Religious Hatred

Well, let’s take Xunzi’s argument one step at a time. I don’t agree with it completely, but I think that it lays a fine foundation.

So, first we need to know human beings and their capacity for good and bad actions. On this matter, Confucius said that, “All men are born alike. It is through repeated action that they diverge.” Couple this with the fact that neither Yao nor Shun allowed their sons to become Emperors and when Yu’s son did become Emperor and found a dynasty, the Mandate was eventually lost and the later rulers became quite base. If the descendents of a moral paragon like Yu can become evil, we clearly see that good genes are insufficient to create a good person.

So far, all we’ve established is a neutral ‘tabula rasa’ view on human nature. So, let’s see where Xunzi takes it.

First off, let’s look at the thesis: Human nature is bad, xing e. Now, much like the English word ‘bad’, ‘e’ contains both a moral and an aesthetic dimentsion. Indeed, even the radical ‘ya’ present in the character means ‘deformed’. So, while a translation of ‘Human nature is ugly’ is not precisely correct, in this case it is fair and I will explain why.
Later in the same essay that I posted an exerpt from, Xunzi says, “All men in the world, past and present, agree in defining goodness as that which is upright, reasonable, and orderly, and evil (e) as that which is prejudiced, irresponsible, and chaotic. That is the distinction between good and evil.” So, here we clearly have an aesthetic view on that which is good and that which is bad in humans.
To continue, he states," Now suppose that man’s nature was in fact intrinsically upright, reasonable and orderly – then what need would there be for sage kings and ritual principles? . . . Now let someone try doing away with the authority of the ruler, ignoring the transforming power of ritual principles, rejecting the order that comes from laws and standards, and dispening with the restrictive power of punishments (remember, zheng=zheng: To govern is to correct), and then watch and see how the people of the world treat each other. He will find that the powerful impose upon the weak and rob them, the many terrorize the few and extort from them, and in no time the whole world will be given up to chaos and mutual destruction. It is obvious from this, then, that man’s nature is evil, and that his goodness is the result of conscious activity."

As a pre-emptive reply to some of your Daoist critizisms, may I quote the following:
Those who maintain that the nature is good and praise and approve whatever has not departed from the original simplicity and naivete of the child. That is, they consider that beauty belongs to the original simplicity and naivete and goodness to the original mind in the same way that clear sight is inseparable from the eye and keen hearing from the ear. Hence, they maintain that [the nature possesses goodness] in the same way that the eye possesses clear vision or the ear keenness of hearing. Now it is the nature of man that when he is hungry he will desire satisfaction, when he is cold he will desire warmth, and when he is weary he will desire rest. This is his emotional nature. And yet a man, although he is hungry, will not dare to be the first to eat if he is in the presence of his elders, because he knows that he should yield to them, and although he is weary, he will not dare to demand rest because he knows that he shold relieve others of the burden of labour. For a son to yield to his father or a yonger brother to yield to his elder brother, for a son to relieve his father of work or a younger brother to relieve his elder brother – acts such as these are all contrary to man’s nature and run counter to his emotions. And yet they represent the way of filial piety and the proper forms enjoined by ritual principles. Hence, if men follow their emotional nature, there will be no courtesty or humility; courtesy and humility in fact run counter to man’s emotional nature. From this it is obvious then, that man’s nature is evil, and that his goodness is the result of conscious activity."

All translations from Xunzi are from Burton Watson, those from Confucius are paraphrased from memory.

Well, let’s cut to your example of the hungry man giving way to his elders. That my friend, is a judgement. An externally imposed morality. From our true nature, we would accept the knowing that preservation of our own body is paramount. Preserving ourselves is both natural and common sense. That we may share with others is our ability to be empathetic, but it is not from some external moral position that we do this, but rather from our true nature - our ‘goodness’. This is not naive or child-like, it is in full understanding of our true nature. If I were to remain child-like, I would accept those external edicts as my own- and turn away from my own true nature. Pro-scribed morality is the beginning of insincerity, and the more you attempt to ‘fix’ it the more you push yourself away from that which is our intrinsic goodness.

JT

Then that is precisely where we disagree. I believe that if one seeks to perserve one’s own body at the expense of their parents, then they are monsterous. What form of community can be based around individuals seeking the satisfaction of their own desires? To impose external morality is the way in which morality is formed. “Like bone cut, like horn polished/Like jade carved, like stone ground.”
It may be sincere of me to follow my own desires and eat my fill while my parents starve, but is this the form of sincerity we wish to cultivate? Correct action preceeds correct though, this is what is meant by, “The people can be made to follow the Way but not to understand it.” Understanding comes after, this is what is meant by the Odes when they say, “Her entracing smile dimpling/Her beautiful eyes glancing/Patterns of colour upon plain silk”
Is sincerety is the sum of morality? To be sure, one must be sincere in order to be truly moral, but sincerety alone is insufficient.

Religious hatred, like racial hatred, is a phenomenon that can be linked with what I call omega-psychology.

Within mammalian social groups a dominant male, usually, has complete access to procreative potential.
This forces all other males into subordinated or challenging positions of opportunity.

Challenging males take up waiting game, testing the resolve and energies of their dominant adversary waiting for the opportunity to take over.

All other subordinated males take on a more guileful, secretive procreative strategy or are relegated into supportive, often more feminine effeminate, social statuses.
This is usually accompanied by a drop in testosterone levels, making the males more female-like in disposition and so less threatening to the alpha-male.

This subordinate role follows a genetic logic.
The inferior males and females act on behalf of the offspring and the group with which they share genes with.
By acting in support they ensure the continuance of their own genes, indirectly.

This subordinated psychology can be seen in everything from racial identification to nationalism and even religion.

We hate that which we share the least in common with and we defend what we associate ourselves with or would like to believe about ourselves in relation to.
When an individual cannot ensure his continuance directly, he/she associates himself/herself with what represents the closest approximation of what he/she thinks of as Self or would like to believe constitutes the core of Self and so achieve immortality in this way.

Ah, the problem is that many of the faith I believe you mean, are use to subjegation and are afraid to really make a stand as it will cost them their lives and the lives of their family. Hence, the reason for the silence and they are controlled by fanatics.

Xunzian,

I think you read into my statement and missed the point. I did not suggest that one would or should preserve one’s body at the expense of their parents, although I could create a moral edict saying that, and force people to abandon their parents in favor of themselves. That is the problem with external morality. Confucianist assumptions include the notion that people need to be told how to act. I would say that people will act out of their empathetic true nature if left to their own conscience. And so, shall I sustain myself and let my parents starve? Of course not. I’ll go without as long as possible to sustain the life of my family. But not because I’m told to do so, but because it comes from my heart to do so. Life isn’t always so simple, and what is ‘moral’ in one situation fails in another. Let’s add one more simple fact in this little scenario: I have a child as well as my parents It is obvious that, of the four of us, two will die from starvation. And where is that moral precept now? Do I let my parents, who have had a full life live and sacrifice my child and myself? Do I preserve the life of my child with all its potential? Do I preserve myself in order to raise that child? Where is it cast in stone that I should do one and not the other? I would argue that I will do the best within me as this terrible experience unfolds. You promulgate a morality that says I have no alternative but to be moral or immoral and that judgement comes from proscribed actions. But the people who would judge those actions won’t die for my parents, nor for the child and myself. How I act must come from my heart or there is no sincerity and I become a slave to a morality that is imposed, not embraced from my true nature.

JT

But you see, I feel you are relying too much on the intrinsic heart-and-mind of people. You say: Be moral. Without giving a means of doing so, merely saying that by harmonizing with our instrinsic selves, morality will spring forth autochthonously.

You also place too much emphasis on the Rites within Confucianism. Confucian morals consist of a triad of the Rites, Benevolence, and Righteousness. Only one of the three is truly an ‘external’ morality; however, it can be used to cultivate the other two.

We are born with selfish desires that prevent us from forming a more perfect society. The Rites provide a mechanism whereby these desires are curbed. Though one may, at first, simply perfom them out of a sense of duty without truly understand thing (false morality), repeated practice leads to habit, habits lead to the foundation of character. This forged character is able to manifest true morality, because the Rites have become an integral part of him. In this way a Confucian achieves actionless-action, for a cultivated individual is able to do the right thing without thinking about it because they have been conditioned to do so. The Rites teach us how to be Benevolent and Righteous without overstepping the line. In this way, Benevolence and Righteousness are harmonized.

Remember, there is one thread that goes through the Master’s teachings: Reciprocity. Is it important that I feed my parents? Of course, but I feed my pets as well. Am I therefore filial towards my dog? No, that’s just plain silly. The idea behind taking care of one’s elders is the idea of deference, a virtue upon which society is based.

As to your scenario: Remember that the Rites act as a measuring stick for all we do, but to assume that they are perfect in every way and sufficient for every situation is a fallicy. So then, where the Rites are insufficient, let us look to the examples of old. We know that Robber Zhi’s solution to this problem would be to consume the flesh of the other humans with abandon. In this way, his thought is like the Will to Power, where only the most powerful survive at the expense of the weak. Clearly, this is not an acceptable solution. In the Spring and Autumn Annals, we see the Duke of Lu weakens the terrible effects of a famine through extreme frugality and sacrifice on the part of all.

In this case, frugality is clearly insufficient, so instead we must turn to Min Sun. When Min Sun’s stepmother him (a clear violation of the relationship), he father threw her out (a correct action). However, Min Sun chose rather to sacrifice his own well-being for those of his half-brothers (also a correct action).

So then it becomes the duty of the Gentleman to decide, based on these historical examples as well as their own benevolence/righteousness which course of action to take. Since deference is a primary virtue, obviously the most competent (usually the eldest, but if they suffer from dementia, clearly not) must make the decision which all will abide by. However, others may advice the eldest on their decision and should their De virtue me more manifest than the original suggestion, then clearly that is the course of action that must be taken.

Confucian ethics are much more flexible than you might think. Check out this essay: faculty.vassar.edu/brvannor/virtueethics.pdf

Relying too much? How so? Not giving a means to do so? ???

Genuine morality comes unbidden from our capacity to empathise with others. The heart-mind of people ARE the means of doing so. and yes, to be non-coercive requires allowing the participants in any experience to follow their nature. Pre-conceived definitions of morality invite coercion and becomes artificial.

It isn’t that one cannot act out Confucian morality if it is in their true nature, but to be genuine it must come from the heart, not the edicts of what is or is not ‘moral’.

JT

And that is exatically my point. You say that morality comes from the heart-and-mind, yet you do not say how. Does it spring unbidden from ourselves? Is it merely there, something that some but not all, are born with? Are we to grade humans then based on the morality that they are born with?
What I mean when I say that Daoism/Buddhism provide no path to morality, that is what I mean. Moral cripple indeed. Moral cripple indeed. What means are there for the crooked to become straight?

And you, aspacia, haven’t bothered to check the fact - the Russians alone lost more people than the Germans and Japanese put together so you are incorrect about this…

Check the figures yourself if you don’t believe me, there are any number of sources and the figures do vary a bit but the ones I’m working with clearly indicate that Russia lost about as many in military casualities as the combined military and civilian casualties of both Japan and Germany, and lost about 3 times as many in total…

But we can overlook this, it really isn’t that important…

Remember, I haven’t my library in Nevada, and I am pulling information from 1989-1991 university history classes.

I am speaking of actual combat deaths and was unclear. My apologies to the insecure one who promised never to respond to my posts again, LIAR. The one who loves to play the I win, you lose, you erred, so I look wonderful game. You are so hilariously insecure and in continual need for ego boosts that you simply appear to be pathetic.

To tentative: I will play nice with others, I will play nice with others, I will play nice with others. Damn, some others make this so difficult. I will play nice, I will play nice…Growl.

Russia lost approximately 17-20 million in World War I and World War II. Many of the deaths during WWI were because of the Revolutions (White and Red), disease and malnutrician. During WWII many of the deaths were because of disease, hypothemia, and malnutrician as well. Yes, Russia took it on the chops, while the USA and the UK sat back and watched our two least favorite individuals, Uncle Joe and Hitler, slug it out. Remember, it was the Russian winter that defeated the Nazis, not the actual battles. Many Nazis also froze, died of disease or starved to death as well.

LOL, remember, during war the figures hugely vary from text to text. While reseaching regarding Midway, the numbers were so varied I had to initially stimpulate this before turning in the essay.

So why mention it? Again, I was unclear and said so, as I am here to lean, am human and do err, but so do you. At least be flexible and mature enough to admit it when you do.

I am still waiting for a poster on another thread to convince me that we need to be more understanding regarding pedophiles. :evilfun: I say lock “em” up and throw away the key to prevent them from further victimizing another child. :evilfun:

Without regard nor respect,

aspacia

i.e. making stuff up on the spot,

The Germans and Japanese lost less than half what the Russians did in terms of combat deaths, so you are still incorrect (you could just admit it, rather than backtracking and sidestepping)

I never said this, I said that I wouldn’t answer any more of your posts on the Dalai Lama thread argument…

No, I simply enjoy being accurate. You are incorrect, I pointed this out, you’ve responded with aggression, insults and accusations of lies. Who do you really think looks pathetic?

I never insulted you, I simply corrected you on a point. Your response was to insult me. That’s twice that you’ve turned a difference of view into a personal battle against me. A third time and I will be suggesting a ban…

Do you mean combat deaths or total deaths?

You are still incorrect, the Allies lost more people than the Germans and Japanese…

All such historical stats are estimates, and by the best estimates that we have you are incorrect, the Allies lost more people

You weren’t only unclear, you were also incorrect. Regardless of whether you mean combat deaths or total deaths, the Allies lost more people…

Why mention it? To demonstrate that you are out of control, that you can’t even take someone (well, me) contradicting you on an issue of historical fact (not opinion, not speculation - accepted fact) without attacking me personally. Like I say, that’s twice recently that you’ve deliberately turned a disagreement into a personal battle. If you persist with this then, like I’ve said, I have no choice but to request a ban.

I’d appreciate it if folks would read the posting guidelines to Social Sciences. There is a reference to playing nice. Please observe this

JT

Hi Xunzian,

I understand your concern but I will maintain that human nature is good, and left to conscience, will express benevolent behavior. I know that you see the opposite. I also understand that both the analects and other Confucian texts express concern that there must be genuine heart-mind understanding if the proscribed path is to be efficatious. I think that the Taoist concern was proven out in the Confucian ideals being turned into a state religion where the vast majority observed the edicts - but only through coercion of the social structure in place. It isn’t any different than occurs in any religion. Some catch the spirit of the ideals, others simply go through the motions.

If there is any real difference, it is that Confucianism promotes an external socially imposed order, and the Taoist is, at heart, an anarchist. :wink: Both have their strengths and weaknesses at the societal level. Ultimately, I’m convinced that a benevolent society must come from the spontaneous empathetic nature of the individual, and that any and all systems of social order must finally rely on coercion to be effective.

This issue has long been a psycho-social debate: Does the society form the individual or does the individual form society? Either, neither, or both? Anyway, it depends on our individual focal point and makes for interesting discussion, does it not? :smiley:

JT

:smiley:

Always a pleasure reaching a point of knowledgable disagreement with you.

Besides, at heart, I’m a raging Statist, which is why we both go in such opposite directions.

And anyway, even if they were merely going through the motions, it lead to the most stable and long-lasting society the world has ever seen. That’s no mean feat, even if it was coupled with crippling stagnation in the technological realm.

Also, I’m not as extreme as my namesake on man’s nature. Well-intentioned, but stupid is a better explanation for my feelings. Education provides a means for rectifying that last condition, because without it myopic selfish desires take over.