of course it is. i won’t use the standard utopian drivel as some have described it, i’ll speak in your terms. if someone is “poor” he or she doesn’t have the same start on the race as someone who is “rich”… 
wtf??? genetic traits cannot be controlled by the person who acquires them when he or she are born. inheriting money and such on the other hand can be controlled and changed( it’s a mankind/womankind imposed system, that can be simply changed).
the “shit happens” argument is a product of those who can’t argue well enough about their own beliefs( it’s used by the ruling class), comparing inherited wealth and private control over means of production to genetically inherited traits.
it comes down to changing the system, and giving a “real” equal opportunity.
i like the “panties” comment. the reality is my dear friend that if you said that to me in real life, due to my barbaric eastern culture and non christian humanist upbringing i’d probably stab you in the ass
Private corporations have a duty to make a profit. If there is no profit, then they MUST cut costs. I am not saying this to “attack” UPS or FedX, it is simply the nature of Capitalism.
The postal service charges 39 cents to deliver to ANY place in the United States. UPS cannot make a profit and does not deliver to many locations. Such deliveries would be at a loss. Moreover, just what is the price that UPS charges?
For example, try finding Hawthorne Nevada on the UPS delivery site.
go.mappoint.net/ups/PrxInput.aspx
I’m under the impression that we LIVE under Capitalism. Such being the case, there is no huge list HERE. However, I AM giving you examples.
[/quote]
How do TVA’s rates compare with those of other power companies?
TVA electricity costs less than most electricity produced around the nation. For residents in the TVA region, the average cost of one kilowatt-hour — the amount of electricity it takes to burn ten 100-watt light bulbs for one hour — is 6.4 cents, while the national average is 8.5 cents.
tva.gov/abouttva/keyfacts.htm#ratescompare
Affordable Utilities
Today, with all of the energy supply problems and high costs, utilities are a key issue for businesses and corporations. Russellville electricity is produced and distributed by the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) which offers a high level of reliability at incredibly competitive rates. Average retail electricity costs in the TVA region are 22% lower than the national average. In 2000, TVA met a record power demand of 29,344 megawatts without difficulty. Power interruptions were less than 8 minutes per customer per year for TVA as compared to the National Average of 8-9 hours per customer per year in 1999, according to Financial Times. Would down time affect your business?
industrialboard.com/advant.html
As far as Medicare goes, it is now a common fallacy to say, “that yes, their administrative costs are 2 percent, but that doesn’t count the cost of what doctors pay to fill out the paper work.â€
You can find many links using the above argument. Of course if they DO use that argument, wouldn’t it be fair to include the cost to Doctors of filling out the much MORE paperwork that they have to meet HMO requirements
Fast Facts
The Medicare population
-
Medicare covers 41 million Americans, including 35 million people over age 65 and 6 million people under age 65 who have Medicare based on disability or End-Stage Renal Disease (ESRD). 1 The total Medicare population is projected to grow to 46 million in 2010, 61 million in 2020 and 77 million in 2030. 2
-
Roughly four in ten people with Medicare have incomes below 150 percent of the federal poverty level (in 2004, $13,965 for singles and $18,735 for couples). 3 Nearly 65 percent of people with Medicare had incomes beneath $25,000 in 2002. 4
Health costs -
On average, older Americans today spend approximately 22 percent of their disposable income on health care costs. 5 In 1970, the typical older adult spent 11 percent of her income on health care costs.
-
Per capita expenditures increase by more than $1,000 for each age group over 65: in 2003, per capita expenditures were $3,284 for people ages 65 to 74, $4,983 for people 75 to 84 and $6,552 for people 85 and older. Per capita expenditures for people under age 65 with Medicare due to disability were $4,814. 6
Consequences of inadequate health coverage -
People with Medicare who have no drug coverage are nearly three times more likely than people with Medicare who have drug coverage to go without needed prescription drugs. Individuals without drug coverage are also significantly more likely to skip medicine doses or spend less on basic needs to afford medicines.7
-
Nearly half of uninsured adults postpone seeking medical care, and over a third of uninsured adults forgo needed care. Adults without health insurance are less likely to have a regular doctor, and more likely to rely on emergency rooms and free clinics for their care.8
Coverage for people with disabilities -
Before gaining Medicare coverage, people with disabilities must first receive Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) for 24 months.9 Of the 1.3 million Americans in this 24-month waiting period for Medicare, close to 400,000 are completely uninsured. 10 Learn More
-
Death rates among SSDI recipients are highest during their first 24 months of receiving SSDI.11
-
Current interpretation of federal law limits Medicare coverage of durable medical equipment, such as wheelchairs, to devices individuals need to function inside their homes.12 Learn More
Prescription drug prices -
In 2002, Americans paid 67 percent more than Canadians did for patented drug products.13 Learn More
-
In 2003, total prescription drug costs for people with Medicare were $95 billion ($2,318 per person). The Congressional Budget Office estimates that, in 2003, 16 percent of people with Medicare (6.56 million individuals) had prescription drug costs exceeding $4,000. On average, individuals with Medicare spent $996 (43 percent) of these prescription drug costs out of pocket. By 2013, annual total prescription drug costs for people with Medicare are expected to grow to $284 billion, for a 10-year (2004-2013) total of $1.8 trillion.14
-
Whereas older Americans’ Social Security checks increased by 2.6 percent in 2002, the average price of the 50 drugs used most by older Americans increased by 6 percent.15
Medicare private plans -
The number of enrollees in Medicare private plans has dropped by 27 percent since 2000, from 6.3 million (16 percent of people with Medicare) to 4.6 million (11 percent of people with Medicare) in 2004.16
-
The number of Medicare private plans available has dropped by nearly 60 percent since 1998, from 346 plans to 145 plans in 2004.17
-
In 2004, 60 percent of people with Medicare have access to a private plan, down from 71 percent in 1999.18
-
Between 1999 and the beginning of 2003, Medicare private plans ended coverage for 2.4 million members.19
-
Private plans typically have administrative costs eight to ten times that of Original Medicare. Whereas Medicare uses less than 2 percent of funds for administrative costs, Medicare private plans, on average, use 15 percent of funds for administrative costs.20, 21
-
Focus groups reveal that older Americans are “very satisfied" with Original Medicare, and view notions of privatizing Medicare—that is, shifting control over payment of insurance benefits to HMOs and other private corporations—“very negatively." 22 Learn More
-
The 2003 Medicare reform law will result in an estimated $46 billion increase in payments to Medicare private plans.23
Featured Link: Medicare Fact Sheets from the Kaiser Family Foundation
1 “Medicare at a Glance," Kaiser Family Foundation, March 2004.
2 “Data Book: Health Care Spending and the Medicare Program," MedPAC, June 2003.
3 “Medicare at a Glance," Kaiser Family Foundation, March 2004.
4 “Program Information on Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and other Programs," Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, June 2002.
5 “Medicare at a Glance," Kaiser Family Foundation, March 2004.
6 “Data Book: Health Care Spending and the Medicare Program," MedPAC, June 2003.
7 Safran et al., “Prescription Drug Coverage And Seniors: How Well Are States Closing The Gap," Health Affairs web exclusive, July 31, 2002.
8 “2003 Health Insurance Survey," Kaiser Family Foundation, September 2003.
9 42 U.S.C. § 426(b)
10 Dale & Verdier, Commonwealth Fund, July 2003.
11 Mauney, American Medical Association, June 2002.
12 42 U.S.C. § 1395x(n)
13 “Annual Report," Canadian Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, 2002.
14 “Medicare and Prescription Drugs," Kaiser Family Foundation, April 2003.
15 Brown & Doyle, “Medicare Index," New York Times, January 28, 2004
16 “Medicare Advantage," Kaiser Family Foundation, March 2004.
17 Ibid.
18 “Medicare Fact Sheet: Medicare Advantage,†Kaiser Family Foundation, March 2004.
19 “Medicare Privatization," Public Citizen, February 2003.
20 “Medicare Administrative Expenditures as a Percentage of Medicare Benefit Payments, 1979-2000," Medicare Chartbook, 2nd ed., Kaiser Family Foundation, Fall 2001.
21 Inspector General, Department of Health and Human Services, “Adequacy of Medicare’s Managed Care Payments After the Balanced Budget Act of 1997," September 2000.
22 “Medicare and Prescription Drug Focus Groups Summary Report," Peter D. Hart Research Associates, July 2001.
23 Pear, “Medicare Actuary Gives Wanted Data to Congress," New York Times, March 20, 2004.
medicarerights.org/mainconte … facts.html
“Currently, Medicare incurs only 2% for administrative costs and does not need to advertise or pay commissions. According to Bernstein, private insurance spends considerably more on advertising and management. Administrative costs run as high as 30% because providers and insurers have to employ large staffs to cope with thousands of different plans for billions of billings a yearâ€
news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4981.html
I made statements. You have a right to ask for “proof.”
Now you have it.
[/quote]
I am not a Socialist, although, all things being equal, Socialism is better than Capitalism.
I might note for example that the recent scandal at Walter Reed, is a result of privatising the staff. That my friends in the military regard privatising the support they recieve as ludicrous, but I will leave you to defend the indefenisible.
Dave
hahaha i wanted a discussion that leads to “how to act if you’re a westerner outside the west”. i didn’t want that to sound like a prison synonym for sodomy 
it’s not the robin hood mentality, i’m not the greatest fan of the masses in the sense that i don’t believe that they do themselves much good( but that’s a different debate), it’s a natural questioning of “why is that guy who didn’t do anything and cheated get the roast why the rest eat beef jerky”. i think it’s natural to question and challenge artificially achieved power and authority
Interesting. I note that, as I said, there are power companies cheaper than TVA. And the one in the PDF that you link to, is “Seattle City Light,” which is also a publicly owned (Socialist, 
) company.
Dave
let’s answer the question:
socialism is better for society as a whole and for the majority. capitalism is better for the oligarchy( which isn’t necessarily constituted by the most “able”).
Without even taking sides, the thing that really irks me is when people say that socialism stifles creativity and innovation. This is a totally baseless claim. Can people not create their own motivations if one is not forced upon them?
is it because you view it as a “good for all, heroic, nice thing” to do? it’s wrong that you equated it to robin hood, altho it can be compared
also you’re confusing socialism with communism( the so called communism of the USSR). what do you even mean with creativity? soviet artists were superior to american artists in every aspect( capitalist art= andy warhol, capitalist culture= pornography and MTV 
)
i don’t think you’ve had the opportunity to see soviet art in america
“stealing from the rich” the rich stole from society
anw ill continue this discussion tomorrow(today) it’s 4.33 am where i live
I’m under the impression that we LIVE under Capitalism. Such being the case, there is no huge list HERE. However, I AM giving you examples.
[/quote]
[/b]I see no examples.[/b]
How do TVA’s rates compare with those of other power companies?
TVA electricity costs less than most electricity produced around the nation. For residents in the TVA region, the average cost of one kilowatt-hour — the amount of electricity it takes to burn ten 100-watt light bulbs for one hour — is 6.4 cents, while the national average is 8.5 cents.
tva.gov/abouttva/keyfacts.htm#ratescompare
Affordable Utilities
Today, with all of the energy supply problems and high costs, utilities are a key issue for businesses and corporations. Russellville electricity is produced and distributed by the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) which offers a high level of reliability at incredibly competitive rates. Average retail electricity costs in the TVA region are 22% lower than the national average. In 2000, TVA met a record power demand of 29,344 megawatts without difficulty. Power interruptions were less than 8 minutes per customer per year for TVA as compared to the National Average of 8-9 hours per customer per year in 1999, according to Financial Times. Would down time affect your business?
industrialboard.com/advant.html
comparing apples and oranges
besides leftist propaganda?
you still have not provided any examples.
I made statements. You have a right to ask for “proof.”
Now you have it.
you have proven nothing.
[/quote]
I am not a Socialist, although, all things being equal, Socialism is better than Capitalism.
I might note for example that the recent scandal at Walter Reed, is a result of privatising the staff.
that is an offensive fucking lie.
That my friends in the military regard privatising the support they recieve as ludicrous, but I will leave you to defend the indefenisible.
Dave
[/quote]
all you can do is lie about capitalism.
-Imp
Surely, all that matters is your rational-self interest. Choose, which one will benefit you in the long term.
Why do the left always know what is good for people? If millions of people choose porn and MTV, then it must be good, no? I guess only the Socialist Center for Entertainment and Arts knows what is good.
Generally, Capitalism is superior only because the individual is what counts and not the masses.
BTW: I read something about the health care in the UK. Don’t know that guy you said but I doubt our health care system should be used to support socialism. It has the lowest rate for cancer detection and many other things that I can’t think of from my head in Europe. Many people I know have gone to France and Holland because they didn’t want to wait 1 year for treatment. Doctors are underpaid and over worked. I don’t remember the exact number but about 60,000 foreign nurses are currently working for the NHS. I guess the wages and conditions are too low.
timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a … 056942.ece
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/251376.stm
There are many more articles too. Trust me I have used it, the whole system is in melt down. I doubt highly that the USA is doing worse.
Funny, we are having the exact same problem with nursing here in the US with our privatized health care system. Perhaps there is more to this topic than socialized vs privatized health care.
Residents of La La Land always leave me in awe. They ask for proof, and when you give it to them, they call it “Leftist Propaganda,†or they call it “Lies.â€
(Impenitent has not made the following statment, just a bit of a rant on my part) Respectable conservatives who admit errors and faults are transformed into leftists or worse - So the Iraq Study Group, became “Surrender Monkeys,†and Ed Meese (ED MEESE?) become a leftist bush hater -
Back on topic.
Bush privatised services at Walter Reed Hospital and under him, support Services were outsourced. This becomes, In Impenitents words, “that is an offensive fucking lieâ€
No sorry, it’s just the simple truth. Of course “Army TImes†is probably run by Al Qaeda.
armytimes.com/news/2007/03/W … nsubpoena/
TVA produces power cheaper than any other company (except for other government owned companies) What does that transform into according to Impenitent? “Apples and Oranges,†is his weighty rebuttal.
YodaJosh provides this link:
tva.gov/finance/info/pdf/cost_price.pdf
I assume Impenitent means that government electrons are different than non government electrons?
I tell him that the administrative costs of Medicare are 2 percent. Leftist propaganda? No one disputes this number. Right wing sites ADD to this that this doesn’t count the “hidden administrative costs of Medicare.â€
What are these hidden costs? They are the costs to the individual doctor. But even if we take this as a legitimate argument, these same sites admit that that would bring the administrative costs of Medicare up to FIVE PERCENT.
This is a rebuttal?
He tells me that UPS is better than the post office? But UPS is not required to deliver to every part of the country. If they did, they would lose money. I provide him with examples of places they cannot deliver to. This is also Leftist propaganda, or is he saying that some people are not deserving of mail?
I tell him that The US Post Office charges 39 cents for a letter, and he replies that UPS “charges by Weight.â€
Well, yes they do, by weight, and by zone. And of course minimum charge is for a one pound “letter.â€
So, for five day ground, a one pound letter will cost you from between, $4.20 to $20.67
How do I know this? I went to the UPS site, and they filled me with left wing propaganda
ups.com/media/en/2008_daily_rates.pdf
Impenitent doesn’t seem to understand the rules of discussion. I don’t object to him asking for “proof,†And now I and others have given him proof - He dismisses this as propaganda?
Sorry, no, that wont do at all - He NOW is obligated to prove my sources wrong. He has to prove that UPS delivers everywhere, and cheaper than the government.
He now has to prove that private power companies are Cheaper than government run ones. He now has to prove that Bush DIDN’T privatise support services at the VA.
This is the way debate runs. He has to discredit my posts with PROOF.
And it might help matters if he could discuss these questions in a civil manner.
Dave
[/b]I see no examples.[/b]
How do TVA’s rates compare with those of other power companies?
TVA electricity costs less than most electricity produced around the nation. For residents in the TVA region, the average cost of one kilowatt-hour — the amount of electricity it takes to burn ten 100-watt light bulbs for one hour — is 6.4 cents, while the national average is 8.5 cents.
tva.gov/abouttva/keyfacts.htm#ratescompare
Affordable Utilities
Today, with all of the energy supply problems and high costs, utilities are a key issue for businesses and corporations. Russellville electricity is produced and distributed by the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) which offers a high level of reliability at incredibly competitive rates. Average retail electricity costs in the TVA region are 22% lower than the national average. In 2000, TVA met a record power demand of 29,344 megawatts without difficulty. Power interruptions were less than 8 minutes per customer per year for TVA as compared to the National Average of 8-9 hours per customer per year in 1999, according to Financial Times. Would down time affect your business?
industrialboard.com/advant.html
comparing apples and oranges
besides leftist propaganda?
you still have not provided any examples.
I made statements. You have a right to ask for “proof.”
Now you have it.
you have proven nothing.
[/quote]
I am not a Socialist, although, all things being equal, Socialism is better than Capitalism.
I might note for example that the recent scandal at Walter Reed, is a result of privatising the staff.
that is an offensive fucking lie.
That my friends in the military regard privatising the support they recieve as ludicrous, but I will leave you to defend the indefenisible.
Dave
[/quote]
all you can do is lie about capitalism.
-Imp
[/quote]
Adressed to the OP
Socialism Vs. Capitalism, both are great when on paper. Throw in a handful of humans it still is, throw in a bucket full of humans they start breaking down. Throw in a whole society and your dog would run from both yipping and screaming with its tail between its leg. Only humans can really screw up a good thing to such proportions and call either good.
Perhaps the better question is which gives you the most opportunities to become the best human you wish to be, meaing fullfilling your dreams, education, living comfortable etc… Well this would depend upon your private ambitions, because obviously both have corruption windows and both allow some to achieve a good life. I suppose it all just depends upon the person how they feel what they want and where they wish to be.
Lets look at migration too.
How many people leave/left communist countries to live in a capitalist country and how many people leave/left a capitalist country to live in a communist country per year over a two or three decade period?
Find that answer and you may just have a complete answer.
In my opinion, the “proper” question should be phrased, “How many people leave totalitarian societies for free ones?”
Neither Capitalism or Socialism (we’ve never had a Communist society) are inherently free or inherently dictatorial. Leftists find it fashionable to declare that the Soviet Union wasn’t “really” a socialist society, just as rightists declare that Italy or Germany weren’t “really” Capitalist. Sorry, no they were respectively Socialist or Capitalist. At least by the scientific definitions of “who owned the means of production?”
The case of China is interesting, in and of itself. It went from being a Socialist dictatorship to being a Capitalist dictatorship, without anyone even noticing - Least of all the OP.
Dave
Could not agree more. People have a tough time separating economic policy from social policy. While they seem to be intertwined at some level, they are not necessarily bound. Many uninformed people associate communism/socialism with totalitarianism, while Marx himself said that Democracy is not only still possible in a communist society, it is preferable
China is whole other subject, and an interesting one, yes. I think the upcoming Olympic games will shed a lot of light on state of China. For the most part, in America, we don’t get to see much of what goes on there. Whether that’s by China’s choice, or by our own media and govt’s choice, I’m not sure
Yes.
According to the CIA’s World Factbook, China’s government is described as a “Communist State,” but when you turn to their analysis of their economy, it becomes quite clear that thay have transforrmed themselves into a Fascist State.
cia.gov/library/publication … os/ch.html
Dave
Dave while I agree about Totalitarian, that was not part of the OP. It was a question of the economics; Socialism and Capitalism. Totalitarian Gov’t can be either/or. A totalitarian Gov’t is often repressive or suppresive. Oddly enough dictators that do that are not able to see that such actions are going to be self defeating in the long run. If one could get a totalitarian form of gov’t that is not suppressive or reppressive, it would be quite successful if it does not deteroriate into corruption or get split up into civil wars once the leader/s dies or gets killed or quit.
The question of China is up in the air on different levels. We just don’t know enough because its borders are tightly secured and the information that comes out is still highly questionable; what we see is it biased, manipulated, controlled? We don’t know yet. the olymics might shed some light, but, not much I think. None that I would really trust to be cold hard fact.
I would rather trust China than trust North Korea any day. NK is just a bit too much of someting or other. That place is to tightly controlled. A country that controls like that is bad news.