interesting to listen to someone inside of some religion or belief talk…because for the ones who don’t believe in any…I really don’t understand what they’re purpose is? What are they trying to accomplish? Do they just have too much time on their hands? If they think what we believe is wrong…why are they telling us this?

I think they’re unsure about not believing…and they feel insecure, so why not join a philosophy site where I’m sure I can find someone just like me who will tell me everything will be ok…what other reason do they have but that? Somone please tell me? It’s not out of love, I know that forsure, because if they were trying to help us dumb Christians/Believers…why not use it gently and with some reasoning behind it?

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LMAO, welcome to Philosophy 101. It starts with narcissism, certainty of omnipotent reality, and just gets worse from there.

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Simply adding a bit of humor to your disdain for other thoughts. Sorry you did not find it amusing. Also, was making a point not to call people idiots, etc. as it lacks maturity within itself.

Many people all around the world have not even heard of Christianity. So, it is not their fault if you believe that you need to worship God to be saved. They have their religions which work for them. In modern times such people as the Dalai Lama, Alan Watts, D.T. Suzuki, Thom That, have strived for unification of religions. To explain although the paths may be different at some point they most likely converge.

Lucifer was created as God’s right-hand man. Assuming God is all-knowing he would “know” that Lucifer would become unbearably jealous of man. Thus he would fall from grace. This story runs very close to that of the Pandora’s Box myth in which all the world’s sufferings were released. And maybe that is the reason God would allow him to fall is to see if humanity would rise from the ruins and stand triumphant?

I am always confused as to why we are sinned at birth? But also what is sin to us is maybe rejoiced by others around the world who have not had contact with the Bible. I would say to blame sin on our animalistic nature. Certain thoughts, or actions carry creedance through our primal mind. Perhaps the challenge of religion is to struggle against the reptilian facets .

I choose this option. I figure lead a good life and hope you do it all well if there are eyes watching and hope for the best.

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What exactly are you trying to say here?

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:laughing: :laughing: You’ve been warned, thiests – this is deep

Yeah… wouldn’t want the actual philosophers to take a crack at it. Might shed some light you don’t want to hear eh.

I almost wrote up this whole post on Aquinas and Augustine, you know, the non-idiots (as they were Christian). But seeing as how you don’t want my input… I didn’t.

Maybe what I really should have wrote about was Kierkegaard :laughing:

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Don’t act like a fool, you know what I meant. For those like you just now, and you are still doing it. Glory goes to you man, you can pick at someones discussions. I never said you couldn’t take a crack at it as long as it wasn’t stupid and irrevelant.

So if you’ve got something good to say, say it. If it’s going to be something like you just posted, please leave it to yourself because it does nothing but make you look ignorant.

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At which point did I lose ya? Cause I am not sure what you mean hehe

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About us not knowing infinity. You said you choose this option to live a good life and hope for the best? What exactly are you implying when you say this?

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A muslim friend of mine described his sect’s solution to that problem thusly:

God is timeless and God is all knowing, so predestination is real. It is predestined when you will die, your wealth, your status . . . all of that is predestined.

What is not predestined is how. This is the story used to illustrate it:

A very wealthy man was leaving on a trip and he entrusted his favourite saddle with one of his servants. This was an incredibly expensive saddle, truly a singular work of art. The temptation proved too much for the servant and he went to town and sold the saddle.

Unbeknownst to the servant, the wealthy man had been planning on paying the servant the same sum of money for the saddle’s safekeeping. So, either way, the servant made the same amount of money, but one path was that of virtue and the other was sin.

Not sure if that is helpful, but I thought I’d throw it in the ring.

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Me, act like a fool? I think a foolish presumption would be to assume I knew exactly what you meant – especially over a text-based medium. Look at your OP, it’s a jumbled mess.

No, see that’s where your mistaken.

Questions I overhear from the Sunday school class like this one are what makes someone look nothing but severely sheltered and ignorant. Then again, I realize that this is a subjective truth that I subscribe to, not a universal one which I can use whenever I feel like as a disclaimer for requested input. But I digress…

Here’s what I’ve got to say.

Your get what you give.

Half of your post was arrogance and blind religious pride, the other half was actually a decent inquiry.

The result is what you now see here.