Self-Interest, Selfishness, Altruism

For the purposes of this thread only, I am going to propose a few rigid definitions. I am not proposing these definitions in the hopes of getting into a Semantics argument, but rather so that I can use these terms to express my ideas and everyone can know exactly what I mean by these terms:

Selfish Acts:

Acts which, by definition, are designed only to fulfill the needs or wants of the individual. In order to qualify as a selfish act; the needs or wants of the individual may be the only motivator for commiting the act, but that does not necessarily mean that others cannot be benefitted as an unintended consequence.

Unintended Consequence:

An Unintended Consequence is simply a consequence of an action that exists outside of the reasons for which the action was committed. Unintended Consequences can be both positive or negative for the person who experiences the Unintended Consequence. An Unintended Consequence exists separately of an Unknown Consequence because the person committing the act may have known that the Unintended Consequence would come to pass.

Unknown Consequence:

A consequence that cannot reasonably be known or predicted, obviously this also constitutes an Unintended Consequence.

Self-Interest:

An act that satisifes the self in some regard. Self-Interest can be a primary, secondary, or consciously unknown Motivator for an action.

Altruistic Act:

A theoretical action that is made only for someone outside of the self, or in the alternative, a self-sacrificing action.


It has been argued that selfish acts, strictly speaking, are the most rational because they are acts that have the singular objective of furthering the needs/wants of the individual committing the act. However, while it is occasionally rational, in terms of survival, to commit a selfish act (If two people are starving, for example, you might beat the other person to death and eat them so that you may continue to survive) when first order needs are consistently satisfied, selfish acts are not always the most rational in every case.

For example, when all of our immediate biological needs are consistently met, we then have the opportunity to develop as social beings. We can begin stregthening our families, which turn into clans, then tribes, then cities, then states, then all out Governments which should theoretically exist for the purpose of ensuring that first-order needs are met for as many individuals as possible falling within that Governmental body.

If everyone that had their first-order needs met acted in a purely selfish way, the result would be unqualified Anarchy. Unqualified Anarchy simply refers to a, “True,” Anarchy in which it is every individual for his/her self. An extreme example of what would happen in an unqualified Anarchy that came as a result of people behaving in a purely selfish way is that people would not feed their children. The reason that they would not feed their children is because it would require them to allocate first-order resources that they themselves have procured, and give those resources to an individual that could not themselves procure them.

Therefore, we can disregard any argument that selfish acts are inherently and consistently the most rational because, if they were, the human race would have not survived to this point because people would not allocate first-order resources to their children, who would therefore die of starvation.

Given that this is the case, we then know that not every act can be selfish, but can every act be taken in one’s own self-interest?


The previous point that people allocate first-order resources to someone other than themselves illustrates that people do not behave in a purely selfish manner constantly. Certainly, some people behave in a purely selfish manner more than others can be taken as a given, and whether or not behaving selfishly is the MOST rational action in any given scenario is case-by-case.

However, the question still remains, do all people act according to their own self-interest, or can, ‘true’ Altruism be rightfully said to exist?

In exploring this question, we can look at a number of different examples of an individual behaving with varying degrees of Altruism on the surface, and perhaps Altruism is a primary motivator, but a case can always be made that Self-Interest is a secondary, or occasionally unconscious Motivator.

Imagine if I am eating some kind of dessert and, to this point, I have not had so much to eat that I am at any risk of getting a stomach ache. For some reason, I think that this dessert is fantastic, so I might take the following actions:

Selfish Act: Eat it all.

Somewhat Altruistic Act: Offer some (Less than half) of the dessert to whoever you are with.

Very Altruistic Act: Offer some amount half or more, but less than all of it, to whoever you are with.

Purely Altruistic Act: Offer all of it to whoever you are with.

Most people know someone who would act in the most selfish way possible which is to enjoy the dessert and not share any of it with whoever they are dining with, unless they are given something in return. In a sense, this is the most immediately rational act possible because the person likes the dessert and has plenty of room for it, so why should the person want to give it away?

The somewhat Altruistic Act of giving some of it to someone, on the surface, does not seem to be a self-interested act because the self is being deprived of some amount of the dessert that it reasonably could handle. However, although the act cannot be construed as purely selfish, it is self-interested. The act effectively builds or strengthens a social bond by allowing someone to (provided they like it) experience the same qualitative pleasure from the dessert that you do. This act also fosters conversation about the piece of dessert because to talk about how great the dessert is without offering any could be considered rude, depending on who you are with.

Therefore, such an act would be Somewhat Altruistic on the surface, but most assuredly self-interested below the surface because it fosters a social relationship which benefits the self (company) and alleviates any potential feelings of guilt for not sharing the cake. There’s also the possibility that someone may return the favor to you at a later time, but that would just as likely be a Self-Interested Unconscious Motivator. Finally, there may be a feeling of pride/satisfaction from committing a generous act.

Everything said regarding a somewhat Altruistic Act can be applied to a Very Altruistic Act just to a larger degree. The one exception being that this act might be more, not less, overtly Self-Interested because in this scenario a person would be making a point of what they are doing, they would feel a sense of extreme pride based on their own superior generosity.

The Most Altruistic Act doesn’t really make any sense unless your company happens to be starving. If you were to happen on a starving person and give them whatever is left of your delicious dessert, though, the act could be Self-Interested in that it is an alleviation of the guilt you might feel for letting the person starve, and for having in abundance where another has next to nothing in the first place. It is also self-interested in the sense that an individual may feel a sense of pride or accomplishment for committing what is, primarily, an Altruistic Act.

My main focus here is going to be my assertion that no possible act that a person can commit, even theoretically, can be construed as wholly Altruistic. Therefore, every act a person can possibly make is a Self-Interested Act in one way or another, because obviously, a Selfish Act would also constitute a Self-Interested Act.

As you may have noticed, not all of the defined terms where used in the OP, which is because I was pre-defining them for later purposes.

“Fair is foul and foul is fair” for “Foul is useful and fair is not.” Lord Keynes.
You must decide if you value ends or means. The Keynesian message is clear: Ethical considerasions are not merely irrelevant, they are an actual hindrance. The question one should ask: is there enough to go around? What is enough? Certainly not the economist who pursues “economic growth” as the highest of all values, and therefore has no concept of “enough.” There are poor societies which have too little: but where is the rich society that says: “Halt! We have enough”? There is none.

Your definitions don’t really make sense. ALL actions fit into the “self-interest” category and NO actions fit into the “altruistic” category. You can’t do something ONLY for someone else. Everything you do, you do for yourself. Including feeding your children, saving a life, giving someone food, charity, etc.

That’s an excellent point, but I don’t think that even the richest society acts in a purely selfish way. In order to be elevated to any great level of material wealth, some cooperation with others is required. Regardless of whether or not the people with whom you are cooperating are subordinate to you does not change the fact that there is cooperation.

Additionally, the Economist operating from the most traditional Economic standpoint assumes that every individual acts in the way that MOST furthers the individual’s own economic interest. For example, if Variable interest rates were to go down across the board, there are many Economists who would falsely assume that an individual (as opposed to spending the money) would save the money that he is saving due to the lower interest rate for a time at which the interest rate might be higher. Clearly, this is an unsafe assumption as, in many (if not most) cases the difference simply becomes disposable income because:

A.) Most people aren’t going to do the math required to determine how much in actual cash they are saving as a result of lower interest.

B.) The amount of savings (Taken on a monthly basis, which is what most people in any other than the highest nor lowest income tiers look at things) is insubstantial to the degree that it is hardly even noticed as disposable income, let alone for saving purposes.

Anyway, the Economist that you are referring to speaks in a certain way with respect to his academic area of knowledge, but probably acts in a slightly (if not substantially) different way in real life.

As far as the very rich are concerned, short of being provided with an example, I find it very difficult to believe that there is any single individual who has operated in the most selfish way in all cases. It is not in dispute that some people/groups/societies are more selfish than others. However, the rich need the cooperation of others to get richer, and for said cooperation, the other people must be compensated in some fashion, so right there you have an Unintended, but Known, Consequence of attempting to gain more material wealth.

That seems odd, so I just want to reiterate that by, “Unintended,” I mean, existing outside of the reasons for which the action was committed. (i.e. get richer)

I agree with you, hence my last paragraph which stated, verbatim:

However, if you contend that no act can be primarily altruistic, and secondarily self-serving, we might have a go at that.

I guess what I’m getting at is that it makes more sense for “altruism” to be defined as “a deliberate attempt to help others,” rather than limiting it to “only helping others.” This definition allows for altruism to exist in reality, so we can still say people who are charitable etc. are altruistic. Your definition doesn’t happen in reality.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/altruism

My definition is essentially a paraphrase of that one. I’m contesting that Altruism (or any word made to fit that definition) is internally contradictory and it seems as though you agree.

Pretty shitty that they would define it that way. if that’s how it is defined, almost NOBODY uses the word correctly.

However, dictionaries don’t define words, usage defines words, dictionaries just try to describe usage, and the way people use the word means something different from that. So, as such, fuck the dictionary, it’s wrong.

The first definition, “Unselfish regard for…” is probably valid because something can be self-serving in one fashion or another without being patently selfish.

I agree that the way people use the word typically means something different from that, but I think that the implication of the discussed definition is occasionally there. I’m more interested in the self-sacrificing aspect than anything, to get into some discussion of whether any self-sacrificing act does not have some self-serving aspect to it.

Obviously, I’ve chosen the side from which I will argue, but I’m not so convinced of the absolute validity of my position (as far as the self-sacrificing aspect is concerned) to avoid the debate.

Pav,
So your saying the rich must be intelligent enough to help the poor from time to time, because this is the way by which they will become richer still. This is exactly what Lord Keynes had in mind, that the day might come when everybody would be rich. We shall then, he said, “once more value ends above means and prefer the good to be useful. But for now we must pretend to ourselves that fair is foul and foul is fair.” That is like saying the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions. I think the flaw in this notion is the demand on the worlds resources when everybody stives to have more. More prosparity means a greater use of fuel. What would happen if the poor sudenly used as much fuel as the rich, world fuel would treble right away. If the rich decided -and Im not saying its likely-that their fuel consumption was high enough and that they should not allow it to grow further, considering how much higher that it is than the poor. That would make a difference in spite of the assumed rise in the rich populations, it would cut world fuel requirements.

To answer your question, every act has some degree of self-serving to it. It’s impossible to voluntarily do something that you don’t want to do. Further, one could say that doing something you want to do is fulfilling a want, a desire. So, if we agree that you can’t voluntarily do something you want to do, then by extension you can’t voluntarily do something unless it fulfills a personal desire. Every voluntary action is self-serving to some degree.

I also think that your definitions require a little work. Here’s the problem:

I have two friends, Bob and Fred. One day, Fred fails to pay Bob back the $100 dollars that Bob lent him for rent the other week. Bob doesn’t want to deal with the situation himself so he comes to me instead: “Hey, Jonny could you possible take Fred’s kneecaps out for me? I’d do it myself but I’m just so lazy these days”.

Given your definition of altruistic, if I were to go ahead and take out Fred, it could quite possibly be an altruistic act. But I think this violates what is normally concieved of as ‘altruism’.

That’s a good counter-argument, but then I would probably suggest that it was self-serving of you to help Bob, perhaps in return for a future favor, maybe you get a cut of the $100, maybe you just wanted an excuse to beat the shit out of Fred.

The point that I am making is that no act whatsover can ever fall under that definition, to wit, there is (at the very least) a secondary self-serving aspect to every action, whether consciously known or unknown.

I agree. Everytime someone takes a deliberate action it is because they wanted to, or because of all of the potential actions available to them it is the one they didn’t want to do the least (assuming all options are unfavorable), which still kind of makes it the one they wanted to do.

This is nothing more than a collapse of intelligence. A man driven by self serving actions fails to see things as they really are. In short, materialism does not fit into this world because it contains a limiting principle because the environment in which it it is placed is strictly limited. Mans successes will eventually become failures.

No, it’s not a collapse of anything, it’s impossible to do otherwise. It’s how people behave. They can’t behave otherwise.

ps nobody is talking about materialism.

Not exactly. If the rich man provides the poor man an amount of resources lesser than the rich man will actually acquire as a result of the poor man’s efforts, then it cannot be said that the rich man helped him. If the rich man provides a greater amount of resources than those derived from the efforts, helping the poor man was an Unintended (and certainly Unknown) Consequence of attempting to gain more resources.

I agree wholeheartedly with your observations. Short of every individual acting in accordance with the definition of Altruism indicated above (a definition, by which, I don’t think anyone can actually act) someone will always have more than somebody else. The question then becomes, how much more will society allow this person to have? That’s a reasonable question, because certainly some societies have the modicum amount of common sense required to collaboratively say, “That’s enough for you.”

Even if Selfishness were to be taken completely out of the equation, we would still probably just act with varying degrees of Primary Self-Interest. If it could be quantified, you could draw a scale and have Altruism and Selfishness as extreme opposites, but I think Selfishness is the only absolute that an act could attain. For all but those few who are unable to break their social conditioning (unless a family member is involved, but that’s still social conditioning) we will default to our selfish biological imperative when first-order needs are threatened. As the situation becomes more and more dire, so does increase the probability of committing a purely selfish action, with the exception of those who are not deconditioned as a result of the dilemna.

The poor are unable to use as much fuel (per person) as the rich because it would require having an adequate enough amount of income to be devoted to fuel use.

World fuel requirements would remain the same. The increase in the demand side (poor using more fuel) would result in higher prices because the supply could not be adequately increased within the near future. As a result, the poor would simply be priced out of the market.

Is this actually the world you live in?
It has been my experience that when you loan a freind some money, you only loan him what you can afford, and if he cant pay you back it is because he dosnt have it, and he tells you he needs more time and you say whatever man take as long as you need, and you go on being freinds. If he never pays you back you might consider not loaning him anymore money but, maybee you do because he contributes in some other way to the freindship or your well being. Some people just allow freinds to not pay them back.

allow me to explain via conversation why it is that way:

Idealist: Not all actions are necessarily in one’s self-interest.
Realist: Give me an example of an action that fits that description.
Idealist: A man sacrifices his own life for his children.
Realist: Why did he do that?
Idealist: Because he values their lives over his own.
Realist: So, you’re essentially saying that he was preserving something he valued more over something he valued less.
Idealist: …I…guess…
Realist: Seems like it fits his own self-interests fairly well to me.
Idealist: GODDAMNIT