Sending people to hell would be self-punishing

If God created the universe out of nothing but his own will, then the universe is merely an extention of God’s will, and so God. Every human being that he created is an extention of Himself. However, we supposedly have free will… if you imagine his will as, say, a muscle, then how is it possible for him to not be in control of this muscle? The idea that something controls this extension of God indicates that he has a “sub-conscious” that he’s not in control of. But he doesn’t have a sub-conscious, because he is in control of himself (and hence everything), and so would have to be able to control free will. But regardless of that, if we are just an extension of God then he would not punish us because we are part of him and that would be masochistic.

To the extent that “Harry Potter” is an extension of JK Rowling or “Sunday Bloody Sunday” is an extension of U2 then I’d agree. But Harry Potter and JK Rowling are not the same thing, and neither is an old song and an aging bunch of rockers.

The bible claims that we are made in the image of God, but we are not little Gods or even of like-substance with God. The issue of how God allows free will but yet determines the future is a question that many have tried to answer over the centuries. I’m not sure anyone has managed a totally satisfactory answer.

Of course, the Hindus believe otherwise. All things are aspects of God.

The mistakes and lack of logic are so numerous I don’t know where to start.

Where did anyone say or conclude (based on what) that God created the universe purely out of his will? How would anyone know what God created the universe out of, couldn’t it just be energy, couldn’t God just be pure intelligent energy?

How can you have free will and still be controlled in your decision to go to hell? How can you decide at all if you are being controlled?

Where do you get the idea God is in control of everything, again this contradicts free will?

Why do you think that going to hell is Gods punishment if it is a choice? Do you have a problem understand choice?

Why do you contradict yourself at least twice in such a short post?

Do you have any idea what you’re talking about, where do you get you ideas about Gods personality?

If there was no matter before God created it then he created it out of nothing and so he willed it to become.

You can’t decide if you’re being controlled, which is why it’s unfair for God to send us to hell (parts of himself to hell).

Because God is omnipotent and omnicious; he created the universe knowing all the events that would take place in it.

1: We don’t have choice, God is in control.
2: If we did have choice, then it is still a punishment that God inflicts upon us; if a child hits another child, then putting him/her on time-out is still a punishment.

Show me where.

I know what I’m talking about just as much as you do; not at all. As for where I get ideas about His personality, I don’t because I didn’t talk about his personality. I just pointed out that it would be, hypothetically, masochistic.

Are your thoughts part of you? The difference between Harry Potter and the universe is that JK Rolling put it on a piece of paper; God created it and manifested it and continues to manifest it entirely with his own mind. We are a thought of God’s, and so we are part of him.

Oh boy, it’s about to get full in here…

My point was that this is pure speculation, there will never be enough evidence to determine what God made matter from, the best we can do is guess that it is outside this physical world which would mean that it’s possible that different laws apply, or maybe no laws at all apply. Your basing ideas on an unsupportable foundation IOW.

But there is a choice, we exercise it everyday, there is no evidence to support anything else, if so then please show how you are not choosing to engage in conversation right now. The idea that God sends someone to hell is pure projection on your part from ignorance of God and his laws. No on is sent anywhere, they choose to go to hell.

Example:
A rebellious child is repeatedly told by his parents that it is not right to do this or that because it is dangerous and could cause harm, but the child does it anyway when the parents aren’t looking and gets hurt. Now did the parents hurt the child, or did the child’s choice hurt the child? You can’t make someone do anything they don’t want to do, you do know that don’t you?

God is not Omnipotent, there is no such thing, it is a made up fantasy word that does not exist in reality. If you can show me one real example of omnipotence then you win that argument, if not then you must concede that its unlikely to exist.

Get real; of course there is a choice. You can choose to serve yourself above another’s well being and hurt them in doing so, or you can choose to think of their well being first and not hurt them. This is the choice that we make every day in society and this is the basis for a sin. If you didn’t have choice then there is no such thing as good or bad or sin or wrong or hell and we would all be preprogrammed robots that God controls to his desires. What good or what purpose is there in that, why even bother? Geeze, you just dumbed God down below the intellect of a kid with an ant farm, why even discuss such a God?

Pure silliness, no logic in such an idea.

…Just as are you.

But how do they get there? God is the one who allows them whe pathway to hell; he’s the one who set up the defining rules of sin; he’s the one who created free will, hence creating choice, hence creating hell; he is the one who determines what the moral and ethical rules are and if someone should go to hell for breaking those.

No, it is God punishing them. I’d say it’s the current popular belief that God sends them to hell for blaspheming or sinning; therefore, the burden of proof is placed upon you and you have to show whether it is God that sends them to hell or not.

God is omnipotent. Again, the burden of proof is placed upon you.

Because I doubt that God exists and I doubt even more that if he did he would send relatively simple, ignorant people to hell.

Here, I’ll prove this using pure logic: deductive reasoning!

Premise 1. God punishes those who intentionally fault by sending them to hell.
Premise 2. We intentionally fault.
Conclusion. Therfore, God punishes us by sending us to hell.

I’ve already qualified my statement with the fact that omnipotence has never been observed in anything. Why is the burden of proof on me anyway, your the one making an asinine statement that is utterly absurd and impossible/illogical.

God created all the souls and has the attitude of father towards His children. The father sometimes may have partiality in showing the love equally to his children. But God is always having infinite love for all the souls in equal manner. Even the punishments in the hell are meant for transformation of the souls from lower level to the higher level. God always tries to help the soul even if a trace of possibility exists in the cycle of the deeds.

One soul need not recommend about the other soul to God to show the grace. If somebody recommends to his father regarding the welfare of his brother, how foolish it looks! No soul should recommend to the God about other soul for protection or for showing the grace. If any soul recommends like that it is only insulting the infinite love of God. It is only the climax of the ignorance and the emotional love on the other soul, which lacks even the basic analysis of spiritual knowledge.

The unimaginable God is beyond the four-dimensional model of space and time. You can imagine the dissolution of matter converting into energy filling the space. Subsequently you can imagine the disappearance of energy in the space and the result is final vacuum. But, even if you try for your lifetime, you can never imagine the disappearance of vacuum.

God being the generator of space is beyond space and therefore, can never be imagined. If you have to imagine God, the pre-requisite is the imagination of disappearance of space or vacuum. Of course space is a form of very fine energy and in this context the word energy used by Me can be taken as crude form of energy. The only knowledge about God is that He is beyond the knowledge (Yasyaamatam… Veda).

Adi Shankara ( a previous human incarnation) made certain assumptions, which are hypothetical to preach the spiritual knowledge to the devotees at various levels. Generally the devotees are trained in the logic pertaining to the imaginable items in the world. The development of a concept by them is from a worldly example and also its application is to another worldly example. For example since the black color of the mud (cause) is entering into pot (its effect), the conclusion is that the nature of cause enters its effect. This conclusion is applied to another worldly example and they say that the bright color of the gold lump (cause) must also enter the chain (its effect). Here, mud, pot, gold lump and chain are imaginable items and are worldly examples.

Hence, all their logic is limited to the imaginable items only and that cannot be extended to the unimaginable God and His link with creation is also unimaginable because it is a link between unimaginable God and imaginable creation. This does not mean that logic is useless. It is useful in denying an imaginable item claimed to be unimaginable.

For example in the ancient time the awareness is thought to be independent energy like a free electromagnetic wave in space. But today due to advancement of science and analytical faculty it is clearly proved that awareness is not an independent item but it is completely dependent on the co-existence of functioning nervous system and the inert heat energy produced by the oxidation of food. It is only a special work form of energy appearing through a complicated special technology of brain and nervous system. It is not independent even like the electromagnetic radiation traveling in the space. That which was wonderful yesterday is clear today. It was unimaginable but now is imaginable. Therefore, there is a knowable region extending up to space in the creation.

In this knowable region there are certain layers of attained knowledge and certain layers of unimaginable nature. But the layers of unimaginable nature will certainly be analyzed by logic and science in the course of time. But there is a dead limit of this logic and analysis of science, which is the space beyond which the region of eternal unimaginable nature exists. Therefore, by conquering the unimaginable layers within the knowable region, it does not mean that one day or other the logic or science will cross the dead limit of space also and capture the unimaginable God existing beyond space. That is impossible. You may try and try and one day you may touch the roof of your house by the constant practice of high jumps. But this does not mean that one day or other you will also touch the sky by the continuous practice of high jumps. Today the unimaginable layers within the knowable region may appear wonderful and these layers can be called as Maya.

The word Maya comes from root meaning “wonder” (Maya vaichitrye). The word wonder does not mean that it will be always unimaginable. The temporarily unimaginable systems also look wonderful before the analysis. The magic show looks wonderful but it can be analyzed and the wonder may disappear after analysis. Hence, wonder need not mean the permanently unimaginable item only. The deeper layers of this universe are wonderful without analysis but may be realized in future. These layers are temporarily unimaginable and the word wonder is used in the case of these also. Therefore, Gita says that you will find the universe as wonderful (Mayamtu Prakrutim……). The Universe is infinite with unimaginable beginning and unimaginable end. This means the cause from which the Universe started and the same cause in which the Universe ends on dissolution is the unimaginable God.

Mud is the beginning stage of the pot and also the end stage since the pot ends in the mud on destruction. The Universe exhibits the unimaginable God by its unimaginable limits of beginning and end. The space is generated from God and the dissolution of space can only show the real nature of its cause (God). When the chain is dissolved in fire, then only the gold lump, which is the cause of the chain, appears in its original form. But even if you imagine for millions of years, you can never imagine the dissolution of space and therefore you can never imagine the original nature of God.

God is beyond space and God is the permanently unknowable region even for the intelligence enriched with science and logic. Hence, God is a permanent wonder and the creation consists of some knowable regions of knowledge without any wonder and also some temporarily unimaginable regions with temporary wonder. Now the word Maya can be used for the wonder, which is both permanent (God) and which is temporary also (the deeper layers of the world up to the space).

Well, the vast majority of Christians I’ve met have stated that God is omnipotent. Also, in the online dictionary four out of five of the definitions given state that God is an omnipotent being. I mean, come on, why would you dispute this widely-taken-to-be-true idea and then ask me to prove it even when you yourself support the idea of a God “that is utterly absurd and impossible/illogical.” (Quote from you)

If 4 out of 5 people tell you that they saw Elvis in a UFO with Bigfoot would you believe that too?

The point is, some things are obvious and don’t require a lot of observation or thought to tell if it is possible, this is one of them. No proof or evidence that omnipotence can ever exist, if God were intelligent he would not contradict himself by breaking his own laws, if he did the laws would cease to exist.

What restricts him from breaking his own rules?

Logic and Truth, either God is a Truthful and logical God or he is a liar and self contradictory. If he is then by his own law he would be diminished in his power. A house divided falls, an army divided has not the strength of one that is not, a person divided is in constant turmoil with himself, many examples in real life show us that this law is absolute and the effects are real and devastating.

Actually if you think about it, that is the dumbest question one could ask, why not argue that the color blue does not appear to be blue to the majority.