Self love/Self hate

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I but the grace of God which was with me. --1 Corinthians 15:10

What is Paul really saying here? Is he giving us permission to accept ourselves with all of our faults? This seems kind of dangerous, doesn’t it? This is one of those versus that seems to me as though it could be easily abused. “Well, I am what I am by the grace of God, so don’t blame me for being a derelict.”

On the other hand, some of us beat ourselves up constantly. We don’t measure up to certain standards we feel we should measure up to. We’re not where we thought we’d be in life at this point. We’ve suffered failures and lost loves and we blame ourselves and we seriously struggle with confidence and we end up at times feeling a kind of overall contempt for ourselves. And yet are we not manifestations of God as Paul seems to be in some way suggesting?

How is this reconciled? How should this verse be interpreted?

2

my interpretation is that paul wants us to stop focusing so much on our faults and worry about other people. after all, contrary to what we tend to think (as so often happens), we ourselves are NOT the most important thing in this world. what matters is other people and we should start focusing on God and others and worry about ourselves last. it doesn’t really matter what our faults are as long as we are casually aware of them.

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Hi Jerry,

You know I’m going to spin this… :wink: It seems as if Paul is saying that he has discovered that he is what he is without referent. In a sense, it even suggests the lack of ‘original sin’. “grace, not in vain”. The rest suggests that his (our) labors are abundance of our true nature (grace) and not of ego.

I have problems with the fault question. We have but experience, and we learn from our choices and their consequences. Good me - bad me is a human naming outside of ‘grace’ which is potential for good or evil with us left to choose. It is choice which gives the verse power.

The failure to meet our own expectations is really the problem of having expectations in the first place. Performing to a standard is a sure way to fail, because the constituent parts of an experience, and how we should act, is always an unknown until the moment arrives. At the very best, we can have good intent to do no harm - to ourselves or others. All else is caught up in the moment of experience. That we fail to see or act in the most beneficial way in an experience is part of our learning. Have I ever made a mistake? You gotta be kidding. The question is having made a mistake, do I make the same mistake again? In the very best sense, Paul is saying that we can and will make mistakes, but if we act from our true nature, we are then in ‘grace’.

Will ego turn us away from this realization? Constantly. It is the ego game of poor me and shifting the blame to others or denying responsibility. It is the ‘devil made me do it’ game. Paul had it right, and says that in grace we express the truth of that which is, but ego refuses the responsibility.

Isn’t this what Jesus of Nazareth faced? Be who you are, take responsibility. And for that, we killed him. We’d kill him again. In fact, we kill him every day, do we not?

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But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I but the grace of God which was with me. --1 Corinthians 15:10

Could it not be interpreted that the essence of what we are, what we truly are, is God-given. By labouring and placing emphasis on our God-nature, the Grace which was not bestowed in vain, we become a superior man. By shedding the mortal aspect of ourselves, we allow the god-nature to shine through. It isn’t about accepting ourselves as we are, but rather in telling us to harmonize ourselves with the part of God already within us.

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This is a good example of taking a verse out of context and trying to make it say what it was never intended to mean. The verse, in context, is about Paul’s staus as an apostle. It has nothing to do with accepting ourselves or self doubt. Paul is saying that he does not deserve to be an apostle, but by the grace of God he IS one.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.

Verses of the bible should not be pucked out and applied to any and every situation. We should try to understand them in context before making any attempt at application. Otherwise we can make the bible say whatever we want it to say. For example, did you know that the bible says clearly that there is no God? Check it out, Psalm 14 verse 1 says…“There is no God.”

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I think that’s exactly what he’s saying. “Judge not, lest ye be judged” applies to oneself as much as it does to any other. To give oneself credit or blame is to deny God absolute power. But this only works when looking at the past, because the past is fact. You can’t use it as a free pass for making decisions in the future, because you can’t know what the future holds. The past is the will of God, whereas our future predictions are just our imagination.

I think when Jesus tells Mary Magdaline at the well, “You’re sins are forgiven, go and sin no more,” he’s following the same vein.

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Hi Ned. I can appreciate your concern. Still, it seems to me that there might just be more here for us. Otherwise, it’s no more than just a piece of Paul’s history is it not? An interesting piece, no doubt, but is that as far as it goes? Paul tells us about his status as an apostle. Well, that’s fine. But maybe we can use what he’s said and see if his example might apply to our own lives in some way.

We’re all apostles in a sense. Paul felt that he was undeserving of his apostleship and understood that he gained it only by God’s grace. There’s a potential lesson in this I am thinking. Wouldn’t it be proper and appropriate to look at Paul’s example and see how it might be applied to the spiritual lives we too are leading?

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Of course, JT, the problem could be the other way round as well. We take too much responsibility. Rather than shifting blame, we take it all upon ourselves. By so doing, we crucify a little of ourselves every day. This, it seems to me, is an ego game as well.

I don’t know which is worse quite frankly.

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Xunzian, I like this choice of wording very much. We’re not so much concerned with acquiring the god-nature. It’s already there isn’t it? It’s just covered up. Shedding. Good word.

I like this Knox. When it comes to judging, it seems historically as if I’ve been treating myself worse than I would dare treat my worst enemy…

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this is why i like people like you. except when people like you get high or something and start yelling about heathens from the median… (that actually happened one town over from where i live) :smiley:

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Ahhh, but Creation, now when those Christians who have distorted the meaning of their faith start throwing misquoted, out-of-place bile at you, you can return with Psalm 14, Verse 1.

It’s in the Bible, after all. Thanks Ned. Nice ammo if I’m ever in an unpleasant argument with a zealot again. Hopefully it will make them think and place the Bible within a larger perspective.

Ain’t nothin’ wrong with Christianity as long as its followers THINK. It’s those that don’t think that get me riled up. If for no other reason than they are ruining it for others.

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To hate self is to hate life.
You are alive.
Life contains “good” and “evil”.
The clashing of “good” and “evil” – is the sickness of the mind.

But if we saved ourselves the irresistable anguish of – judging the entire world, we would perhaps see this:

“Good” and “evil” – are actually our own expectation and desire, struggling against the worth in order to control it, the same way that the police forces act within civilization.

May I remind you, parasites and predators evolved because they could, and by chaos, they did. This also happens inside of society. There will always be “good” and “evil” people.

Perhaps you would acept a free gift:
A condolance, a re-assurance:
" There are more with us then there are with them. Go outside of your home, see – how simple it really is to make a friend, or simply talk with someone. You are safe, these strangers will not kill or hurt you. Life is not evil, people are not evil. Life is moving in a good direction, though it has many problems aswel. "

We hate what we fear, we fear what we think will hurt us, when we don’t understand, we are in a state of potential danger.

Self hate is self fear, self judgement, self-miss-understanding.
God expects of us what is not natural, and calls us the sinner, though he has more power then we do – to undo and stop error. God isn’t there. We have no-one to blame, and everyone to understand – and then [mostly] forgive.

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Hi Jerry,

But Jerry, how could it be otherwise? Instead of an entity that learns by making errors, we are already born into original sin. Isn’t it interesting how just a tiny shift in perception, and juggling a few words around, those who would control us create the perfect tool: guilt. We ought to merge our two threads…

Just a side note. I think we need to be very careful in trying to read too much into Paul’s words. I remain mindful that he was under the authority of ‘Christos’ and his words could easily be interpreted to reflect the notion that man’s lot is to fight against his nature rather than accepting it. It very much depends on what one chooses to emphasize. The struggle with ego, or accepting ego and focussing on allowing our true nature (grace) to shine through.

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Not really. As I see it, Paul’s point is that he is undeserving of God’s high call on his life. However, he accepts it and recognizes God’s grace in fitting him for this call. How many of us have responsibilities that we do not deserve? I am a father to 4 children. It see it as an awesome responsibility to shape the minds and emotions of 4 other human beings. My action and/or inaction could have profound consequences for their future life and health. From Paul’s perspective I should recognise that I am undeserving of this authority, but by God’s grace I can be “fit” to do it well. Others might be able to use the same text in other ways. But the important thing is that we first understand Paul’s perspective and point before we start applying it anywhere.

I would agree if in some sense I am also a blind female fire-eating juggler. Sorry for the sarcasm, I can’t stop sometimes…bad habit. Hey, everyone look at me, I’m trying to be funny…sad really.

Exactly. But to use the passge in any other way is just plain wrong. For example, in Philippians Paul says that he can “do everything through Christ who strengthens me”. Now does that mean “in Christ” I can fly like a bird by flapping my wings, run a mile in 3 minutes, or be happy to eat 15 Chicken McNuggets? No! It does not! In context Paul was talking about money, about living in plenty or in want. His claim is that it doesn’t matter. Whether he is rich or poor he can do everything in Christ. When we pluck scripture passages out of context and apply them to any situation we may as well just take an empty journal and start writing our own bible.

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Aw shucks…you didn’t have to say that. I feel loved.

I’ll try not to do that again. But the temptation is just so strong sometimes. There is something about standing yelling about heathens to complete strangers that just works wonders for my self-esteem.

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Paul says that he labours more abundantly than those who work without the grace of God.

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But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I but the grace of God which was with me. --1 Corinthians 15:10

What is Paul really saying here? Is he giving us permission to accept ourselves with all of our faults? This seems kind of dangerous, doesn’t it? This is one of those versus that seems to me as though it could be easily abused. “Well, I am what I am by the grace of God, so don’t blame me for being a derelict.”

On the other hand, some of us beat ourselves up constantly. We don’t measure up to certain standards we feel we should measure up to. We’re not where we thought we’d be in life at this point. We’ve suffered failures and lost loves and we blame ourselves and we seriously struggle with confidence and we end up at times feeling a kind of overall contempt for ourselves. And yet are we not manifestations of God as Paul seems to be in some way suggesting?

How is this reconciled? How should this verse be interpreted?
–Jerry

A strictly philosophical (I haven’t read much of the bible) interpretation of and attempted explanation for the above.

So, if the grace of God can be with one of us, as it was with Paul, then can the grace of God not be with one of us?

I think we’re beginning with the assumption that Paul is saying Gods’ grace is with everyone and always. Paul makes the point though that: he yet not he*, “. . .but the grace of God. . . [. . .laboured more abundantly than they all].” The grace of God here seems to be a combination, albeit a capricious one; God could be with anyone and anyone could be with God but the grace of God coming to be only when both choose the other.

Since the grace of God is a combination of God and us it could never be with someone who was derelict.

Since God would now be there to carry part of our burden our part would be lesser. Though this burden be lesser, we cannot abandon it entirely to God for we would then be abandoning Gods’ grace.

Now that we’ve whittled it down we can maybe focus on this question: what is this “lesser burden” which we cannot abandon to God but must suffer onto ourselves? Maybe?

How’s that for a non-Christian interpretation? I’m pretty stoked about it! :smiley:

  • “. . .I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I. . .”
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But you are an apostle for Christ aren’t you Ned? From the Greek “apostolos” which can literally be translated as “one sent with a message.” In general Christian terms the word is a reference to all believers who are to be messengers of the gospel of Christ. Aren’t you doing that here? Don’t you do it in some way daily if, in no other way, in how you live your life? And in an even more general sense, we’re all creations of God. We’re all manifestations thereof and in some way representations and messengers. Don’t be like Charles Barkley when he claimed not to be a role model. He was one. He could deny it all he wanted but ultimately it wasn’t really up to him. You’re an apostle Ned. Claim it. It’s yours.

I think you’ve made the mistake of thinking that I have interpreted the passage here somewhere. I have laid out a possibility of interpretation for discussion and no more than that. I have never claimed to know what this passage means. For personal reasons just now I find myself interested in it and thought it was a good one to discuss. Your interpretation:

…does not seem too far removed from the one I laid out as a possibility. But I am thinking that our recognition of being undeserving is misguided, as was Paul’s, given that he was bestowed with God’s grace. Exactly what was unworthy of him if God saw fit to bestow said grace? What is unworthy of you if, on one hand, you feel that, through God’s grace, you can be ‘fit’ to do your job well in the raising of your children?

What exactly is unworthy of any of us?

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I like it. You have every right to be stoked. (And welcome to ILP Sumdfex).

I’m wondering about this idea of God choosing though. It seems to me, as creations of God, that it is we who would choose, either to find God or to turn from God. And if the former, then it occurs to me that we also find God’s grace. That is to say that God’s grace is available to us should we stop long enough to grasp it. I’m stumped, in other words, as to why God would choose one of His creations over another. It seems more reasonable, as long as we’re considering this from strictly a philosophical standpoint, that He would seek us all out equally or be equally available to us should we seek Him. The derelict might not seek, and maybe that’s the difference.

But, yes, once the relationship is formed then it seems as though we might have a lighter burden, but a burden nonetheless as you note, else we surrender God’s grace. So what is the lesser burden, Sumdfex? Something general, or something specific to each individual?

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No.

1Corinthians 12
28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?

The answer Paul is looking for is obviously “no”. Not all are apostles. Granted we can change the meaning of the word and apply it differently. But in the biblical sense I am not an apostle.

True, in one sense of the word all who are disciples are “apostles”, but as I have already said, it is important to understand what Paul meant before we apply it to a particular situation. I think the evidence is pretty strong that Paul would not think I am an apostle. Role model, yes. Apostle, no.

Surely you jest! Me, make a mistake!

You set the frame of reference for the discussion and suggested that Paul was talking about self acceptance. This is the begining of your interpretation. I pointed out that I thought this interpretation was wrong since you had rushed to apply the text without first understanding what Paul was actually saying. The context is important.

Actually, almost everything. The bible teaches clearly that only thing we human beings are worthy of, is death, and a violent death at that. Hence the need for Jesus to die a painful death on the cross for each and every one of us. It is a common misconception that we are innocent and deserve anything at all. The bibel teaches that we are guilty and deserve nothing. Maybe now would be an appropriate time for me to start singing “amazing grace…how sweet the sound…” Well, probably not. I’ll spare you the torture…