If I build a machine for a certain purpose, the purpose is achieved if the structure of the machine allows my pupose to materialize. In like manner the structures of organic and inorganic matter appear to function in ways that can be described as purposeful. Aristotle puzzled over this. Most current materialists balk at the idea of purpose because it seems to indicate a first cause, at least or a “seeing watchmaker”, a diety involved in human evolution. Can human evolution be seen as devoid of purpose without negating the human need for purpose?
That’s the big question, Ierrellus. I think our penchant for purposes can be manifest and satisfied in many ways. I also don’t think the Universe gives a rat’s ass about that, either way. As long as we realise that “purpose” is a word that humans invented and that the Universe don’t speak English, everything will be just fine.
The “purpose” of evolution is really the purposes of life - of life forms. “Evolution” is another word we invented, and it serves our purposes. Evolution itself has no purpose of its own. It’s just a quirk of language that we say it that way.
Organisms do have purposes. But these are all “particulars”. The class of all things that demonstrate purposes, is not “Purpose” itself. Nor is the class of all “purposes” Purpose itself.
Oh, yeah. Rock formations look “geometric” sometimes. But we are seeing them in a static state. These formations are the result of change, of movement. None of the lines are really straight. Or really lines, for that matter.
good insights, faust.
If the universe does not care about me, am I a beggar before its supply of my needs? Must I then go through priest, shaman, witchdoctor, whomever to discover the identies between the I and it that at least allow me to survive? Not to mention my need for self-identity, which is the outcome of a brain that produces identifying symbols.
Many choose that path. You could simply accept the circumstances and come up with your own purposes (which you have already done, I am sure) and concentrate on those. Some would call this “philosophical maturity”. Others would call it a ticket to Hell.
The Need itself might be a manifestation of a universal purpose.
There is no reason that I know of why this should be so. It might as easily be a vitamin deficiency.
If we need purpose, and at the same time, had no purpose, we would be dead.
Denied needs = death.
Whether the watchmaker is “blind”, “seeing” or somewhere in between, we definitely have needs and are going somewhere.
Even if we dualistically remove the emotion, even if we nolonger feel even a slight hint of “meaning” in our life, purpose and reason can and will still exist, whether we believe in them or not.
In the same way that a cell is a small manifestation of the whole body, a man is a small manifestation of the earth, and the earth is a small manifestation of the universe.
I’m not going to deny it. It’s plain for all to see.
Ierrellus, yesterday when I saw that you had authored this thread I read it. I read the first reply. Since then I tried to think of something to say without using words that weren’t invented by humans. I was rendered speechless; but then, I had to look up teleology. Clearly I am in over my head here. Sorry
Data
It is always, now.
Data
All things that are “handling” anything are handling them “in the moment” and are never operating in the past or the future.
Data
Only the human mind can act as if there is a future or a past.
Portent
Humans will continue to reality.
How does precognition work, then?
I’m sticking with the idea that time actually does exist.
Correction
Portent
Humans will continue to ignore reality.
Because they have a finite amount of focus which is used for the sake of what appears to be survival, instead of spreading their consciousness throughout the all, without bias or perferance.
Harbinger,
What present has shed the baggage of past? What present does not anticipate future? The eternal now is a nice oriental idea. It is, psychologically, a good place to be. It is not, however, what we actually experience. Faulkner–“Why call it past when it has not passed!” Genetics assures you of having a past in the present and of being able to look beyond the present by virtue of your moving potential. Dan is right. Our limited focus of perspective is for our survival. In “Doors of Perception” Aldous Huxley suggests that. If I could perceive the actual moving molecules that comprise the floor I walk on, I would not be able to move at all.
DEB,
Teleology is just a big word for theories of purpose. We humans are immersed in concepts of purpose for our needs for meaning and identity. The question is–why do we think purpose if it does not exist as meaningful for us?
Data
Teleology
Data
Human thought is largely dominated by the teleological.
Data
Time is a concept governed by observsation of decay, so past and present is not real.
Data
The fact that now is always now is not just an Asian concept, but rather a fact. There is no such thing as time.
Portent
Fantasy is the leading killer of man.
Harbinger,
I disagree on all fronts. Time is as evidenced by moving potential as it is by decay. Only those who see decay as negative can argue as you do. When I die, I’m fertilizer for plants. My ego does not need much more meaning than that, to be part of the moving genetic continuum. Your restatement of premises adds nothing to the discussion. You are welcome to your ideas; but please address mine with reasonable alternatives, not static formulas.
Data
Data
Teleology.
Portent
It appears that you have something to look forward to.
Harbinger,
An admission of experienced motion with its allowance of front and rear perspectives? Maybe. I’m not sure.
I’m looking for anyone here who has at least read some philosophical primary works and their secondary critiques. Why is that so hard to find in an “I love Philosophy” forum? The teleological problem still haunts us in the Darwin vs. intelligent design debates. One cannot render a more timely subject than that, at least in the U.S., where it continues to make headline news.
Would you like me to pull out some computer programs that demonstrate how random selection can give rise to complex forms?
I don’t see why one needs teleology from an evolutionary perspective to gain purpose in life, how are the two related?
And what’s the need for teleology anyway? It seems to me like it is very much a corruption of Christian thought that persists in modern thought. The Greeks and Chinese got along fine in their philosophy with a primarily cyclical time/world view.