We can perceive some things (e.g., a bird) with each of our five senses. Other things (e.g., the wind) we can perceive with only some of our senses. And still other things (e.g., bacteria) we can perceive only by extending our senses (microscope). Do things exist that we are unable to perceive with our senses or any extension of our senses? What would be the nature of such things?
Humm…a singularity behind an event horizon?
Do you accept ‘singularities’ as being theory or fact?
I accept that there are blackholes, and so probably singularities or at least something very close to a singularity. So I believe that there is an event horizon you can’t see through. That’s not to say you can’t interact with it, though, so it’s a tough call.
One of the assumptions upon which science, particularly physics, is based is that the universe is the same all over and that everything we see is all there is. By my way of thinking that puts science on very shaky ground. Therefore I have to say that the answer has to be we don’t know if other things exist.
In addition, we don’t know what sort of world we live in currently. Since Descartes, we have gone down the road of believing we live in a real, material world as opposed to a virtual, or dream, world. There is no proof that a virtual world does not exist and in fact physics has come up with some evidence to support a virtual world. However, the consequences of choosing one over the other are profound. So if we live in a virtual world, then that opens up vast potential so far undreamed of.
Plus, there are a hell of a lot of things our current senses don’t pick up because we have disabled those senses. Once we get those senses working properly then who knows what we will be able to detect with them? So never mind thinking about extensions to those senses, let’s get our natural, inbuilt senses functioning properly first!
I admit there are other animals on earth who through suppostion of scientists can see other levels of light, or their acuity inherent of the type of species they are, hear, smell, taste and feel with greater abilities than humans. Maybe our mind with it’s greater reasoning abilities negates needing those ‘improved’ senses due to our unique perceptive qualities. It does intrigue me though how one cat who has been the news recently can sense when a person is near death in a nursing home facility.
These may be outside our reality, however, and then they wouldn’t exist, per se. But yes, even theoretical physicists postulate that the universe may not be uniform and the laws may be slightly different in other regions of the universe that we could interact with, even if they have good reason to believe otherwise. Good point.
Senses that have been disabled?
OK, let’s take the sense of taste. Currently we live in a world where experts tell us that we should only consume so many grams of salt per day maximum. It’s not just salt, of course, that has a daily ‘recommended maximum’, but let’s use that as an example.
Any healthy animal, and I include humans here, knows whether or not it needs salt. How does it know? It knows because when it tastes it’s food, it’s taste buds detect a lack of salt and the animal then wants to eat salt to make up for this deficit. In other words, your taste buds and my taste buds and every body elses’s taste buds have evolved to perform that function. That is the purpose of having taste buds!
But experts such as nutritionists or other scientists or doctors come along and insist that they know better. They tell us how much salt we ought to be eating. And we believe them. So we listen to experts instead of using our sense of taste. Then we just stop using our sense of taste to give us that essential information and so we disable ourselves and our ability to function without experts.
The human body is quite capable of self-regulation. It has evolved to be that way. And that is what senses allow us to do. They allow the body to self-regulate by giving it information about its environment and its interactions with that environment. We don’t actually need experts. They get in the way. They disable us. But we have used experts for so long now as crutches that we are frightened to try living without them. Thus we have also disabled our minds. We have disabled our minds because we allow others to make decisions e.g. about diet, for us, instead of thinking things out for ourselves and using our own senses to tell us what we need.
So we have disabled our senses such as taste and we have also disabled our ability to think for ourselves. We have, in fact, become dependent on experts to such an extent that I wonder how many of us could actually survive in a world without them. We have sold our independence and freedom to experts. Bad news.
That is just one example of how our senses have been disabled. I can think of many others. For just one more example, we have lost the ability to use our emotions as a means of giving us information about our environment. Sounds strange saying that in a society that is awash with emotions but in a sense that’s the point. Our emotions are so out of hand now and used so in-authentically, that we have lost the ability to ‘read’ them in order to give us accurate information about our environment.
By my way of thinking, and by my experience, that humans worship the god ‘reason’ to the extent that they do has disabled us from using our senses. So it’s not that reason negates the need for senses, it’s that we have allowed a single-minded pursuit of ‘reason’ e.g. science, to deaden our senses. That means we have lost our ability to use our senses the way animals can. And that is very bad news.
I have spent the last 10 years researching dreams and dream interpretation and as a result of using dreams have developed an awareness of my senses that I think few people today actually enjoy. I have deliberately cultivated my senses and rely on them, for that is their purpose, to give me information about my environment. That is what our senses have evolved to do, after all, so you might say that all I’m doing is going ‘back to nature’. I’m rediscovering my ‘natural’ self or to put it another way, an ability to function independently of experts (see earlier post to Tortoise for an explanation re experts and senses). Another way of putting it is that I have learned to use and trust my natural instinct, just the way animals do. Which brings me on to that cat you mention…
Apart from cats detecting when a person is near death, it is known that animals detect, for example, early warnings of earthquakes and will instinctively seek safer ground to avoid the effects of the event. Observing that behaviour in animals, they could be used as early warning systems which are far more reliable than manufactured instruments. But humans are so damned fixated on using scientific instruments instead of instincts, I sometimes wonder if the death toll of the tsunami in the far east a few years ago couldn’t have been avoided if people paid more attention to the animal world instead of scientific instruments. Not using our own senses or being able to trust and ‘read’ the senses of animals disables us big time.
I will go so far as to claim that it’s not just cats who are perfectly capable of detecting death or animals that are perfectly capable of detecting earthquakes etc., etc. If humans get back to using their senses the way senses have evolved to be used, then we would be able to do exactly the same things. Thus the ‘mystery’ of that cat would actually seem perfectly natural to us and possibly even mundane!
Just for the record humans aren’t fitness maximizers as suggested by sociobiology, but rather adaptation executioners, the question is not “how is this person increasing their fitness when eating salt” the question is “What is the nature of the evolvedd salt-liking mechanism”)
As in we spent 99.9% of our time as a species in hunter/gatherer groups where salt/sugar was sparse, we don’t have adaptations for telling us how much ofwhat we need, we have adaptations for getting the stuff in an environment where the supply is pathetically low.
Plenty adaptations result in less fitness because they are outside of where they evolved.
Of course none of that shit actually happens in the dozens or hundreds of tribal groups that exactly mirror the environment we evolved in, dream interpretation isn’t anything but blowing smoke in the wind, and people routinely pay attention to their instincts in modern-day societies.
On both counts you couldn’t be more wrong. You should try opening your eyes next time you walk out your front door.
What textbook did you swallow to come up with that load of nonsense?
You actually prove my point by spouting text books - “fitness maximisers”?, “adaptation executioners”? (oh, please, give me a break!) - instead of thinking for yourself.
Tobermory07, although I loved your original posts here I can’t understand why you are dismissing a valid criticism so thoroughly. It seems highly questionable to me whether our senses can be trusted implicitly when we likely can’t precisely distinguish between ‘want’ and ‘need’.
For instance if we’re talking about diet, if people were told to eat whatever they feel like they might eat tons of fats to the point of obesity. On the other hand the guidelines offered by ‘experts’ are useless if we ignore what our own bodies tell us. It is necessary to experiment for ourselves and ultimately to trust ourselves rather than take ‘expert advice’ as an absolute or a cure-all. Maybe in the end we can trust our bodies exclusively, but it would take an undeluded mind to correctly interpret the information.
Individually - Yes! I think so, knowing someone with ‘golden ears’ - who constantly astounds me at what he can hear - not just in volume, but also in differentiation.
Collectively - it seems reasonably Likely - perhaps we will develop further tools to ‘perceive’ them in the future…
Very interesting points. OK, so all this started with a discussion about senses and developed from there into a more specific discussion about senses such as taste and sight ahd hearing etc., being disabled.
So, regarding senses, you suggest that it is questionable that our senses can be trusted - in other words our senses cannot be trusted.
That then begs the question: what is the purpose of having senses? What is their function? If we are not intended to trust trust our senses, why do we have them? Can we use our senses to distinguish between ‘need’ and ‘want’?
Anybody got suggestions regarding those questions?
The questions you raise regarding the purpose of the senses, their function, and whether we can trust our senses or not is dependent on what we want or expect of them. Trust them to do what exactly? To reveal the fundamental laws concerning reality? To survive the longest amount of time possible?
Anon to preface my following statements, I don’t necessarily disagree with you points to Tobemory07, but I do have a specific qualification to ‘need’ or ‘want’. I had been diagnosed by my family doctor to have hypertensive tendencies concerning my vascular system. As most might know, salt is derogative to my health. As much as I may want salt on my food, I have learned it is detrimental to my blood pressure. Supposedly, we receive adequate amounts in the food we eat. Although I take medicine for it now, I still have to watch my diet since I had flagrently didn’t watch my lifstyle habits. This may work for the ‘need/want’ argument in this discussion.
It fits in with what I’m saying, which is that there isn’t a purely one-sided answer to the ‘trust the senses’ versus ‘trust the experts’ debate. I think you’re agreeing. Aren’t you?
Anon, after rereading through the posts one more time I would have to say I am agreeing with you. My mountain cedar alergies have me addlebrained if I may use that for an excuse. Some would say that crutch doesn’t have a leg to stand on. 