Secular Soul

The religious concept of a ‘soul’, the atomic spark of personhood (‘atomic’ in the sense of being a single whole, not composed of parts), is incoherent in most secular/scientist descriptions of the world. In those paradigms, the mind is not atomic, but a composition of parts that bear some relationship to the distinguishable lobes and hemispheres of the brain, which are further composted of their constituent neurons and the connections between them. Changes to the brain can change a person arbitrarily, leaving no room for the ghostly spirit the soul traditionally describes.

But the concept of a soul is still intuitive: we tend to think of ourselves and others as constant in the way that a soul is constant. When a relative suffers a brain injury that changes their behavior, it’s awkward to talk of the event in terms of the death of one person and their replacement by another. Rather, we intuitively see a continuity of ‘soul’. Even a person reduced to a vegetative state, so that nothing of the personality that defined our intuitive understanding of their soul remains, is treated as a continuation of the same ‘soul’.

There are limits, though. If a brain tumor changes a person’s behavior, we may not assign the full legal or moral consequences of their actions to the person. Similarly, we sometimes excuse certain misdeeds done under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And we sometimes allow those in vegetative states to die, when we are confident that the state is permanent.

The limits are also seen at the beginning of life. A newborn is typically considered a moral patient to the same degree as an adult, but a fetus is not. Some religious people think the atomic soul attaches at fertilization, others that it attaches on a child’s first breath. A secular person will tend towards the latter. In a materialist sense, a child’s brain is not very much like an adult’s neither in structure or content, and personhood does not begin to emerge for some time after birth. But the intuitive soul seems clearly there from birth.

These paradigms are hard to keep straight, but they have significant consequences. The animal rights movement, parts of which place significant weight on e.g. the lives of shrimp, are invoking the intuition of soul. Even vanilla utilitarianism quietly assumes a ‘soul’, because utility must be experienced by someone – by intuitive souls. That is not a dig against these moral systems, but in my experience their advocates reject that framing, though without a better explanation of what exactly replaces the intuitive soul.

It seems the concept of a soul is hard-wired in humans, which both makes sense for how it helps us to navigate social interactions, and suggests that secularism/scientism would do well to make peace with the idea. These traditions do a reasonable job of rejecting religious understandings of soul insofar as they reject dualism, but they do less well at explaining how to employ the intuitive concept of soul that remains.

lol anyway

Didn’t you mean to say that the soul is atomic in the sense of being a single whole, not composed of parts?

Yes, thanks. Corrected.

I have a sense of myself as a single whole not composed of parts. Don’t you? That’s true for me despite whatever, secular scientists say about my neuroanatomy. Isn’t it true for you? If so, the question is, what is the relation of self to soul? Couldn’t the soul just be the subjective sense of self as a unified whole imagined to be an entity?

Curious. Which “part” is doing the imagining?

Why must there be a part?

Brentano did not conceive them as actual parts, but merely conceptual. Don’t ask me what that means. He referred to them as div-somethings, at first.

Hold on. I’ll just take these pictures:





Right. I (consciousness) am a singularity without parts. Whatever I have, is not me. I have a body , but that’s not me. I have a mind, but that’s not me either. If by “soul” we mean my conscious self then without a doubt I am a soul. But then I don’t have one.

What does it mean to be self-possessed?

Why does have and am not mean the same thing when it comes to the self?

having is owning

identifying

grasping

It doesn’t make a new thing.

‘Self possessed’ is usually the way one describes how another seems. I’ve never heard anyone claim to be self possessed nor have I claimed it for myself.

If ‘have’ and ‘am’ mean the same thing then why didn’t Descartes say “I think therefore I have?” There must be a centered self to have anything.

I agree that having is owning. The self is the owner not the owned.

I have a body. I am not the body. I have a mind. I am not the mind.

The body changes. The mind changes. I, who am the light of consciousness at the center of my world, don’t change.

The soul is the self imagined as a thing—a portable entity that perhaps survives death travels to heaven or hell etc.

Why do you think I is different from (has) mind like it has (and is different from) body (or does body “have” mind?)? What is it that has (and is different from) mind/body?

If you lose consciousness, and regain it, gradually… how can you say consciousness never changes?

We’ve discussed something similar before, and while my subjective experience of consciousness is plural, my concept of ‘soul’ points to something more like the “consensus” I described in that thread, i.e. the quasi-unified result of the consensus-making between the parts that compose my mind.

As you point out in that thread:

That ‘I’ seems to be what people mean by ‘soul’. I am one body, so whatever plurality exists behind the scenes that leads me to act as I do, my acts are ultimately unitary. The pattern in those acts is certainly my ‘self’ as far as other people are concerned; my internal experience of myself is understandably more complicated.

But then when someone experiences a traumatic brain injury that changes their behavior, are they a different soul or the same soul?

The way I see the word used, that is the same soul. From the outside, people perceive them as continuous, and slowly update their mental models of the “pattern of acts” that defines a soul from the outside. And maybe that’s right, because even significant trauma will preserve some parts of the previous pattern. But I it does not seem the same consciousness, it’s certainly not the same mind. If the soul is the pattern of unitary acts, it is continuous even as the pattern changes.

Perhaps tangential: how are ‘soul’ and ‘person’ different?

Because cognitions appear in consciousness which we refer to as ‘I’.

‘Losses of consciousness’ always appear in consciousness either as a lapse in time or as reported by others. If they didn’t how would we be conscious of them? In any case, consciousness itself doesn’t change, its contents do.

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Yes, except when we imagine self as soul in many contexts, we often objectify it e.g. the immortal soul, the disembodied soul. “I” actually refers to first hand experience always encompasses everything and is never encompassed by anything. Even the terms ‘I’ and ‘self’ objectify subjectivity less obviously. Perhaps that is why the Buddha rejected them.

I don’t know what that’s like from first hand experience. Neurologist Jill Bolte Taylor describes her experience of a cerebral vascular accident as liberating. From a third party perspective all such experience are communicated to us through the body of the brain injured self. So we can only infer what it might be like.

A person has characteristics whereas I the experiencer don’t. If the soul isn’t I the experiencer, than I don’t know what it is and it’s irrelevant to me.

Soul as experienced from the inside and soul as observed from the outside are different, though. Even if I weren’t able to objectify my own first-hand experience (more on that in a moment), I can easily objectify the souls of others. To say otherwise seems to shade into solipsism.

I’d actually argue that the intuitive notion of soul is fundamentally about others, and precedes (both in the development of our species and the development of individuals) our application of the concept to ourselves. We have an intuition of soul because it helped our ancestors navigate the world, to predict behavior of a certain class of objects in our environment. Self-awareness is rare in animals (if it can truly be said to exist in the relevant sense in non-human animals), but many animals and very young humans are aware of the other, and humans make distinctions between humans and other animals long before they display self-awareness.

So we can’t really describe ourselves as having that intuitive soul without objectifying ourselves. That’s not to say we can’t elaborate what we mean by that intuition once we notice that it applies to us, but saying that it can’t be objectified when it arose by reference to objects and applied first to ourselves as objects.

I’m not sure what this means. For example: I the experiencer speak English. That seems to be a characteristic of my experiencing, because it determines my very experience of sound.

I think I can see the way in which I am missing the point of what you’re saying, but when I try to eliminate characteristics of that sort, it feels like there’s nothing left of the experiencer.

Right. English appears in consciousness as it is spoken bodily or thought mentally. The body is changing continuously, but the consciousness which illumines it remains the same.

Not only the body is continuously changing, so is the mind. What is called “ the stream of consciousness” is really a stream of thoughts and images—mind-stuff.

Furthermore, states like waking, dreaming and sleeping are coming and going and the I associated with each state is coming and going. I think David Hume was right when he observed that what we usually call the self is a bundle of constantly changing perceptions, but that really we never directly experience the self.

The self is the experiencer that is never experienced. It is the consciousness that encompasses everything. From this point of view, identifying the self with mind or body is a mental mistake.

Perhaps, this existential fact, that the self is the experiencer that can be inferred but never directly experienced, is what makes it so mysterious that it warrants another name—the soul and the belief that, since it not physical or even mental, it may be immortal.

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