Something from Nothing vs. Order from Chaos

One of the deepest questions modern philosophical thought can ask is: How do we get something from nothing? How did this universe, supposedly spawned from the Big Bang, come from what could only be consider nothing?

It occurred to me a while back that this wasn’t always the question man asked, or that this question wasn’t always phrased in terms of something coming from nothing. In the vast majority of ancient religious texts, creation myths are put in terms of order coming from chaos. But chaos is very different from nothingness, at least to the modern way of thinking. So it raises the question: when did order from chaos turn into something from nothing? And why?

My thought process on this question went like this: my not being a scholar or historian on ancient religious texts notwithstanding, it seems to me that man stopped thinking in terms of order from chaos around the time when Christianity became a dominant world religion. The creation myth in Christianity is that before the world, before existence, there was only God. And God one day decided to create the world. So at least with Christianity, we have an intermediating creation narrative: world from God. So what was originally a question of order from chaos became a question of world from God, and then finally a question of something from nothing.

How world from God became something from nothing isn’t a mystery. It’s clearly laid out in history. Science, becoming ever more antagonistic with religion from the Enlightenment era onwards, became more and more capable of casting doubt in people’s minds about God’s existence. So if you take world from God, and shave off God, you get world from nothing, or something from nothing.

But just because Christianity might have been the intermediary link between order from chaos and something from nothing, that doesn’t explain how order from chaos became world from God. So the question then becomes: how did chaos become God? Is chaos God?

Well, one way to think about it is, chaos is everything-ness… every possible thing and its opposite. Everything you can imagine. Everything you can’t imagine. It is light and dark, good and evil, black and white, male and female, up and down, etc., etc., etc. It is all things at once and all opposite things clashing together with all things, and at the same time harmoniously interleaved with all things. It is the impossible made possible, contradictions all simultaneously true, and also simultaneously false. Is it possible that this also describes the mind of God? Is God just everythingness? Not just the things that exist, but all potential? Isn’t God just the infinite? Boundlessness? Everything that exists and beyond?

Maybe. But there is a more interesting implication that comes from this–not so much that chaos is God but that chaos could be defined in this way–everything that exists along with everything that doesn’t, all possibilities with all impossibilities, all truths and their opposites–and that is that the ancients saw creation in the exact opposite way as we do. Whereas we look at it as something from nothing, they looked at it as something from everything. It’s almost as if they saw the beginnings of all things as more than the world they found themselves in. And somehow, in some way, certain things got shaved off of chaos leaving behind order. Order is, after all, certain things and not other things, certain ways things work as opposed to other ways, made of these substances but not those, governed by natural laws and not magic. Things fall to the ground. They do not fall up. Water makes things wet, not dry. When a man is alive, he is not dead. You don’t have opposites coexisting at the same time. You don’t have propositions and their negations, facts and fiction, both being true at the same time. ← That’s order, that’s predictability. It is stability. It is security. It’s almost as if the ancients were oriented to explain existence in terms of why we have the particular order we do and not a chaotic mélange of all possibilities–as if the default way of things, if it weren’t for order, would be chaos–that is, order plus all alternative orders, order coexisting with more than itself, not less, and therefore indistinguishable from everything else in this messy tapestry of chaos.

If this is true, we only arrived at something from nothing by first taking chaos–that is, the paradoxical marriage of all things and their opposites–and encapsulating it into a monotheistic creator God, and then dispensing with it by way of a historical trajectory into science and secularism.

So did we really do a full 180 on the question of the universe’s origin? Did we go from asking how we get something from everything to asking how we get something from nothing?

Me and my friend Ethan talked about a reality where a purely positive cosmos collided with a purely negative cosmos forming a dualistic hibred reality that we live in today.

I see chaos as a phase. It is a something. The void comes before chaos i think.

The christian God is the ultimate. Ultimacy is its own theory, with its own strengths and weaknesses.

That’s what you get when you use mixed beliefs as a context.

God became the source of chaos, because he is considered the source of all reality.

Origination is only bound within the dimension of time.
Other dimensions may not need a beginning.
One kind of dimension can give birth to another kind of dimension.
Dimensions are forms of space.
And the void is infinite empty space.
So the void can be used to create dimensions.
I think…

A purely positive cosmos and a purely negative cosmos, you say. What does positive and negative means here?

So as you would have it, it goes: chaos from nothing, and something from chaos. Very interesting. But I think it all spins on what the word “nothing” connotes. Is it an actual “thing”? Is it a real state that reality (or lack thereof) can exist in? Or does it just mean: there wasn’t anything before X. X was always the first thing.

A theory of ultimacy? What is this theory, Dan?

Mixed beliefs as in theism mixed with atheism? Is the argument that when you mix different belief systems, the result is that those tenets that each belief system doesn’t share with the other, or are incompatible, get cancelled out? Leaving only that which they share in common?

I think God and chaos can be construed as two conceptions of the same thing. Can be, but not necessarily are. My thoughts on this get rather complicated, but suffice it to say I link the two with “everythingness”. I think God is everything–not just everything that exists but every alternative possibility–which is how I’m conceptualizing chaos here. I also think God is consciousness, the ultimate essence thereof, and also being itself. And I think consciousness and being are the same. But therein lies the complication of this way of thinking, complicated enough to write a 3 volume book on it (link in my sig).

Interesting thoughts. I’m curious to know how you think of dimensions creating other dimensions, and how dimensions can give rise to “things”.

BTW, Dan, I donated $5 to play your game at dannerz.itch.io. It reminds me of a game I created a while back. You know, guy in a maze, has to collect items, avoid the baddies, defeat them with weapons, etc.

I don’t think a purely negative/chaotic situation is possible, as they are privations of being.

I think you start from fullness, and fullness makes room for the less full from its abundance. Fullness is not an arbitrary freedom. Every step away from fullness is an illusory step away from reality.

That’s why I think the end of LOST and the Good Place are kind of … I mean … hokey. Like Nirvana doesn’t seem like “the fullness of life” to me. Freedom from unhealthy attachment doesn’t mean detachment from joy/life. Perhaps some versions of Buddhism would agree.

That’s why if you’ve truly reached enlightenment/fullness, you bring it back down instead of hoarding it. Socrates=bossome.

Well, we are talking about myth here. I’m interested in how the ancients thought about chaos more than whether or not it exists.

But why do you see it as negative and a privation of being?

In a way, I agree. What we see of reality is an extremely filtered, dumbed-down version of reality. The true “noumenal” reality is infinitely abundant and full. Human perception is like a black and white photo. It captures some of reality but filters out color–or more precisely, reduces down the diversity of colors in the world to black and white. These varying shades of black and white still represent the real world, but representations don’t always (and usually aren’t) as complex in terms of qualitative diversity and abundance as that which they represent.

If a Buddhist did think freedom from attachments meant detachment from joy/life, they would tell you it doesn’t matter. But Buddhism is supposed to make your life more joyful anyway, or at least more peaceful, but only because of detachment, not because of the satisfaction of yearning. Makes one wonder how easily a Buddhist would find detachment if the joy or peace of mind it supposedly brings never came.

Yes, it’s completion. Once one is complete, one can afford to help complete others. It’s the whole put-on-your-own-mask-first policy.

Well, seems like we agree for the most part, Ichthus. But what the heck is Socrates=bossome? :-k

bossome is a combination of boss & awesome

aka Socrates

chaos as negative/privation rather than positive/substance… I think it’s basically wiggle room that can’t exist on its own, but is infinite subsumed in whole.

That’s probably as much as I can say without going into C Theory and Trinity & stuff.

gib,

So, what if the joy and peace never came with said detachment? Would it not be ENOUGH for one’s mind to be free as if one is looking into an empty bowl? The emptiness in that bowl alone is enough to recognize that one is free from the chaos, pain and confusion.

I wonder what it is within that bowl that we cannot see - for us, it is empty and ENOUGH but…

I don’t know, Arc. It’s hard to say unless you’ve been there yourself. Have you been there? Can you attest to what it’s like to be detached from all pain and all pleasure, looking into that empty bowl? I can’t. But I’ve certainly seen my fair share of Buddhist (or Buddhist-like) people and they all seem to carry with them this “glow” (for lack of a better word)–a glow of peace and contentment, and maybe it even amounts to joy. I haven’t seen very many who look hallow and void–like there really is a gaping “nothing” inside. And so I’m left wondering–wondering not only what it’s like to experience that glow, but what it would be like if instead there was a nothing. And I wonder if they would have an easier go at it than those who experience joy.

The joy ones sound supernova, and the empty ones sound black hole. Probably getting there wasn’t easy for either.

North and South, is much different than good and evil.
North and South are connected to each other, even though the repell away from each other in their own way.

In christianity, we get a big god making a big reality, of inferiors.
Humans are considered inferior to god, but god created them.

In evolution, the small created the large.
Things started off small, then slowly grew into more
numerous more complex forms.

What one is more natural? :
Small to large,
Or large to small?

I see.

Motion is energy, energy is motion.
Change is the essence of energy when it is active.
When it is passive, it’s potential energy.

Dimensions + Energy = forms.
With properly directed energy, dimensions can be expanded or changed.

Ah, so you mean in a physical sense–like positive and negative charges. In other words, you and your friend were asking: what if our universe was created from two universes colliding, one containing nothing but positively charged particles and the other negatively charged particles. I suppose those positively and negatively charged particles would bind together and form atoms.

That’s a good question, Dan. In nature, we see plenty of examples of both. Water molecules crystalize together to form snow flakes (small to large). But life forms die and decay into particles (large to small). I suppose the second law of thermodynamics (the law of entropy) would say large to small is more natural–but then the question is: how did things get large to begin with?

So I suppose you mean to say that a “theory of ultimacy” is a theory that says large to small is more natural. Is that right?

So let’s say we had a 1 dimensional universe with energy… are you saying the energy in that universe could reshape that single dimension into other dimensions? To, in a sense, “push” that one dimension in perpendicular directions?