Selfish

many people have told me that most if not all of our actions are selfish in nature. personaly, i would not like to believe this, but the more and more i delve into this concept it takes a small truth. somone please prove me wrong (or right if you believe it so).

here is a little background into this, imagine an evangelist are his actions solely for the salvation of others, or are they to up his stance in the religous community. i know this is pretty weak so let me try another…

this goes back to magius’ analysis of happiness, we strive to be happy, that is for the self. i would like to here what comes outa this before i go deeper…

Ayn Rand defined selfishness as an act taken in an individual’s own rational self-interest–that is, an act that produced a net gain in value for the individual performing that act. For example, eating, sleeping, putting on warm clothes in the winter, and cooking raw meat before eating it are all selfish acts, if one values continued life. Value is not only tangible–one can also value friendship, love, etc., and any act taken in pursuit of those values is therefore a selfish act. Rand (and other objectivists and capitalists, such as myself) abhorred acts that caused harm to others, for a multitude of reasons, including one incredibly important one:


  1. Causing harm to another individual or another individual’s property, other than in self-defense, is a gross violation of the principle of sacred individual rights that are the very basis of capitalism. One does not have a right to a living at the expense of another; need is not a valid claim. Or, as Rand put it in Atlas Shrugged, “I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I shall not live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine”.



    As an aside, let me ask this: Why is it that so-called “selfless” acts are (wrongly) considered by many to be morally superior than selfish acts? What is moral about working against one’s own life? And from a practical standpoint, what advantage is there? In a best-case scenario, a society in which everyone performs selfless acts will result in everyone’s interests being served, but then that is also what will happen in a selfish society–and in the selfish society, everyone will be happier because each individual will be working for something that benefits him.



    This is my theory on why selflessness has unfortunately come to be recognized as a virtue, not just in Western society but the world over:


    If one looks throughout history, one will find that the overwhelming majority of philosophers and religious leaders, including Aristotle, Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Kant, the anti-individual Marx, and even Rand herself, while they were without a doubt masters of a persuasion and often brilliant thinkers as well, they accomplished very little in the way of productive achievement. This meant that they had very little on which to survive. As such, they all (with the exception of Rand, who had integrity) realized that by including a principle in the philosophies or religions they espoused that promoted selflessness as a virtue, they could provide for their own existence by convincing everyone else to give to “the needy” (including the philosophers), who then as now are generally little more than lazy leeches, and to put service to others ahead of themselves. Quite obviously, their little ruse succeeded.



    Incidentally, I have a theory on the origins of taboos on sex similar to the theory above–the people coming up with many philosophies were so busy spouting what often amounted to hot air that they couldn’t get any and were jealous of those who could.

Consider a man living his life on an otherwise deserted planet. It’s entirely acceptable that this solitary man act “selfishly,” as though his needs were always paramount. In fact, the characterization of what it means to be “selfish” loses its meaning on this planet of one man.

Suppose this man were to sever his hand with an axe. If the matter was premeditated, then an invisible observer might conclude that the man was insane (though insanity can be thought of as an extreme deficit of wisdom). If the self-mutilation wasn’t premeditated, then the invisible observer would still note that the man had acted unwisely. Even if the axe had “accidentally” fallen from a shelf and severed the man’s hand, the hidden observer would remark that the man was unwise to place the axe so that it might fall and hurt him.

To isolate this man is to strip away the commonplace notions of morality from Ethics. What remains are questions concerning wisdom rather than goodness. If we could make any judgement at all about his moral character we would have to admit that it lies precisely in his wisdom. His wisdom relies upon his correct understanding of where exactly his own best interest lies. Socrates was supposed to have said:

“The only good is wisdom and the only evil ignorance.”

This remains a viable definition even when a second person arrives on our remote planet. Their wisdom depends upon their understanding that the ultimate individual selfish behavior lies in mutual cooperation and compromise, rather than in coercion and contention. The quality of life on the planet is directly related to how well these two men understand that in the long-run, their maximum benefit lies in a coexistence of trust and mutual aid. Immoral behavior follows from ignorance of this fact.

Those who murder, rape, and rob banks suffer from an ignorance where their own true self-interest lies. They’re not guilty of excessive selfishness. On the contrary, they’re not acting selfishly enough! Our jokes about the stupidity of criminals are not far off-the-mark. Even the most clever criminal “cuts off his nose to spite his face.” The fight against crime is a fight against ignorance.

Michael

Sorry, I edited my post and it logged me out within that time. So that I ended up sending another post. I decided to edit this one to say what it is now saying instead. See below post…

Polemarchus stated:

Your first statement is quite wise, for the first two (murder and rape) are crimes that almost everyone would agree are wrong at all times and in all places. But one who robs a bank, doesn’t necessarily suffer from an ignorance. Nor does it mean that one is acting in their own self-interest when they murder, as I have just finished Dostoyevsky’ Crime and Punishment which is about a man who kills a woman for the sake of everyone else. His approach is a utilitarian one where he believes she is causing more harm than good and only good can come from killing such a person. I seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent, my point here is that Polemarchus’ statement is making one false assumption, and that is that our current legal system is right in all counts of what is right is legal and what is wrong is illegal, and therefore those who commit a crime are suffering from ignorance. I sense that the conversation will lead to Plato’s argument that only that person would commit a crime who has an error in his/her logic and doesn’t truly understand virtue. If so, fine; I will express my opinion on that statement afterwards. I believe it is quite possible, if not usually the case, that a highly educated person commits a crime because they know they can get away with it; and because they know morality is just a concept used to keep people living within close proximity to each other without devastation and anarchy. Moreover, they realize that what is legal and right one day, may be illegal and wrong the next; and vice versa. So it would seem, if we follow Polemarchus’ statement, that one is smart if they follow and obey the laws, while one is ignorant who disobeys the laws. So much for the ignorant revolutionaries that put their life on the line and broke laws so that we could have freedom.

What’s your take?

Magius, u really dont expect others to read all that. I didnt even read the first line.

(sorry)

Natsilicious,
I think my post holds enough merit to be read, to answer your question, I don’t expect you to read it. But I would hope that if you didn’t read it, that it would be because you are not interested in the subject matter or do not have the time. I think the worst thing a person can do is not read something because it is long, so what if it’s long? If you have the time to read it, how can you know what magic those words hold until you have read it? I always say that every book and every page contains it’s own magical power to change the readers life, how can you know that this page or that is definitely not the one to change your life?
My point is, if you do not read my post for the simple reason that it is long, then you are robbing yourself of one of the greatest joy’s of life that could be held in any grouping of words in any place or time, even here on the ilovephilosophy message board. I’m not saying that you are suppose to go and read every grouping of words you are associated with on a daily basis, just saying that the things you do involve yourself in life, you should take the time and pay attention, read, especially those long quote. I can tell you that some of the greatest posts I have ever read on this message board were the long ones, and a majority of those, the exceptional (I would say) were written by those who have a habit of writing long posts.

Peace.

Is this an inside joke between you two? I just don’t get the point that Natscilious is making here. Polemarchus’s post was longer as well but seems to me that both, all three posts actually, were worth reading.

I’m going to post my opinion now and read the thing later. It’s just that it’s 4 in the morning and I’m thirsty and sort of tired.

Nothing I believe is done without thought (I wonder why I don’t always apply that). So in that case there is no way to mindlessly go about pleasing others. You can’t do something to make someone else happy without knowing that it will be pleasurable to yourself. So in a way yes everything we do is based on a desire to make ourself happy but I believe there is more. Like everything else I don’t want to settle on that. Especially being that it makes us all shallow and heartless.

Now I know this is religious based but it stemed from this board so I’ll keep it here. How many people would be christians if they knew they weren’t going to heaven or hell after death? No reward for being good. No gain at all. And does that make you all greedy for being nice only for the reason of being rewarded. In a way you can say that atheists are better morally because they follow their beliefs on the idea that they aren’t getting anything out of it. Not that I use it as an arguement to piss off christians but It’s just a thought.

CBA,
believe it or not my experience has been exactly that, athiests are nicer, calmer, less negligent, less reckless, and much more honest. Especially in comparison to Christians. I believe it’s because of the whole going to a little room, telling the priest your sins, saying 10 hail mary’s and everything is forgiven. It’s a route to take the guilt off your own consciounce. Athiests, when they do something wrong, they feel bad for doing it, the only way to be forgiven is to apologize to the person or start treating the person right. It’s more of a learning experience for athiests, while a redundant tradition to excuse bad behavious for Christians(not meaning all do,but my experience has been that most do).

What’s your take?

Actually I read them all atleast once. I’m probably going to read them again later because I can’t concentrate with people doing construction work and blasting techno…

Cause I’m hardcore philosophy lover. grrrr :evilfun:

why do you think that? i think i know why, we were taught that from another person, who was subconsiously (sorry bout spelling) was thinking in their own self interest. we have all been taught that since we were young. i dont think it is shallow or heartless at all, until it turns into something like greed, but that is another topic…

Hi Magius,
Thanks again for your reply. Assuredly, I’m not making any assumptions about our legal system. In fact, I’d be ashamed to be caught discussing something so base as our legal system. Laws are something good men fly above rather than slither along. Laws are for Enron lawyers and O.J.'s dream team.

“The wise man need not submit to the law, because he is already just and chariatable: reason and love make him so.” Andre Comte-Spoonville, A Small Treatise on the Great Virtues

“Authority, not truth, makes the law.” Thomas Hobbes

A bank robber has an insufficient wisdom to see that his actions help create a world in which stable social institutions become inviable. He can’t see that his robbing banks is, in the “big picture,” not in his own best self-interest. In short, he lacks the wisdom to act according to Kant’s Categorical Imperative.

Men of virtue and wisdom need not have spent a single day in a classroom. Men accomplished at picking locks possess a very specialized education, yet we generally think them of little virtue.

Again Magius, I’ve said nothing about the law, and generally prefer not to speak of the law. The laws apply to me, but I do not apply to them.

Michael

Polemarchus stated:

Polemarchus, look first to your opening statement in the quote, I propose the idea to you that stable social institutions can be very bad and are very bad, specifically banks. If one hundred years from now it is finally realized that as a people we work for our country, in essence we help our country to thrive, for this we receive well deserved money, this money needs to be put away so why not have the government be thankful for their work and create non-profit institution where the money is held securely for them; none of these charges for using your debit card, no percentages, etc (this debate is an altogether different one that warrants a place in the Political and Economics forum).

Anyway, what is the ‘big picture’ Polemarchus, that this robber doesn’t see? How is a robber robbing a bank not acting in his own best interest? Or how is it not in his best interest to rob a bank other than the obvious that he may get caught?

You say that he lacks the wisdom to act according to Kant’s Categorical Imperative, which formulation? There are two. Actually, your argument makes sense for both, since a robber robbing a bank wouldn’t will that robbing banks become a universal law. But observe the fences we have put up using the Categorical Imperative. I’m sure your aware that the categorical imperative falls into many pitfalls, specifically the ‘top-down model’ that has perplexed human beings for thousands of years. Life is not so simple as to have an general principle that over-rides all experiences and can be applied to all situations. Can you honestly tell me, Polemarchus, that you act only on that maxim that you would have become a universal law!?! I don’t know anyone that does, I know I don’t. Hence why we have regrets. We are still aware of our own moral maxims that we would put to universal law but we fail to do it. Moreover, I think this may warrant a new thread, do you truly think that we all would have the same things put into universal law? Kant’s second formulation of the categorical imperative has much controversy surrounding it and the symantex each person derives from it, suffice it to say there is ambiguity concerning the second formulation. Most postulate it means that we treat all rational creatures as equally intrinsically valuable. I have heard many spout this wisdom but not have an incling of the error that it brings. So I ask you, Polemarchus, what your view is on us treating all rational creatures as equally intrinsically valuable, and if you agree with it (which I predict you do) please explain how you suggest we go about putting this ‘treatment’ into practice, give some principles and explain some specifics to help all our imaginations project the idea into reality.

Normally I would not ask this question, but I have learned from talking to you that you have formulated opinions and views to many of the ancient philosophers, ie. Aristotle, Plato, and Kant; I’m not sure if you mentioned reading Hobbes (although you did use a quote from his work) as well as Nietzsche - if you have then my question is this: If you are familiar with inegalitarianism you will know that this is why the above ancient philosophers would disagree with Kant’s second formulation of the Categorical Imperative, but they would agree with the first formulation. Why do you think this is, and who do you think is wrong and why?

Another problem I find with Kant, I wish I could quote the very words he used but I can’t seem to find the quote within my books, is that to him a rational being is one that understands the Categorical Imperative, all other creatures are irrational. I think this is absurd and arrogant. There are going to be many things some of us understand while others dont, and others will understand many things that some will never understand, if one of these things is the Categorical Imperative than what do we say about that person? That they are irrational?

Polemarchus stated:

In a certain way you are right, you never typed the words, ‘Law’, but you spoke eloquently of crime, ignorance, and selfishness. But crime is all about law (well crime is a byproduct of law), your reference to ingorance was in connection to crime (Ie. The fight against crime is a fight against ignorance) as was selfishness(Ie. They’re not guilty of excessive selfishness. On the contrary their not acting selfish enough!); so really you were speaking of law. When you say that a criminal who robs a bank, you are really saying a person has done something against the societally agreed upon norm and accepted practice and belief of what is right and wrong (law).

What’s your take?

Magius,
I don’t identify with any specific school or era in the history of philosophy. My closest identity at the moment might be with J.P. Sartre, but even here I’m probably comfortable with only 10% of his ideas. I don’t follow any “ism,” and am not an apologist for anyone’s thoughts other than my own. If I quote Wittgenstein for example, it’s not because I’m a Wittgensteinian, it’s because I was charmed by a very specific idea of his, or his eloquence in saying it. The entire literature of philosophy is my inheritance. If I read a disagreeable idea, rather than slamming the book closed, I try first turning the page. I’m no longer surprised when I pick up little jewels of wisdom from thinkers that I normally disagree with. For example, I recently quoted Nietzshe in a reply to you despite my general aversion to Nietzshe. Nietzshe had both good and bad specific ideas. He attempted, as we all do, to condense the totality of his ideas into a compact system of thought. The fact that I dislike his condensation of ideas does not alter the fact that some of his specific ideas were good. The traditional saying that, “No man is so ignorant than I might learn nothing from him,” is worth all the more when one considers that the great minds throughout history tended more towards brilliance rather than ignorance.

I should have spelled it out more clearly. I’m speaking of the well-known first Categorical Imperative.

Please take a moment to consider what I’m about to tell you. I’m unaware of a single posited ethical theory that can be applied in every possible moral situation. The freshman primers of ethical theory are filled with the standard objections to egoism, utilitarianism, relativism, etc… What aficionado of philosophy could not recite a litany of objections to the most popular theories? I’m tempted now to apply the conclusions of Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem to Ethics, but I think I’ll leave that for another thread. I will say that no ethical system yet posited appears to be complete, or free from inconsistencies.

Stand-by, because it’s time to trundle out the “big idea.”

Men cannot afford to wait until philosophy produces a flawless, polished and logically unassailable ethical system!

I had to make ethical decisions yesterday. I shall have to make more of them today. Must I abandon an otherwise perfectly useful system simply because someone has found it to be inconsistent under a unique and extreme condition? None of us live perfect lives. The best of us only ever manage to approximate “the good.” So why, by Jupiter, would we hold out for a perfect theory when at best, we could only imperfectly apply it?

I can honestly tell you Magius, hand on heart, that I find Kant’s maxim (that I universalize my behavior) to be the single best moral rule-of-thumb that I have ever found. I don’t think a week goes by that I don’t explicitly think of it. It is everything a rule-of-thumb should be. It’s more concise than the “Ten Commandments” and serves as an unambiguous moral compass when I would otherwise be searching for that elusive “Eleventh Commandment.” I’ve never consulted Kant’s Maxim and had it let me down. The day might come when it will let me down, but until that day does come, or until I find a better maxim, I shall continue to rely upon it.

Perhaps my engineering background makes me comfortable with quick approximations, back of the envelope calculations, and easily remembered rules-of-thumb; at least until I’ve the leisure to perform an in-depth analysis of the problem. I doubt you remember what a “slide-rule” was Magius. Engineers used to carry them around (even before my time) in order to make quick approximations, valid to three decimal places. Engineers used slide rules to help put men on the Moon. In most real-life engineering problems a three-place approximation is good enough. In fact, typical physical measurements are usually not much more accurate than one part in a thousand (at least without taking special precautions). Well, it’s the same with Kant’s Maxim. It’s as useful to me for moral approximations as a slide rule was to an engineer circa 1960. Pragmatic moral necessity requires that I act more like an engineer than a scientist.

Having said that, I enjoy the theoretical study of ethics a great deal. At the moment, I’m reading, Reasons and Persons, by Derek Parfit. I’m reading it alongside, Reading Parfit, edited by Jonathan Dancy. Magius, if you haven’t yet come across Parfit, judging from your posts I think you’d be as enthralled by him as I am. I suppose I could haul out another metaphor here. Theoretical ethics is to pure mathematics, what pragmatic (in-the-field) ethics is to applied mathematics. The study of pure mathematics trickles down to applied maths, but it also happens that an investigation in applied mathematics occasionally boosts the study of pure mathematics. Ditto for ethics. I think from time to time about applying what I read in theoretical ethics to real life, though up till now, I can’t honestly say that I’ve done so. Mostly it’s from a lack of need. Kant’s approximation has provided a sufficient number “decimal places” in the moral dilemmas thus far in my life.

The mathematician Karl Jacobi wrote, “Man muss immer generalisieren,” or “One must always generalize.” It’s important to generalize to the proper degree in ethics. If I live in a community I must think of myself as a member of that community. If the community is part of a nation, I must likewise think of the nation, and so on. Robinson Crusoe didn’t have to take into account the good of the citizens of Paris when he made a decision on his island. To do so would be to needlessly over-generalize. I don’t have to take into account the good of an alien culture on the far side of the Milky Way galaxy when I decide whether I should financially help support my local public radio station. A narrow view of selfishness is that I should listen to the music and let the other sucker’s pay for it. I only need to generalize my behavior to the level of my community to see that if everyone did this I’d have no Mozart to listen to on my radio. An enlightened self-interest says that I ought to contribute money to the station. Kant thought that ethical behavior is based upon duty. I say instead that it’s based upon wisdom, and moral wisdom is partly based on an enlightened self-interest. This is why I wrote that the bank robber was not acting selfishly enough. Marcus Aurelius noted as much in his Meditations:

“What’s good for the bee is good for the hive.”

Well, I’d go on but I’m afraid that Natsilicious is already cross with me. By the way, Salvador Dali once gave a speech that would likely make Natsilicious beam with pleasure. Dali came up to the podium and said,“I shall be so brief that I have already finished,” and then he sat down. Unfortunately, poor Natsilicious isn’t able to see this because he gave up after my first sentence. :slight_smile:

Michael

Polemarchus stated:

I don’t believe in anything (don’t mean to generalize, or contradict myself, but I do have a few considerations for flawlessness) being flawless, especially anything conceived of by humans. Ethics, don’t exist as anything but human conceptions.

Polemarchus stated:

If someone has found a perfectly useful system to be inconsistent under a unique and extreme situation then it isn’t a ‘perfectly useful system’. Furthermore, by Saturn (thought I would pick a different planet), I said before I don’t believe in anything conceptualized by humans to be perfect.

Polemarchus, I really don’t want to cut and paste your whole paragraph but I feel I have to in order to get you to understand my point…

Magius asked in his previous post…

Polemarchus answered with…

Now please explain to me where in your paragraph do you answer my question? Please take focus of the word ‘act’ and the word ‘only’ within my question to you. Maybe it’s three paragraphs down where you said…

Maybe it’s just me, but I sense ambiguity in that answer, could you simplify as to whether or not you act only on that maxim that you would have become a universal law?

Polemarchus, what of the rest of the questions and assertions I posed to you in my previous post? I think them important to the relevant topics posted by you in your last response.

I have come across Parfit in my first year of University.

I must once again praise your writing style, I truly love it, you made me laugh with your last paragraph. You are very witty and I think you should think about writing a book about your life to leave to someone you care about so that the knowledge you have attained in life may get passed on and make another’s life better. My imagination tells me that your mind doesn’t entail the knowledge of an entire university library, it tells me you have attained the knowledge of a series of university libraries. Your posts are always enjoyable reads…please don’t change.

Cheers,

Magius,

I agree.

My bad. I fell into the colloquial use of the term “perfectly,” as in, “Who threw away this perfectly good banana just because it has a brown spot on it?” You’re quite correct; nothing found wanting is perfect. I had intended to say, “There’s no need to abandon a perfectly adequate system simply because someone has found it to be inconsistent under extreme conditions.”

The short answer is no, I don’t “only” think of Kant when I decide how to act. A rule-of-thumb is rarely all-encompassing.

I’m sorry to say that I didn’t reply straight-away to your question about Kant’s 2nd formulation, the so called, “Formula of the End Itself.” Well Magius…I’ve a certain reluctance to plow into Kant here. His ideas are as wide as they are deep and I doubt my short mention would do him justice. His theories have been debated at length in the literature and I doubt my own criticism of Kant’s moral theory would be more than simply a re-hash of what’s already on-the-shelf. But if you really do want to discuss Kant’s ideas, I’ll certainly oblige you. You’ve been very accomadating in discussing what interests me. It’s only fair that I reciprocate. I’d only suggest that we do it in another thread.

My wife flew home yesterday to visit her parents. I was relieved to receive her call last night, and to hear that she’d arrived safely. Under certain circumstances I might risk my life to attempt to save any one of the other passengers on her flight, but the plain truth is that my wife is more important to me than the entire contents of an airliner.

I’m surprised that you’d predict that I might treat everyone as having an equal intrinsic value, Magius. Of course your question concerns the meaning I attach to the life of others, as opposed to what I’ve written earlier concerning the meaning I give to my own life. I create the value of my own life as I assign a value to other people’s life. It’s far less important that I value each other human life equally, as it is that I place the value of each human life above a certain threshold. Thus, I categorically value the life of a man with severe Down’s Syndrome as a man. I consider the most severly retarded man’s life as having more value than the most intelligent Chimpanzee. But if I were the captain of a floundering lifeboat at sea, all other factors aside, I might throw the retarded man overboard before I’d throw over a professor of philosophy (well, as long as the professor isn’t a Solipsist!). You might ask, “What if the retarded man were your brother?” In that case I’d probably throw over the professor. Of course I’d jump over the side in a heartbeat if it meant saving my own wife. The point I wish to make is that I am making these value judgements about the worth of myself and other people. We continuously make these calculations of moral value.

Suppose a drug addict had ruined his own kidneys and asked for one of mine. I’d probably tell him to take a hike. I discipline myself to live modestly, eat sensibly, and to exercise. He simply exchanged his own health for Hedonistic pleasure. Why would I think he would treat my healthy kidney any differently than he treated his original kidneys? On the other hand, what if the addict were my sister? You guessed it; she would have my kidney. I’m the one who is assigning the value to these lives. I am Nietzsche’s man; the valuator.

Magius, suppose that next year you will have a paper published by the Royal Institute of Philosophy that is to Ethics, what Einsteins’s seminal paper was to Classical Physics. Let’s suppose that you create a new and earthshaking ethical system; one that is both complete and consistant. My question is; Do you think that our knowing your radically new and flawless system would likewise radically alter the way men actually treat each other?

Doubtless, you won’t be surprised to have me tell you that despite your discovery of the Omega of all ethical systems, I don’t think human behavior would radically change. Consider that as far as it’s possible for men all over the planet to agree on anything, they already agree by and large, that the killing of innocent humans is wrong. We are not waiting for some new ethical theory to convince us of this fact. We pretty much already agree about this, yet we’re still plagued by war, murder, and starvation amid plenty. This is a good example of why I say that knowing the good is one thing, but doing good is quite another.

Open up a freshman Ethics 101 textbook to any random page. Put your hand over your eyes and randomly put your finger down on the page. Now follow the text until you find the first mention of a “benevolent” ethical theory. Suppose, for the sake of argument that “Utilitarianism” were the first theory mentioned by your random selection process. All right, forget that we know this theory is flawed. Forget the fact that this theory will fail us under certain circumstances. I want you to consider how the world would change if all men should tomorrow begin to act only according to Utilitarian principles (i.e., the greatest good for the greatest number of persons).

Yes, of course in some cases we’d deprive an individual for the sake of society. In some case we might even commit grevious errors in our zeal to abide by a system we know to be flawed. I say however, that the universal adoption of even an imperfect system, such as Utilitarianism, would be a far better thing than what we already have, namely; moral anarchy. The world would become a vastly better place to live if men were to uniformly apply even this flawed system. The universal adoption of a slightly flawed ethical system is vastly preferable to our having a perfect ethical system largely ignored.

Thanks so much for your kind words Magius. Your posts are similarly appreciated. You bring to mind a quote by Robert Nozick in his, Philosophical Explanations:

“Children think an argument involves rasied voices, anger, negative emotion. But a philosophical argument isn’t like that…”

BTW, if you happen to pass this way I’d be happy to meet up with you. Consider yourself invited to Vermont.
Michael

Polemarchus stated:

Sure why not? Given that it is flawless, given time I think that people would change the way they actually treat each other. It’s funny you mentioned this, because I have been thinking about a morality, society, law, and political system that would advocate and instill a general principle that would help all the world’s people get along. It’s kind of in the construction phase if you know what I mean.

Polemarchus stated:

Do they? Not so, I have talked to people that believe in certain circumstances for it to be okay to kill another. You did add the qualifier ‘innocent’, but what does it really mean for one to be innocent? Let’s forget the obvious examples of innocence and concentrate on those vague areas that would and do get people into trouble.

Polemarchus stated:

It would most likely be a disaster within the first few minutes of the implementation of the principle. We need a theory that includes every act, ie. a bad day, misunderstanding, intoxication, mental disturbance, etc. Regardless of whether we treat each other right, there will be problems, for the simple reason that we are all different. The fact that I have a different upbringing then you in itself will create problems, having problems is not the issue (to me) - it’s how we deal with them. Because of my upbringing I was taught to always take off my shoes by the door when at someones residence, some Canadians walk around their house in their shoes - if they did that I my house I would tell them to take them off. There is much missing from my last statement, nowhere did I say I would be upset, livid, angry, or anything else. It’s not the other persons fault they were not taught the manners I was; all they need to do is be told. Good and bad are concepts that have clouded the issue of human interactions for thousands of years, the higher the morals the bigger the mess. Since the higher the morals the more people were attached to them and could not take a single situation of those morals being bent or broken.

Polemarchus stated:

Concepts such as universal, slightly flawed, and perfect hide the truth. One doesn’t realize their need to put sense into these words and some drown in them. Men die for ethics to be forced upon others because they are so blind to the natural existence of matter and the unnatural existence of much of the conceptualization we create and act as though they are not only higher than us, but higher then nature - we claim they are universal. It’s a case of the ant claiming to be bigger than the elephant.

Polemarchus stated:

I sincerely thank you, from the bottom of my heart. I am flattered. Should I have the funds I might take you up on the offer some time. But I’m not sure why you invite me, we don’t know much about each other - you must be going on the things I have stated in the message board, but if there is anything you wish to discuss, by all means let’s discuss. If it’s anything personal you can simply message me privately. There is no need for us to meet, not that I don’t want to. I would actually love to meet you and your wife, especially after all the things you have told me about the way you live, I have done much thinking into the way people live and the way they should live. You have quite the quintessential existence according to my standards. Most do not realize the damage of their uncherished and unrealized existence, as I said before in one of my posts, a human can only dream of doing as much good as a squirrel.

Thank you again, I cherish the invitation.

seems like i missed alot, guess im gonna have to think bout this one…

Great thread, I will write more when I’m not about to go to sleep.