Science must destroy religion

For years now a louder and louder call is being bellowed by the worlds most highly regarded intellectuals. That is, that religion is the enemy, we must deal with this ever growing threat if we are going to advance as a civilization. Sam Harris has studied all religions for over 20 years, and is regarded as one of the foremost authorities in the feild. If any of you have not heard of the Edge foundation I think many would find it a great site since there will be many philosophers and other intellectuals who contribute on the site regularly whom many of you probably follow, or at least are familiar with their work. This is Sam Harris’s answer to the 2006 Edge question.

I personally think religion is one of the most dangerous phenomena that plagues our society, but alas I have not studied theology, and religious cultures intensly for 20 years, so some think I am unqualified to comment. Well heres someone who is more then qualified. His latest book is the “End of Faith” I suggest it to anyone interested in the repercussions of religious faith in the 21st century.

For those that don’t know what The Edge Foundation is
http://www.edge.org

http://www.edge.org/questioncenter.html

Quick blurb in case any of you on’t know who Sam Harris is.

And this is his response the the edge question proposed by Steven Pinker for 2006.

just because one is qualified does not mean they are right, fallacy of Argumentum ad Verecundiam.

I picked Sam as a representitive of a movement. OF course since someone is qualified does not mean they are right, but usually before I seriously consider an arguement, especially if it is scientific, I wish to know why I am taking the time out of my life to listen to this persons view. I do not listen to my mother about the way to formulate a quantum theory of gravity, I read books by Penrose, and Smolin. Its simply good common sense to listen to experts in the field, and then formulate your own opinion. I have a strong affinity for Dennett’s opinions on intentionality, but I felt it necessary to listen to Searl’s arguements as well. From what I knew I was fairly sure that I would not agree with much of Searl, but I gave him his due course because people have said “Look this guy is a professional, and what he is saying is important”. Nevermind right, or wrong for a moment, when the parties are informed usually hearing from both sides can give you insight regardless of your views.

Again I picked Sam as a representitive of a movement. Its not pretty for the religious in academia these days.

Rounder - doesn’t all this presume that there are no religious scientists? Does it not also focus exclusively on the rational, and ignore the social functions of religion? Or do I mistake the context of these remarks? I am all for the death of religion within the world of philosophy. But the herd will always be the herd. What of the psychological causes and effects of religion? I mean, what’s next? Take away sex, drugs, and rock’n’roll? What is left?

I agree the world would be a better place without religion, but it would take time. Religion cannot suddenly cease to exist!. It would take hundreds even thousands of years to eradicate religion completely.

Even then there would be something to take its place.

That’s the thing, phil. Something would take its place, and its psycho-social function would likely be the same as religion. I suspect that this is a battle not worth fighting. Because we do make progress, anyway. I think all this is a bit o’ politics.

Presume there are no religious sceintists? No not really, even though the large majority aren’t religious, I’ve read a few studies recently on just that topic.

As for the social functions of religion… you have to realise that that was a short quote from Harris, to look at the social implications of the ‘death of religion’ I would point you in the direction of Dennett’s “Breaking the Spell”, and also Harris’s “End of Faith”, but seriously Dennett really tackles the social implications well.

As for the psychological causes and effects of religion there have been many studies recently. As I said I think you can definetly see this as a major movement, but empirically studying religion is quite new, one of the most recent studies is a study on prayer. They found that prayer had no effect on patients who had suffered a stroke whatsover. This was an extensive study and if you want I’ll find you some articles relating to it. It actually showed that people prayed for tended to do a little worse, researchers hypothesized that this might be to do the depressing thought “I’m that bad off that they have to pray for me ??”.

Take away sex, drugs, rock and roll? I think these are two different things here. A little pot never made anyone bomb an abortion clinic, a little crack mayhap, so now we are in the realm of what is socially acceptable, my opinion Pot :smiley: crack [-X anyways… Think of it this way, it took decades for the Copernician revolution to turn medieval views of a Sun centered universe around, Galileo got his ass imprisoned, Bruno got his ass burned at the stake. Now these people were advocating a coherent rational view of the world, and were labelled heretics. Its just insane. It took time, but eventually the church (instead of burning people at the stake) had to accept science fact or look absurd. Now we are at the last frontier science has pushed religion back further and further, now we’re finally gonna have to take on the big guy. Nietzsche once declared God was dead… well he was wrong, he’s very alive in the majority of the worlds view… and we gotta kill him :evilfun:

I’ll be honest in that I don’t have that much time to spend in discussion on ILP, I do have time for the odd comment on what I think is important. I think these views need to be heard. Regardless of your position there are a lot of very respectable people in the world right now advocating the view that religion is extremly dangerous. My intent here is just to point to a couple of them, consider this recent speach given by mayor Bloomberg just recently at the John Hopkins university… I was incredibly surprised at the mayor of New York being so Frank

Anyways I don’t have time to debate endlessly, just trying to point to a couple of candle’s in the dark… peace

I am sure I speak for all in thanking you for what little time you could spare. Good luck with the campaign. Just remember, once in a while you will run into someone who disagrees with you.

You want science to replace religion and philosophy?

“Science only has power over that which is already dead.”
– Max Scheler

Religion and philosophy will exist until science can answer the question why humans exist in this world.

pang - you must be correct - they will last at least that long.

Maybe even longer
If we get careless…

Krossie :stuck_out_tongue:

Woahhhh Wait a minute. I never said anything about replacing philosophy. Philosophy will always remain. Consider semantics, Logic, Free will( which is completely distinct from any determinism/non-deterministic arguements), ethics, belief attribution, intentionality… etc etc… No philosophy will always remain. A large part of philosophy is needed to interpret the science as well. Consider Popper, Dennett, Fodor, Quine, Searl, Davidson, Putnam, pretty much most modern day philosophers interpret science, they may not agree, but they all think its important for philosophy to incorporate science. Hell I’ve always advocated meme theory as something that should be taken seriously, but I never really thought it could be made a science. I’ve gotten a lot of flack for that, and now recently because of Mirror Neurons being discovered Memes are all the rage, many scientists are talking about Memes, and some philosophers most notably Dennett, are sitting back and thinking satisfying I told you so thoughts. So now that science has found the seat of the Meme how are we to interpret this? I think this has a huge impact on philosophy, and I think a large part of philosophy is interpreting the science, What are the consequences, what does it mean??

As for people disagreeing with me, yeah well no shit. But hey “I told you so about the Memes” [-X and I’m telling you now about religion. Disagree with me all you want, but these people should be heard, you listen to them about free will, the mind body problem, ethics…etc… You should listen to them about religion.

lets get back to the meat of the thread guys…

Since the religious fundies are you enemy, dont you think you should work out the differences amonst yourself first?

I mean lately science has been the result of most of the suffering in the US for the past 50 years!

Are you going to kill off all the fundies, so that it will leave only the Science fundies?

What is the difference between a Science Fundie and a Religious Fundie?

Nothing! Both will use the tenets of their fundieness and lie to kill the enemy!

Science and Religion are fine and do not contradict each other! Only the theories that mankind comes up with are the contradictory elements!

I keep hearing about memes on ILP, but wikipedia’s article in point, I don’t see how the concept is either very new or very ethically useful. How can ethics or knowledge improve if bad thoughts can be spread as well as good thoughts…unless there is discernment as well, which I’m not sure is meme-theory-compatible; the theory sounds like a materialist, quantitative take on normal learning reactions.

Man produces things by imitation. That’s a classical observation. Possibly not worth putting the monkeys through the suffering in order to empiricise it.

But Rounder might inform me how I don’t understand the full elegence of this mode of thought.

Religion is dangerous in the hands of humans. But then again, so are a lot of other things…

science (thanks for the nuclear weapons fellas)
sharp sticks
scissors
fire

Just because religion is misused, or used poorly, doesn’t mean we ought to condemn it or get rid of it. Its the people that make it dangerous, not religion itself.

Anything can be dangerous in human hands, even, gasp philosophy, should we get rid of that too?

cheers,
gemty

Thank fuck for that

  • can we keep our sage status?
    beards n shit
    white coats
    ok
    beards
    it’s even got ritual
    but … our … beards
    tink you’ve got your goal
    almost
    if we stick to our script
    don’t make too much metaphysics
    feel the science breeze
    bend with it
    beards
    but we get to keep our status
    our status god damn it
    our … our beards…
    NO
    ok
    deal off

Krossie

You wont succeed in doing that , ever . Better to Accept and move on

.

Ethics and knowledge improve when our models of them reflect actuality. IS discernment compatible? OF course discernment is compatible. The method if discernment for memes is the same method for genes, and thats natural selection. Classical observations with far reaching implications have been the keys to many revolutions. Apple falling from a tree, The thought of one falling in an elevator… The complexity of meme theory may be found here

http://www.jom-emit.org/index.html

As for me providing you with the “Full elegance of the theory”, I don’t deal in aphorisms friend, and I don’t feel the need to write a book when so many already have. Susan Blackmore’s “meme machine” would be a start, In the end of Dennetts “Breaking the Spell”, he lays out his meme theory as it stands today. Also in C.E he deals with it in depth.

You can understand memes the same way you understand any replicator, and thats basically lifes datum “Replicate!!”. Its all about fidelity, fecundity, and longevity… set that theme running for 4 billion years and well you wind up with some serious complexity. As for our view of the mind it has some serious philisophical implications, Such as individuality, free will, and the like. Hey As Dennett said when he first introduced it in his conceptual framework… “I don’t like the idea of my brain being the host for other peoples ideas”, Well I’m not particularly fond of it myself, but hey thats life deal with it… or create some convulated mythology and try to escape. My way, I say deal the cards jack, I usually end up with all the chips regardless :wink:

This might get you started heres a link to a couple of articles by V.S. Ramachandran on mirror neurons.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran/ramachandran_p1.html

[u]http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramachandran06/ramachandran06_index.html[/u]

As i see it the problem with religion is that it is fundamentally immutable. In all aspects of thinking i believe this to be wrong… We should strive to be as free thinking as possible… Adaptability… religion robs us of that…

The only thing we could possibly find in religion, and only religion, is a haven from the fear of death. Which by all means is a powerful motivation to seek “spirituality”… Religious rituals and practices often serve to make the "faith"seem more real and present… rather than have it feel like some delusion in ur own head (which it basically is)…

Personally I consider all members of all religions to be psychologically “weak” individuals… And i’m all for killing it off…

I vote we all become instrumentalists, like myself… :evilfun: