I didn’t suggest that world, you did (not fact-checking you) instead of responding to what I actually said, so… you wanna try again?
I did express similar disgust towards God (whom I did not believe exists) in the past without modifying my eating habits. I don’t think it is unloving/murder to only kill for food and protecting the defenseless.
God has introduced It Self many times, but because some people believe and insist God has a penis and is a “him”, they completely MISS the introduction.
But they are absolutely universal. Just because some people have not yet realised something, and so have not yet caught up, this does NOT mean that their ‘current’ assumptions or beliefs are correct.
Does ‘nothing’ include one’s mom or dad?
And 100% of all new species that will come to exist on this planet will come to exist.
Did their coming into existence and their existence show any sort of love, ethics, morals and caring at all?
But the Universe was NOT created. The Universe is in Creation, always.
Also, none of those apply to the Universe It Self.
These things apply to the Being It Self.
When ‘you’ talk STUPID like this, ‘we’ get nowhere.
WHY would ANY one think ‘love’, itself, was the purpose of the Universe to even begin with?
Well this was blatantly obvious, especially with those eight definitions that you provided here.
Here is another prime example of when one holds onto a belief they can only “see” some things only.
Until ‘you’ do KNOW the very Nature of the Creator It Self, it is always wise to be open to the very fact that It might exist.
I addressed 3 separate things below your quote, this was just one of them. The proposition that a creation myth of a god can be also attributed to a trauma response.
I feel like i addressed what you said. If not, i apologize, i do not see what i missed. Could you elaborate?
Well that is the thing, isnt it?
If living beings having to kill eachother is included in the concept of love, then we might be having a very different understanding of what love means.
But its very hard to imagine that a universe in which living beings are forced to murder eachother perpetually just for the sake of staying alive a little longer (and then dieing anyway) is built around the idea of • Agape: Unconditional, selfless, and universal love for all people.
I know only the fact of my ignorance.
But that being said, if i wanted to construct an entire reality based on unconditional and all encompassing love, i would (among the many) not create a death march competition in it that will not have a winner either way, because everyone dies anyway, resulting simply in a perpetual cycle of bloodbath and death with all living beings trying to “out fuck” the extinction of their own species, trying to reproduce faster than they are dieing off.
Well…
I am not god.
I dont know.
I know only what i know.
And believing, absolutely, that something is a myth, before you have proof, can also be attributed to a trauma response, and to a trauma that you clearly have.
But no sensible human being would consider that killing a living thing is what ‘love’ means. ‘Trying to’ introduce this obvious Falsehood is just a straw man.
Necessary killing for survival is how Life and living actually works. What is Wrong or upsetting about this? Unless, of course, one foolishly thought or believed that they could live forever.
What?
What has the unconditional, selfless, and universal love for say one’s child or all human beings got to do with absolutely anything regarding survival itself.
Every human being can very simply and easily survive while still having unconditional or True ‘love’ for one another.
Again, back to ‘there has to be a winner’ attitude and perspective.
Once more, when everyone is living in Peace and Harmony with one another, as One, then EVERY one is a so-called ‘winner’. (That is; if there ‘has to be’ one.)
Sounds like ‘you’ are believing that living for ever is some sort of goal here or that ‘you’ want to live forever, otherwise ‘you’ have not ‘won’ something.
Here is another prime example of APE-thinking.
If ‘you’ do NOT know the answer to the question, ‘Who am ‘I’?’ then how do ‘you’ know that ‘I’ am not God, exactly?
S/he has a good point, Nulla. We need a contrast between merely surviving and real life. We need what love looks like in practice. There are different levels of love, as you pointed out. All of them are ordered by the agape (self-sacrificial gift) version. If we don’t have the language for self-sacrifice or risk-to-survival-related gift, how do you propose we learn/recognize (teach/show…) agape love?
[This isn’t even a conversation I want to have, to be perfectly honest. So I’m bracketing it. If that animal is going to stop feeling pain after you humanely take its life (as humanely as possible)… its suffering is not going to last forever. If it could think the way we think, perhaps it would volunteer its life? We can recognize and appreciate its contribution, even if it can’t voluntarily think the way we think. Surely that is a far cry from life-denying violence?]
We dont need anything.
If i accept the fact of a god and creator, then that means it can create as it pleases.
I can take a canvas, and i can paint my children with all that knowledge intact.
I can paint them to never suffer, never be evil, never cause harm, never experience need or anything else.
So the answer to the question
is that our creator created this problem to begin with.
How do i propose we do anything? Thats entirely the wrong question
The question is why were we made to not understand/recognize agape right out the box.
I dont think most people fundamentally understand what they propose when they talk about god.
Everyone is lost in nitty gritty causality, thinking that we have to do this to get to that.
Thats not how any of this works.
The writer of the story is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and because of that, the creator has/is omnificence
The responsibility of god cannot be circumvented in any shape or form.
The story you write is beholdent to you.
There is no way in ANY form that you are not responsible for all the outcomes in the story, as the writer. You are responsible for all the characters being the way they are, for all they know or dont know, for all their shortcomings and designs, for the setting, world and it’s laws and rules as well.
There is no point in asking me
Instead ask god why you were made without it. Why you were made having to learn and recognize it. Why you were instead made to be an entertainment of struggle, blood and death.
I do not mix with the idea of a god.
If i accept that a god exists, then i will flip every card that is connected to it’s name.
And in this reality, there is no card that would not be connected to the writer of the story.
Asking questions about learning, recognizing, growing, striving… they only make sense if there is no god. They only make sense if we are here on our own, left to our own devices to do or die.
If thats not the case, then the entire concept is upside down cause you have been made to not know, and from there, only more questions will come, all of them pointing to one single responsible entity, and none of it’s actions can be described in a fashion that would be motivated by love or agape.
Omnificience is the only form of causality that binds the writer. That he is the source of causality.
And thus, responsible for everything that happens.
I wouldn’t say that we were made without it if we were made able to learn to recognize it. The baseline of the golden rule is transcultural. The fact that we can defy it or go above and beyond it is what makes it possible to learn to recognize agape/grace—so that love could be a choice.
So is that your picture of the creator on the cross? We are co-creators, so we need to take up our cross.
Even if thats true, the problem itself exists because the creator made it.
Giving the choice to your created subjects to swim or drown does not absolve you from having thrown them into the ocean in the first place.
Even if human beings have free will, the story is set by the author, and because of that, there will be always circumstantial or structural determinism.
The author’s responsibility cannot be circumvented.
We are the way we are because we have been made to be such, and there is no way around this statement or problem.
This is the issue of a loving god.
How is the creator of all your problems, faults and suffering… loving?
I edited my last post while you were replying to it. It’s the part you didn’t quote. It answers your reply.
If i wrote a story about sinners and sinful human beings (1) and then wrote myself into the story as a character (2), then decided to make this wonderful drama and theatrics about my character being killed and “sacrificing” itself to somehow absolve these humans of what i pronounced to be sinful (3) but also wrote them to be sinful (4)…
Me who will never die and thus not have to sacrifice anything
Me who created an avatar to play out some drama
Me who gave my subjects their sins in the first place and then decided to absolve them of what i proclaimed to be sins
What would that make me?
Are there even words in the english language that are sufficient to explain and portray what i have done to my own children in this setting?
Having intentionally created them to be stunted, and then use them for a show of playing benevolent god in front of them, absolving them of sins i gave to them in the first place… playing out this grand scene of having sacrificed nothing because the thing i wrote and painted in there was at best a fictional avatar from my standpoint…
Are there words in the english language that could describe what that’d make me?
What i have done in this setting to my children?
Cause a pathologically insane sociopathic abuser predator and sadist is not even a single percent of what that’d make me.
He feels all the feelings or he couldn’t have involved them in the universe. He is no mere avatar. He is impassibly passionate. Uh oh — I referred to Jesus as a male. Because he is/was one and he did have a (circumcised) penis.
And say it’s you, and your kids still beat themselves up about stuff even though you died to prove you love them despite their crap. Are your kids…slow??? Maybe you should own that? Oh, you did? OK.
If the ‘we’ word here refers to human beings, then ‘we’ certainly do ‘need’ some things; that is, of course, if ‘we’ want to stay alive and keep living. ‘We’ ‘need’ clean enough air and water, some nutrients, and ‘love’.
If anyone believes or accepts that there is something outside of the Universe, It Self, then that means that ‘that one’ does NOT think very clearly. (Or, that they define and use the word ‘Universe’ in ‘a way’ ‘we’ have to ‘now’ find another word to replace the word ‘Universe’ with what ‘Universe’ used to mean.)
If ‘you’ really want to go here and anthropomorphise God, It Self, then God does NOT only care ‘for some’, only, like ‘you’ and some other adults do. If ‘you’ want to believe that God ‘considers’, then it ‘considers’ every thing as One, Everything.
Human beings evolved into being created with the ability to ‘think and choose’ for “themselves”, while also having the instinctual Knowing of what is Right and Wrong, in Life.
Now, ‘you’ adults are absolutely free to do what is Right, or Wrong, in Life, and if ‘you’ have even created the word ‘evil’, then ‘you’ Know what is actually Wrong, in Life. Absolutely NOTHING forces ‘you’ adults to do Wrong, but if ‘you’ choose to do so, then so be it. The only ones who Truly suffer from ‘your’ continued Wrong doing are ‘your children’.
So, if ‘you’ adults do not want ‘your children’ to suffer, never be ‘evil’, never cause ‘harm’, or never experience any of these things, then just STOP doing the very things that cause all of these.
But there is, literally, NO ‘problem’ here AT ALL.
What do you even imagine is or could be a ‘problem’ here?
When ‘you’ say and write, “our creator”, are ‘you’ referring to something that created ‘us’, or ‘this Universe’, which some call “our Universe”, or something else?
Human beings creator, it could be said and argued, is ‘the earth’, itself, Whereas, the creator of the Universe is, contrary to popular belief, will in the days this is being written anyway, is certainly NOT something outside of the Universe, It Self
Human beings did not understand/recognize absolutely ANY thing, other than how to live. Exactly like EVERY other thing ‘understands/recognises’.
Now, if ‘you’ are questioning why human beings evolved into being created not understanding/recognising,
then is this not blatantly obvious?
Human beings did not evolve created understanding/recognising ALL things, like how to love one another unconditionally; in other words, not understanding/recognising T.R.U.E. L.O.V.E with and for absolutely everyone, because when they evolved into being created they just lived in relatively a very small group, which, coincidently, they most likely did ‘love’ - care for and protect - one another anyway.
And ‘you’ are living proof and a prime example of this very thing.
So, how do things work, exactly?
If ‘we’ do NOT ‘have to’ do something to get something else, then how, exactly, can ‘we’ get it?
Okay, but so what?
The so-called “writer” has created ‘you’ human beings with the ability to choose to think and do absolutely whatever ‘you’ like and want to do. Clearly, there is NO ‘problem’ NOR issue at all here so far.
What do ‘you’ mean by ‘responsibility’ here, exactly?
‘you’ have been provided with the ability to ‘look at’ and ‘see’ things in absolutely any way ‘you’ like and choose to. So, if ‘you’ do NOT want to take responsibility for ‘your OWN choices’, then so be it. ‘you’, again, were provide with the absolute freedom to choose to NOT to.
If the ‘writer’ provides the ‘characters’ with absolute freedom to think and do whatever they want, then ‘the story’ WILL unfold in whatever way ‘the characters’ want things to play out. Also, and do not forget, the ‘writer’ KNOWS what WILL ‘play out’ and eventuate anyway.
See, ‘the characters’ universally all began wanting and desiring to live in Peace and Harmony with one another, as One. So, once they learn and understand HOW TO, then they can and WILL create ‘the world’ that they Truly ALL want and desire for “themselves”.
What ‘you’ just said and claimed here is like ‘you’ want some one/thing else to do things ‘for you’.
And do NOT forget, also with the ability to choose.
‘you’ were also made without recognising/knowing anything else, except how to live. But this NEVER stopped ‘you’ human beings learning, recognising, understanding, and knowing more and more things.
Because ‘you’ learn and understand FAR MORE through ‘personal experiences’.
Anyone can be ‘told something’, but only from personally experiencing something one can and does a far better knowledge and understanding ‘about it’.
If there were no so-called “death”, then ‘you’ would NOT be HERE observing, experiencing, reflecting, and discussing.
Also, ‘struggle’ and ‘blood’ are only things created by adults and some other animals only. ‘you’ one does NOT want to observe and witness of animals killing other animals, then just do NOT watch it.
Obviously, in the days when this is being written, ‘you’ adult human beings do NOT have to partake in the killing of any animals and ‘you’ certainly do not have to watch others doing this, so there is NO actually so-called ‘entertainment’ here; unless, of course, that is something ‘you’ ‘want to’ and freely choose to observe and/or partake in.
I think NO one else mixes with your personal idea of ‘god’ here as well.
‘you’ will ‘flip every card’ to fit ‘your own narrative and story’, correct?
Including ‘your own freely made-up created story’ here as well, right?
To you, in your own made-up story.
‘you’ are here, in this One and Universe, and if ‘you’ want to consider ‘we are here on our own’, then so be it. That is ‘your story’.
As for, “left our own devices to do or die”, obviously ‘you’ are going to so-call “die” no matter what, and why claim that ‘we are left to our own devices’ if and when ‘you’ want to blame some one/thing else and/or want some one/thing else to take responsibility ‘for you’ and what ‘you’ do or do not do or what ‘you’ already know and understand or do not already know and understand, exactly?
But ‘you’ were not born, created, nor conceived to ‘not know’, ‘you’ were just born, created, or conceived with ‘not already consciously knowing’. Again, for the very blatant reasons.
There is NO “he” here. Until human beings get this most ridiculuous and absurd falsehood out of ‘their stories’ they can NOT even really begin to SEE and KNOW the actual Truths here.
AGAIN, ‘this one’ as an adult has chosen, freely, to ‘look at’ and ‘see’ things in a very particular, but then wants some one/thing to take responsibility for ‘the way’ it has CHOSEN to ‘look at’ and ‘see’ things.
Human beings are NOT born already knowing NOR recognising EVERY thing. However, human beings are born with the ability to learn, understand, and reason any and every thing.
I really hope you have something to say about the context you ripped that out out of.
Yes, there are no childhood and adult cancers. No, floods handicapping and killing one’s family members. No aging. I assuming others can think of the many examples that do not fit the above model.
So either all of that means something because love is an actual situation, or it’s all just senseless absurdity and you have no ground to think it’s evil/unfortunate/God‘s fault (and something they can redeem).
Why does this sound like literally every man I’ve ever talked to that is just going around causing a bunch of mayhem and saying everything‘s gonna be fine?
Again, ‘this one’ keeps speaking about some so-called ‘problem’ here but does NOT say what ‘it’ is, exactly?
Also, ‘you’ created ‘your children’, are ‘you’ responsible for what they do in their later life (or adulthood)?
Were ‘your children’ created with what ‘you’ are expecting ‘god’ to have created ‘you with’?
Do ‘your children’ KNOW everything and only do what is Right, in Life? After all, ‘you’ created them, and you have even had years of direct experience ‘teaching them’.
Have ‘you’ told ‘your children’ what to do and what not to do? Have they, at times, NOT ‘listened to you’, and have done the opposite?
Could ‘you’, sometimes, be doing the EXACT SAME thing/s?
For example, could there be an ‘inner voice’ telling ‘you’ what is Right and what is Wrong, in Life, but ‘you’ do NOT ‘listen to it’, and just do or not do what ‘you’ want and prefer instead?
Can ‘you’ SCREAM at ‘your children’, but ‘they’ still do NOT ‘listen to you’. Parents ARE responsibility for ‘their children’, and adults can tell children/others absolutely anything and guide them to absolutely anything but NO one can ‘make’ NOR ‘force’ another ‘to listen’ NOR ‘to follow’.
Again, there is NO ‘problem’, and it does NOT matter how many times ‘you’ ALLUDE to there being ‘a problem’ somewhere; this NEVER means that there is an ‘actual problem’ anywhere.
Now, let ‘us’ take ‘this claim’ that ‘we’ are ‘because we have been made to be such’, and agree with and accept that ‘this claim’ is Correct. So, ‘we’, human beings, are born with the ability to learn, understand, and reason any and every thing, and with the ability to choose.
I am not sure what “il_nulla” wants or expects now?
Does “il_nulla” wish or want to be created in some other way?
Once more, only children, or those who have not yet 'grown up and matured, so-call ‘suffer’, and only ‘suffer’ because of what adult human beings do or do not do and have created.
So, what are ‘your’ problems, faults, and suffering that ‘you’ are ‘trying to’ blame on some one/thing, exactly?
Not that a ‘person’ like ‘you’ would ever be open and honest about and answer and clarify.
Misunderstood, and very misunderstood.
Okay, but ‘you’ would still be misunderstood.
As ‘you’ are literally demonstrating and proving here.
Is there something Wrong with referring to a male human being as a “he”?