Right Wing is Anti-Philosophy

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That’s a good reminder, Just a few tidbits of The Republic remain in active memory. However, just as a flaw, a tiny snowball of fungus or a scratch, in a camera lens (at least, front / middle section) only affects the final image in a very abstract way - never 1:1, i.e. you never see the flaw itself in the final image - so too would the Philosophrer-King arise from the centrist left indirectly, hence l wrote:

I don’t shy from using LOTR, despite its obvious geopolitical biases (the West / Romanesque world, Rome being Gondor vs. the Scythian Wainriders, Near Eastern Harad, & Viking Variags, Variag being their actual name in Russia, also the name of a Russian pistol).

Aristotle is a good objection, l don’t know much about him. I found him too complex tbh and have yet to study him in a real sense. I would however, tentatively suggest that, politics and philosophy are more or less on the same plane. Hence, what l said about the Philosopher-King being an abstraction of politics (centre left to be precise), doesn’t apply when politicising a philosopher. Philosopher-King would be a departure from politics. Aristotle’s view could be directly compatible with right wing, you might say, seeing as they’re broadly on the same plane. Thing is, as you say, Left and RIght emerged much later. I thought it was early 1800s but you say French Revolution. In fact, L & R emerging post fact is my same argument against the other forum user trying to link R to the Founding Fathers, so l’m not ad hoc-ing to circumvent you and entrench myself … I’d already said it to him a few days ago. Still, l’d be interested to know why you consider Aristotle to be Right Wing, it’d save me a lot of reading.

Sauron is a tyrant and he seems a direct match for the Islamic “Dajjal” (antichirst). The Dajjal will have one injured eye that is like “a floating grape”. Sauron settled in Mordor, which broadly resembles Turkey or Persia in the layout of its mountains (Islam teaches Dajjal will emerge as a ruler in Persia).So yes, he is the ultimate tyrant. Among the first to join him will be religious scholars and according to the Bible (Daniel? Revelation?) he has something to do with “Rome” i.e. the militarised, industrial edifice - Saruman is all that. Interesting about Gollum being Sauron’s soul, l always thought of him as a petty heroin addict, he sure looks like it (especially Ralph Bakshi’s cartoon, you see folk like that in Stoke-on-Trent) but maybe that’s what Sauron is at heart, someone dependent on power.

By Champagne Socialism l mean centre left. I also find it a homely term despite it being disparaging (“Tory” and “Whig” were originally pejorative terms). This quasi-socialism as you describe, seems to be a launchpad for the next stage: the Philosopher-King, who is not a mere equal. I was also trying to play into the fun-loving long haired Cavalier tradition, but l now understand the Cavaliers were actually the ancestors of Tories. I’m also aware that if anybody thinks “Royalist” they think Tory, right wing, NOT socialist. This is a major sticking point and it could break my theory. But at least the Cavaliers were knightly (hence the name right?) and carefree, so a bit hippyish when put like that, thus left wing can be tenuously linked to monarchy.

That’s good stuff. I like to say “Whoever wants to rule is ruled by wants” and that applies to Plato’s Tyrant. Tom Bombadil as steward of created order is a good summary, l wonder: why can’t he be Philosopher King? He’d certainly be more left than right. He also has something of the cavalier in him that l was looking for.

The Rings to me are Lusts, vices. These arise from materialism, the finite world. In the light of infinity, vices are instantly blown away by the sheer infinite light, like (pardon me) silhouttes before a nuke.

The Philosopher-King has to be aligned with the infinite and that’d be Tom Bombadil if anybody. Aragorn as virtuous reluctant king embodies what Islamic prophecies foretell about a character that will be forerunner for Christ’s return. I know the cartoon isn’t the book but the cartoon by Ralph Bakshi casts Aragorn as being brown, implying some sort of Hebew / Roman / Mediterranean origin. Maybe he was being cast as Christ even in the cartoon. I still think Tom Bombadil could embody the noble virtue of humility, which is somewhere between patience and justice. Tom Bombadil would never have wanted to rule. In fact l don’t know anything that could force him to rule.

  • It’d be interesting to know more about Aristotle as Conservative / Right Wing
  • And what poltiical tradition do you think the Philosopher-King would arise from?
  • Do you think the Philsopher-King has to be educated like King Charles III (no pun on Cavaliers’ King Charles)? Somebody on the outside but with Royal Blood, like Aragorn? Or could he be a natural, like Tom Bombadil?
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Aragorn is a direct descendant of the Númenóreans, the noble island-folk of Tolkien’s legendarium. This heritage underscores Aragorn’s “Philosopher-King” qualities: exceptional lifespan (210 years), wisdom, and healing hands reflect diluted Númenórean gifts, tying into our thread’s anti-materialist ideal and restoring stewardship against Ring-like tech tyrannies.

Aristotle’s political philosophy aligns with conservative or right-wing principles through his emphasis on hierarchy, tradition, and organic social order, contrasting Plato’s more idealistic blueprints. But like Aragorn’s Númenórean lineage affirming rightful kingship, Aristotle grounds authority in nature and virtue, scorning materialist tyrannies (tech-bros’ Rings) for stewardship, which is right-leaning in its anti-egalitarian realism.

The Philosopher-King, as Plato envisioned, would most naturally arise from a tradition of aristocratic republicanism, which stems from anti-democratic scepticism: rulers must be rigorously trained philosophers grasping eternal truths, emerging organically from a hierarchical society where virtue trumps popular will. This aligns closest with Confucian meritocracy in ancient China—scholar-officials selected via exams for moral wisdom—or Stoic-influenced Roman ideals of the virtuous senator, prioritizing reason over factionalism.

In context, it echoes Aristotle’s polity (mixed constitution with virtuous elites) and Tolkien’s Aragorn as Númenórean heir: inherited nobility tested by trials, restoring order against materialist decay.

Plato’s Philosopher-King requires rigorous, lifelong education to grasp eternal Forms, and fittingly, Aragorn embodies the “royal blood” model: Númenórean descent grants longevity and wisdom, but exile as Strider tests it through humble service, mirroring Plato’s virtue-proven guardian. It is only vaguely comparable to Charles III’s broad tutelage in history and duty, it’s cultivated nobility, remaining outside power until proven, if that is, indeed, the case.

Tom Bombadil, by comparison, represents raw, untaught mastery: immune to the Ring, rooted in ancient nature-lore, he rules his domain effortlessly without ambition. Perhaps more an Aristotelian sage or Platonic “noble savage” combining innate harmony with reality, bypassing formal education but lacking scalability for kingdoms. Very “otherworldly”!

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@Bob

A rare time we actually agree on something.

Plato is one of my favorites of the ancient philosophers. For me his philosopher king is the highest political ideal for one to reach in life.

In many ways Confucius is the far east western equivalent of Marcus Aurelius. Although in many ways Confucius is the best of the moral philosophers in my humble opinion.

:clown_face:

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Thanks for that.

I think KCIII is very well educated, and he’s surely been tested with fire. I’m guessing other nations would forward their own as contenders for Philosopher-King. I’m not merely flagwaving though, l found QE2 irrelevant for what it’s worth. Btw I’ve never understood why philosophy is not a core curriculum subject these days, this restricts our pallette for Philosopher-Kings.

As for Tom Bombadil, l think it’s true, he’s too out of it. He’s old as the hills and it’d be clashy to have him do different roles. He’s either nature spirit, or temporal ruler, but not both.

Chapter 18 of the Qur’an gives me a lot of ideas. It has 3 major stories, 2 of which were in response to questions from Jewish Rabbis:

  1. TYRANTS: The story of some youths (“the People of the Cave and the Inscription”) who fled for refuge to a cave with their dog to guard the entrance. They slept for something like 300 solar / 309 lunar years. The point is, these first 10 verses are believed to be a protection against the Antichrist, the greatest test in human history, the worst tyrant. Also, the Sleepers themselves are thought to be the Sleepers of Ephesus, Christian youths who fled the cruel Roman Emperor Trajan Decius. The Decian persecution was an 18 month tyranny. The trial of the Antichrist will last something like 14-15 months but time will probably flow in strange ways (according to ahadith).

  2. PROPHET-KING & GREEN MAN as VIZIER: The story of Moses (peace be upon him) & Khizr. Moses was a Philosopher-King, specifically a Prophet that ruled as King. Khizr acted as a vizier of sorts, i.e. he was Moses’s teacher during a short journey they undertook. Khizr told Moses not to question his acts. During that journey, Khizr did quesionable things e.g. he killed a boy whose parents were good for no apparent reason, he scuttled a boat belonging to decent folk, and he repaired a wall belonging to some cruel people. Moses objected each time and by the end of it, Khizr left him but first explained his actions. Khizr means “Green” and Al Khizr / Khidr is known as The Teacher of Arabia. Numberous legends sprang up about him, e.g. wherever he treads, patches of green flora appear. Sufis wear green turbans in honour of him, he is said to be the initiator of Sufis into secret lore. He is the Green Man of the Celts. He is said to be Elijah (Ilyas, peace be upon him) by some, and St. George. The feast day of Ilyas and Khizr (Hidrellez) falls on wildly varying spring dates but in Turkey it is 23 April of the Julian calender, with St. George’s day being 23 April of the Gregorian. (There’s a beautiful Serbian gypsy song about this day). Elijah is the perennial youthful hero who rescues a damsel in distress. Al Khizr is said to not be dead yet, though he may be the man “brimming with youth” that will be sawn in half by the antichrist then re-assembled and told to testify that the antichrist is God but will instead testify that the antichrist is a liar and thus will be thrown into a fire (actually a pleasant garden), he will die then and be the greatest martyr of all. A lengthy account here: Sunan Ibn Majah 4075 - Tribulations - كتاب الفتن - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

  3. THE PHILOSOPHER KING vs. ORCS: The story Zul Qarnain (the Two Horned One). He was a Philosopher-King, the archetype of them all, short of being a prophet. His identity is mysterious but it’s a major faux pas to say he’s Alexander of Macedon, Cyrus, Darius, Cambyses etc. Along with Moses, people depicted these kings as having horns but none of them were Zul Qarnain. He is said to have been one of the 4 kings who ruled the entire human world, 2 were good (Zul Qarnain, King Solomon, peace be upon him) and 2 were evil (Nimrod and Bakt an Nasr / Nebuchadnezzar). Zul Qarnain must have been the very first. He travelled west, then east, then north. In the north, he found people whose language was barely intelligible (probably speaking a Japhetic language e.g. Turkic). They complained that Gog and Magog (Turks descended from Japheth) were causing chaos. So, with their assistance, Zul Qarnain built a wall between two mountains made of iron with molten copper poured over it (think Iron Curtain of the Cold War; the mediaeval Catalan Atlas confuses the matter by having Alexander the Great and a two-horned Satan working together, whereas the Two Horned One was one person - and neither Alexander nor Satan!), and when Christ (peace be upon him) returns and kills the Antichrist, then Gog and Magog will escape the barrier and make huge carnage but they will eventually be killed via Christ’s prayer. I think Gog and Magog are the Orcs, Trolls & Goblins of LOTR, going by some descriptions in hadith literature. They are humans from Japheth, peace be upon him (just as Orcs were derived from elves in the Tolkien mythos) but l think they mixed with nature spirits and so had a monstrous appearance. They are probably like Sasquatch and dwarves, some very tall and covered in red hair like Chewbacca, some as wide as they are tall. It’s worth noting that the notorious “Sierra Sounds” recording has the Bigfoots talking in a Turkic-sounding language (it’s creepy that someone pointed out you can hear one saying "I’m dyyying!" as if trying to speak human to the human campers, because that’s what humans tend to say when he eats 'em!).

TL;DR version: It’s interesting (to me) to see so many Tolkien like characters in this, between 2 poles: The Philosopher-King / Prophet-King (Aragorn), and the Tyrant / One Eyed Antichrist (Sauron). In between are orcs, goblins, trolls (Gog & Magog), men and a nature spirit called The Green One / Green Man (Tom Bombadil).

Anyway: Two questions @Bob:

  1. You say Plato’s Philosopher-King is an exponent of aristocratic republicanism, but l thought aristocratic & republican were mutually exclusive? Did you mean Aristotelian Republicanism? From what l could tell, Aristotle was tutor to Alexander of Macedon, so l’d say that’s against Republicanism. Moreover he wrote a treatise on the Soul - De Anima - which makes him anti-materialist, surely? After all, he was the glue of mediaeval Christian thought (from snippets l’ve heard). Golden Age Muslims made a big deal of him in the light of Neoplatonism too.

  2. From what you say, I think Aragorn would be the Philosopher-King, do you agree?