Sharing the nature of God

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Every spiritual being is, by nature, a temple of God, created to receive into itself the Glory of God.
Origen Commentary on St. Matthew’s Gospel, 16,23
Ye are a sanctuary of the living God, according as God said - `I will dwell in them, and will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people (2Co 6:16)

It may seem strange to read these words, especially for Christians who have cursed their nature. The thought of people being naturally dedicated to receive the “Glory of God” is perhaps unnerving for the dogmatic amongst us. Of course the imagery is Judeo/Christian and written inspired by the Gospel, but doesn’t this statement open up possibilities that conventional Christianity doesn’t entertain so explicitly?

However, Origen does say that “spiritual” beings are personally or collectively a Temple of God. Who is ‘spiritual’? What is meant by ‘spiritual’? I think that you would receive a number of varying answers is all participants of ILP would answer. Spirituality is also a term that is often used and misused in our times, lost somewhere in the jumble of archaic vocabulary, misunderstood and used in the wrong context even in dictionaries – which at least can be excused for giving the contemporary meaning of the word.

The spirit and the soul are often mixed up, being a breath away from each other. But what is being put into words by saying “Spirit, Soul and Body” are the three areas of experience and feeling that we have. The spirit is the area of unity, empathy, intuition and communication. The soul is the area of psyche, of emotion, of feelings und perceptions that steer our biological and mental preservation. The body is the area of our senses, of nerves and hormones, of the vegetative system, the heartbeat and breathing, and of course of carnal delights (and temptation).

Therefore the spirit would be regarded as the point of contact for the Holy Spirit, or Life-Force, Great Spirit, Tao, or G-d, whatever terminology we wish to use. It is widely accepted that such communion or unity is often not a communication like between human beings, but often by use of feelings, dreams, visions, experiences and to a great degree – hindsight. This is also the way that scripture portrays the confrontations of God with man - if not in allegorical tales of conversations. Often it is just described as an insight that has been received, without explicitly saying how.

Being filled with the Glory of God means to finally assume the image of God that we are created to be. It essentially explains why Jesus, as the One who was experienced as being full of the Holy Spirit, is said to be the Son of God, sharing in God’s nature. And “as many as did receive him to them” he also gave “authority to become sons of God.” In both Christianity and Tao there is talk about “going home” and Jesus describes the prodigal Heir returning dejectedly home but receiving the ring of recognition as the Son.

Any thoughts?

Shalom

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god=any form of artistic selfish and self respectfull being
we are of the holy spirit therfor we cannot escape his plan
damnation or bliss i dont care because you need a unequal
universal balance between “religious truth” and “personal belief”
also a experience to evolve the fiber of your mental being but
the problem of being of god is impossible to escape im sure he questions
us wherever his “heaven” might be.

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Hi Bob,

I’ve come to the conclusion that any effort to suggest something beyond language and concept is futile. We use every metaphor we can, just as did those who wrote long before us, and with the same results: No understanding or outright dismissal. For those who see, or think they see, there is something - even if we can’t express what the something is, and that is spirit. But it finally comes to the ineffable as we’ve discussed before. I’m far more inclined to simply discuss the attributes of religion as it is presented. There is plenty of discourse available there. As for the mystics… well they make themselves apparent, and we acknowledge each other in understanding, if not in the words…

JT

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Hi JT,

I can understand your position, but I think there has to be some discussion about terminology, despite the Ineffable having a nature that cannot be discussed. As I have said before, I think what our world suffers under more than anything else, is misunderstanding and hidden agendas. Some Agendas are so well hidden that some people think they are written in the Bible.

I think that Spirituality has always been sacrificed for Agendas and Theology has often pitched in to help, which is why the churches have long lost the connection to the roots of Spirituality and why every now and again a scourging was necessary to unearth those elements of the Church that were growing spiritually and bring them into line. Of course, it isn’t a religious method, but a means used by those in power on a regular basis.

Is this a conspiracy theory? No, I think it is deeply human nature for those in power to ensure that they remain in power. It is universal. Spirituality provides inner freedom, whether in Zen, the Tao or the mystic traditions of the monotheisms, and is recognized as liberation from illusion, imagined mind-constructs of reality, and real oppression too. That is why it is a threat and why the Sages were often in danger.

The applicability of what I have written, even though it seems foreign, is in the fact that there is a real need for freedom, especially in the discrete forms of imprisonment that are slowly being implemented through the globalisation process. The Brave New World of tomorrow may not contain the clones of Huxley, but many adapted servants of the system. Each time an empire was founded, a new step towards this goal was made. Of course, since mechanisation, the steps have been rapid.

It is the advancement of totalitarianism, in one form or another. The question is, whether we accommodate ourselves within it or retain our freedom and build sanctuaries where people can be helped. The “sons of God” are the aware, who make peace with the people of all creeds and faiths instead of operating according to the needs of the machine. They are those who still feel the pulse of nature, who see the diversity of the ineffable Architect at the beginning of time, they hear the melody of life, retain their hope in liberty, and put their faith in the Way of Love.

It is our destiny to be real human beings and to be thereby “filled with the Glory of God” and the incarnation of his image, even if the Churches place this beyond death. Sharing the nature of God is what we were created for.

Shalom

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Hi Bob,

Many people have seen the movie “Matrix” and are intrigued by the science fiction presentation. I would submit that the matrix is and always has been the lot of humanity. Occasionally, some will see through the illusions, but true freedom to be in that which is rarely penetrates the the ‘game’. The churches, mosques, synagogues, and temples of this and that haven’t lost their way, they ARE the way. They are a powerful part of the matrix. One finds God not because of, but in spite of, religion. It matters little that the beings considered the founders and foundation of all religious movements had truly the heart understanding that leads to God. Their vision and message was co-opted and integrated into the illusions before they were cold in the ground.

Is it possible for religious organizations to return to the original transcendant vision? Possibly, but the power of the illusions says no. It remains the province of the few, the too few. Still we must celebrate those few. They are those who preserve the vision.

JT

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Hey Bob!

Hope you’re well!

Hope I’m not going to sound facetious or impudent here but surely this is all part of god’s divine plan is it not?

What business is it of ours whether and how the world suffers? Does not each of us have his own house to put in order? Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I think that when the established churches and their congregations stop trying to put the world right and instead concentrate on improving themselves as human beings things will begin to improve.

The church, whatever church, is top heavy.

Jesus, however we understand that name, that word, must essentially epitomise mastery in morals and the wise teaching or transmission of said morality.

peter

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I guess it doesn’t matter what I think. Whatever God does he does and my only choice is to learn to love it…whatever the fuck he decides to do, I have to learn to see it as holy and perfect. Or not. He doesn’t care. That is, he won’t change his ways to fit my definition of holy. Anyway, next time somebody rapes me, pokes out my eye and force feeds dirt into my nostrils I’ll ask him if he works in mysterious ways. If he says yes, well, all is forgiven. You gots to have mysterious ways, baby. It’s all about the mysterious ways. I don’t have mysterious ways. My ways are pretty obvious. My pants are mysterious though. Mysterious pants. Where do they come from? Salvation Army? Definite MAYBE. Why worship God when there’s me? I work in mysterious pants. “Where’s that expense report?” “Don’t ask, he works in mysterious pants.”

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Hi Gamer,

In a sense, you’re right. Whatever it is we call God is neutral, or in your terms, doesn’t care. The universe is neutral. No rewards or punishments from a big-guy-in-the-sky. The universe is made up of creative and destructive forces, apparently in some sort of rythmic balance as far as we can tell. All things come into being and return in the ceaseless creation and destruction cycles. Only man (as far as we know) has the capacity to see the constant coming and going. For man it is this ‘seeing’ that gives us the power to create that which is of the greatest benevolence or that of the greatest malovence. We all must make our choices and live with the consequences.

Oddly some find that their nature is to express their love of life and in that, find their spiritual being. Can I prove this? No. Does anything I’m saying succumb to rational linguistic expression? No. But it is real. You know why? Because I say it is. “Thou art not august unless I make thee so.” Most shrink from this knowing, this responsibility to create, living as victims of themselves, clinging to the illusions of duality so that their responsibility to celebrate life and be in their spirituality is given over to ‘someone else’. Living as a spiritual cripple is a choice made, not assigned. Few can accept this.

JT

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Well I can accept it dammit…whatever the hell it is you’re talking about, I can accept it because I have a can-do attitude. Love ‘o’ life baby.

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Hi JT,

You are right of course; such ideas like the Matrix come from somewhere and why not from a somewhat unusual view of reality? That is what I am trying to say. But the very fact that we can see through the game means that we can avoid it in small pockets of spirituality, we can build small resistance cells where people can breathe again, where they can experience soul nourishment and heal, where they can reconnect with soul mates.

I think our position isn’t all black. Some of us have room to move, despite suspecting that the internet is as much part of the Matrix and is logging conversations. I also think that it is true, what the New Testament says, that our main contention isn’t with flesh and blood, they are just caught up in the Matrix. Our contention is with an attitude, with a certain mind-set, which is installed in people and contributes to the Gleichschaltung of globalisation. That means that the only way out isn’t fighting people (with superhuman powers like Neo), but preserving independence by building up the healthy and the wholesome in a spiritual community.

Of course this all seems very dramatic – and for some people in this world it is – but you might see that the images of the NT, adjusted to suit modern imaginations, apply in a manner that most people wouldn’t have thought. They apply, because they are not as far away from reality as people think, if you free yourself from fundamentalist ideas.

True, but it is a process that must continually be renewed because we have a need for it. There is a yearning for the life we have been born for. That is what draws people to God, but it is often funnelled into fundamentalist ideas or political campaigns, which lastly serve the Matrix. I think some of these ideas lasted longer than you give them. The Christian idea lasted at least until 250 AD, adapted to the Greek situation, which means that movements can survive.

Exactly, everything begins as a small offshoot. The Mustard Seed was an example that Jesus used, why should it be wrong?

Shalom

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Hi Peter!
Nice to hear from you. I’m suffering under a cold at present, but I’m hard to put down. :slight_smile:

You are unfortunately falling foul of the fundamentalist ideas. They are so widespread that most people believe that they portray what the Bible is about. God’s mysterious plan is seen in the fact that he always manages to awaken spiritual people, despite what ills befall the human race.

If you follow the (very rough) storyline, Abraham is called and struggles in a world full of idolatry. His son Isaac struggles too, almost identically to his father. Jacob, on the other hand, is a non-conformist and learns that he has to struggle with God for his blessing. His favourite child, Joseph, becomes an Archetype of the Christ and for a long time Israel grows in Egypt but falls into in slavery.

A redeemer is born and leads Israel out of Slavery, giving them the spiritual heritage on which to build a separated nation, different to the rest. But nothing is perfect. Moses doesn’t see the promised land (except from far off) and has to hand over to Joshua. The taking of the land doesn’t work out as it should, Gideon is the example that God isn’t about conventional warfare, but that spiritual purity and cultivation will win the day. After long upheavals, Israel wants a King like all other people, which shows that the struggle to be self-regulating through following the spiritual leaders is harder that we think. Finally, Israel is caught up in the political struggles by entering alliances that they are warned about, and end up in exile.

Finally, a leader is awakened, who leads Israel back home. Despite his influence, Israel splits throughout the centuries into Israel and Juda, of which only Juda (and the Benjamites) remain. The Prophets warn Juda of their sin, threaten with consequences already apparent from history, but they also console with images of Redemption, if Juda remains faithful to the mission of freedom. The NT takes over from there and if we accept the images used (see above) we can see that the mission hasn’t changed.

It is one thing to have assurance that good will prevail, it is another to close ourselves to the fate of others. The spiritual are communicators, they are empathic, and they recognise themselves as part of the human family. Essentially we need each other like each organ of the body relies on the other. We cannot be stoic without being callous, which is not the attribute of the Life Spirit, or else we wouldn’t intuitively know that it is wrong to be cold-hearted.

Having ones own house in order is of course the primary task, otherwise we would just be contributing to the chaos. Admittedly, there are numerous Christians who run about helping others whilst their own lives fall apart. Very often these people are fleeing from circumstances that they haven’t sorted and consequently live in a mess. Unfortunately it gives rise to the suspicion that many helpers are looking for gratitude and recognition.

I can understand your feelings and agree to some degree. But that is the result of piety not having a true spirituality as basis. It is often said of the truly great Sages or Mystics, that the bigger the problem, the longer they meditated or prayed before acting. This is something that in our present day is considered a waste of time, time being money and consequently we are back in the Matrix. Spirituality is the means of separating ourselves in order that we can help more effectively. Something similar is experience when you want to help someone you are emotionally attached to: you often lack the ability to decide rationally and treat a disappointing outcome as a personal failure or even guilt.

Therefore, spiritual stoicism is different to philosophical stoicism. The distance we need doesn’t implicate that we do not feel, but that we push those feelings aside or give them to the Ineffable, in order to do what we feel we need to do more effectively. Essentially it is what you are saying I believe; perhaps you were just not aware of the implications. Unfortunately the Institutions themselves do not actively support such a demeanour.

If morality is more than beliefs, but the integral principles of our identity as spiritual beings, then I agree.

Shalom

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Hi Gamer!

Whereas I can understand your bitterness, I disagree. There is so much fundamentalist doctrine around that people can’t differentiate any more. Your bitterness, however, makes you pliable for the Machine or the Matrix or whatever you want to call it. You are being used and you don’t like it, but you don’t know how to get out of it. It is understandable, from what I have read from you in the past that your surroundings supply you with all the fuel you need for your resentment.

Essentially, blaming God takes the blame off of those who you love. By projecting your feelings against an Ueber-Vater, you make it bearable to live. The problem is, you don’t believe in him, so you express yourself in this way. Your bitterness shouldn’t be against people, nor against some imaginary despotic god, but against something you can’t grasp - let’s call it an adversary. Religious imagination has painted this adversary in many colours and some people actually believe in these images – perhaps more than they believe in God. It is something that wins us over and then even taunts us with our failure.

Tentative is right in saying, “Whatever it is we call God is neutral, or in your terms, doesn’t care. The universe is neutral. No rewards or punishments from a big-guy-in-the-sky.” God is neutral, because we can’t draw the Ultimate Being onto our side in a conflict. The Ineffable isn’t changeable. The changes we see God going through in the Bible reflect more the changes in mans understanding. What remains however, is that this life doesn’t usually end the way we want it to, whether sooner or later. We lack overview and fail to understand what is actually going on.

I’ll quote Tentative again:

The thing is, you have more potential than you know. You can change the course of the stars, figuratively speaking. But the power you have is dependant upon how you treat yourself, and how much you are willing to learn. It has to do with answering a calling, perhaps not in the picture book way that it is often portrayed, but very real.

Tentative is sometimes amazing in his perception, that’s why I can only agree:
“Oddly some find that their nature is to express their love of life and in that, find their spiritual being. Can I prove this? No. Does anything I’m saying succumb to rational linguistic expression? No. But it is real. You know why? Because I say it is. “Thou art not august unless I make thee so.” Most shrink from this knowing, this responsibility to create, living as victims of themselves, clinging to the illusions of duality so that their responsibility to celebrate life and be in their spirituality is given over to ‘someone else’. Living as a spiritual cripple is a choice made, not assigned. Few can accept this.”

Shalom

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Thanks for your answer Bob. I do feel like I’ve once again been misunderstood…that there’s a hairtrigger impulse on your camp’s part to set up a straw man, namely that I contend it’s God’s fault, or blame an “other,” for the problem of “evil” or any discontent I experience. This is far removed from what I was saying and how I feel, but I admit I’m often very unclear and manic in my prose, so it may be hard to tell. I could see the misunderstanding so I take the blame. But to clarify, I was lampooning the belief in the deity once again, and especially the “mysterious ways” argument, which is a sort of special pleading that breaks certain rules of critical debate that I personally have adopted. You should know that I in fact do not blame anyone or thing for any “pain” I may have to endure in life and my approach is actually very close to what JT mapped out, but I think it arbitrary to set up some over-arching “all-for-the-best” framework in the universe. I find the best way to deal with pain is to feel it and accept it. I don’t hate the universe for it…but I certainly don’t LOVE the universe for it either! It is the UNIVERSE which works in mysterious or UNDESIRABLE ways, and it is fair game to change it if we can. Whereas God’s mysteries are often off limits to being changed (even if we can) because he’s always right. This belief, which I consider a fiction, makes life harder than it needs to be in many cases.

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I like the matrix analogy, but I don’t think there is any specific “way”. If you are truly interested in finding the “way” you will. if you’re interested in following the spigot of religion you will. (which tentative stated I believe?)

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … _Color.dtl

(can’t hotlink this image)

(and it will show a different comic tomorrow morning.)

If I’m reading you correctly JT, god puts up the mask of religion, to scare off the non-devout, while also making sure that those only truly ready will see the true face of god.

(am I way off here?)

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Gamer writes:

True, the universe can appear mysterious, but only if we see ourselves as seperate, outside of the dance. We are the center of the universe if we allow it. We can see the malovence, the chaos, caused by those who give over their life authority to false gods, but it is their sleep or death of spirit. There is a reason why the bible speaks of being “born again”, why buddhists speak of “sartori”. It is the awakening of the spirit, and we can only feel sad for those who continue to slumber.

Scyth asks:

Actually, “God” doesn’t do anything. It is man who puts up the mask - a mask to bind, shackle, and hide himself from himself. Instead of being in himself, man creates powerful idols and vests them with authority to control their lives. Man looks for the “path” to God, but only after having made that God. There is no “path” anywhere but to our center. We go without going…

JT

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JT, so the universe holds no mystery for you? Interesting. I was going to say that I could never consider that an intellectually honest position, but I’ll instead say it’s a position I can’t identify with, and with all my heart nor would I want to. Of all of man’s gifts and burdens, the ability to NOT know all the whats and why is our final bulwark and birthright…

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Hey Bob!

Sorry to hear about the cold. Make a speedy recovery!

You raise many points but I am deeply hurt by your misrepresentation of the most noble and honourable of all moral creeds: Stoicism. There is no higher morality. Aspects of it are surely the equal of the Sermon on the Mount in integrity.

How: forgive me, I can’t grasp your meaning from the context? If you’re referring to ‘god’s divine plan’ then I can only say that this too is a Stoic idea, and an idea, generally, of the ancients.

And I don’t think this follows. The spin you have put on it is one I must question. Why always only the select few! (For this is the implication.) Surely we are all ‘spiritual’ beings and the difficulties arise necessarily because our ‘spirituality’ gets buried under the externals or idols of life’s journey? We get caught up in the illusions and easily swayed by impressions*, each and every one of us, but does it follow that some among us should be denied spirituality? Is it now a punishable crime to be human and frail? Are we also to punish the blind man for being blind? And what about he who is blind in his highest faculty? And what about the innocent?

I would suggest that the Christian in his many guises very often gets caught up in idolatry, i.e., things worldly. The same sin, if that’s what it is, as the gold-worshipper or pornographer. For the object or degree of desire is surely irrelevant: it is desire itself that has to be overcome.

*Idolatry/impressions

Yes, and these idols spoken of, this idol worship, is, unquestionably, surely, nothing other than what the Stoic might regard as the incorrect use of impressions.*

Bob, this is so untrue! This is like a crime to say this. This is like a grievous and heinous crime against humanity. This is like crucifying Stoicism. It’s a travesty of the truth to say this. When you read of old Epictetus, you read of a wonderful human being: I cannot accept this being said of the true Stoic.

This is so mistaken: it is the very opposite of what the Stoic stands for.

We are all children of the divine nature even those among us who murder and brutalise women and children. These poor lost souls, blind in their governing faculties, cannot be written off as one might write off condemned meat: we must learn how to be merciful rather and forgive them their trespasses. Isn’t this the message of Jesus? It’s easy to love your friends but what about your so-called enemies?

This is also the message of Stoicism.

And these are issues of great complexity…!

peter

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IT would survive the truth of the DA VINCI CODE…

IT would survive even if the body of Jesus were to be discovered tommorrow…

IT is… SUPERCHRISTIANITY.

The theory of Superchristianity proposes that Christ “atoned for the sins of mankind” by experiencing a long dream or hallucination while dying on the cross, within which he experienced the moral inadequacies, predations, and victimizations of every human being that has ever lived.

Knowing what it was like to be both victim and perpetrator, Christ was used by God to change the very meaning of what it is to be evil, transforming it from being just a “thing unto itself” into a sacrificial state of mind experienced by Christ and re-enacted in the “real world” by human beings, in the interest (of God) of a mass evolutionary moral transformation of the evil mind…

Superchristianity also asserts that while lying in state in Joseph’s tomb, the disembodied mind of Christ also experienced a SECOND dream, within which he frustrates the ruling powers of darkness by surviving their every murderous attempt, and educates humans who know nothing of what is truly going on…this second “survival-dream” is re-enacted by real humans, who are partial psychological clones of Jesus Christ (intermittently sharing his thoughts, beliefs, etc.)…they are impervious to harm, cannot die by murder…and they exist.

The theory of Superchristianity is contained in a notebook binder, it is a 100-page book, but is in the process of being stored within 2 or 3 100mb zip drives, ready to be downloaded upon request if there is space to contain this amount of data…

For question, arguments, or comments, contact:

phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com

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Do you have cooper human pairs or stuff like that, in superchristianity ?
Sorry, I had to do a stupid joke… Any way, what does SC says in terms of theology ? Question such as trinity ? etc.

Marc

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So, what are we trying to hide from the mirror of reality by putting up masks of religion?

I don’t know if I buy this reason (hence I asked for another). When one puts on a mask, we do so to hide ourself from others.

Yes the god we find is the god we’ve made. But the god there IS, is not the god we’ve made. That god has no reason to hide behind the mask he’s created, as he’s hiding right in plain sight. Thus in a way you are right. There is no path… it’s like the parable of the journeying man searching his whole life for god, and when he finally finds him, he looks the other way so that he can continue searching.

I think, many of us agnostics while searching for god, have found god, yet we turn away (if every so slightly, even) so that we may continue our search for god.

BUT, what is the search for god, but the search for ourselves? God is nothing without faith, and faith is nothing without god.