Sympathy, Pity, Resistance

Philosophy Forums Psychology and Mind
1

When you see the poor begging for money, you feel sorry for him and gives him what he wants. This means he has power of sympathy over you. This is the power of the beggar.

We must toughen ourselves against them, the manipulators of passion, seeking to subdue us. Never give to a beggar.

In fact all cries seek to have power over us. Would a baby cry if the crying itself does not yield result? A cry is a cry for help that has its power in our human frailty of compassion. To be powerful, we must reisist the power of the beggar. This is a battle in psychology. The poor in Africa have their power in pity, they want to shame the world, they are beggars and we must do all in our power to resist their form of power. They are a super power. because they get all things for free if they sheed some tears, while the resolute soilders of America dies in battle, they have less sympathy because they are too stoic to want to win through psychological perversion.

This Christmas, I will not make any donation. If the poor exert power of pity on me, I will show the entire sydney Catholic Community my immunity to it. because. I can handle it!

2

A large portion of the beggar’s “power” actualy lies in the values of the observer. If we value human life more then our own money we will put one above the other in sertain situations.

…this is a very strange reaction.
What was the method in which you were tought the value of pity?

What is the reason that you want to show this “streingth” to the syndey Catholic Community? Have you sub-contiously been picking up on a mix of repression and domination that was added to the morality that you were tought or experianced alot of from these Catholics?

Remember that morality was not meant to be used to control people but to free them from suffering.

Please do reply to my reply.
(* Dan waits *)

[edit]

If you will actualy stop and think again about this, you will see that the charity and pledge drives are not run by africans…
…ok?
The actual country of africa is not sending masses of beggers into places like USA for example, but there are people in that country who want to send messages out to other people. They basicly ask “will you help us save lives by giving money to our efforts?”.

3

Dan~

It would contribute to the discussion if you could tell me what your position on pity is? would you give to any beggar if he begs?

The question then becomes ought the observer live by certain understandings? i.e give to the poor unquestionably. The beggar inspire pity in us, the question is ought we allow pity to influence our will? Let me put forward an example, if you know someone who is a compulsive drunk and gambler, he comes and begs for money, you know he has no loyalty, honesty, he is poor just as we are sinners through our own fault, will you give him money? I for one will not.

We humans are emotional animals, does not matter what our convictions or as you put it, our values are. we feel hurt when someone cries. it is our emotional response. I ask, ought we let our emotions dictate our actions? and let the beggar have power over us?

I do help the poor that help themselves.

The beggars are using ‘morality’ to manipulate our emotions and control our actions. Morality are simply the rules of behaviour, they themselves do not cause suffering. suffering is not a bad thing, because we suffer because we are not satisfied, so we constantly strive for higher truth, development, economically, spiritually or intellectually.

but since when have they asked ‘what have I done to save myself?’ I mean the poor Black African Child today was born after year 2000 when worldvision has been working as it says itself for the past 40 yrs. so a child born on 2000 is still suffering the same fate as that of 40 yrs ago. so worldvision has failed for 40 yrs. the africans know they are living in povety for 40 years yet they still produce kids irresponsibly 40 years later whom they can’t look after. all you see today are masses of children, if they stop producing then they have less population means more food for those remaining. if they don’t care about their own kids when they bring them into the world, why ought I care?

Edit: this goes back to my principle, how can I help others when they don’t even bother to help themselves?

4

Hopefuly ive miss-judged you.

What is my position here?
If i see one in need and i have, then i shall give.
If i see one who feels un-loved, then i shall love.
If i see one who feels hated and worthless, i shall do all i can to exault.

5

if someone is in need, then will he help himself, if yes, then I shall give.
if someone is deserving of love not simply lacking love then I shall love.
if someone feels worthless then if he has worth then I’ll comfort him.

it is not just to give one undeservingly without WORK. because why can’t I expect free things? why can’t I be lazy, and cry and whinge and expect food hand outs. what would become of the economy without my intellect to direct it?

6

Pity? I do not understand what you mean. Do you mean the desire to share that of which you have little need with those who have a greater need for it? If so, then I think it the ULTIMATE expression of strength. To paraphrase Nietzsche, strength consists in being able to withstand parasites, to give endlessly and suffer no loss.

7

By pity, I mean the power of pity that beggars exert on us. We are to resist their power of pity by all means. I can handle their power, but can you?

will you give, simply because you feel pity?

8

Is pity the only reason that you would give? If so, then you are poorer and weaker than the beggars whom you deny.

You see it as a sign of weakness to feel compassion for a suffering human being? You say that you would only give to someone who is already helping himself…that’s like saying you’d only save a drowning person if they could already swim.

For being a Christian, you are remarkably ignorant of what your religion teaches. I challenge you to show me where the Bible says clearly and unmistakably that pity is sinful (or at least a sign of weakness), that people should harden themselves to beggars and cling like misers to their material possessions. If you can do that, then I challenge you to show me how whatever passage you may be able to distort to fit your message in some way is more “accurate” than the countless passages in the Gospels where Jesus advocates giving to the poor at every opportunity and renouncing your material wealth in favor of the wealth of the Kingdom of Heaven.

9

no, that’s like saying, you’d only save a drowning person if they would swim.

You must read Bible in context, the poor back then, especially in the Bible were all religious. It is helping your ‘brother’ not aid the work of Satan. those who are lazy will have the ‘little taken away from them.’

10

Same thing! All you’re basically saying is that you’d only give aid to those who least need it.

You still haven’t answered my question: is pity the only reason you would give?

What does being religious have to do with being lazy? Are you assuming all beggars have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior?

11

not the same. because someone may know HOW to swim but by sheer laziness prefer not to swim. So Could does not imply Would.

I give to the poor for a variety of reason. But pity is definately not the reason I would give. I would not give simply because I feel pity. and the same ought be applied to others. Pity, sympathy is another way of robbing hard working people.

Christianity teaches us to work hard. A religious person is never lazy, he is always doing the work of God. All beggars have not accepted Christ, for if they have they would not be beggars. When I speak of beggars, I speak of long-term beggars on the street, not some brother who had just fallen.

12

PoR,

You really need to spend more time with your real life friends. I’m sure they are sympathetic to your world view. You’ll find little resonance with your unique views here. You may be sincere, but it does not follow that your views are any place close to conventional or even reasonable thinking. Perhaps being a fringe thinker is enough justification for you, but it is lost on the wide majority of ILP members.

Being non-religious, I can’t sincerely pray for you, but I can certainly hope that you find a more productive path to follow.

JT

13

You still have yet to mention one reason besides sympathy that you would give. Let’s hear it.

Yeah, but that does not in anyway affect my point. You would save someone who would swim if they were drowning? But if they would swim, they wouldn’t need you to save them!

If you are trying to say that there are no Christian beggars, a simple walk through downtown Santa Cruz is all I need to gather data enough to disprove you.

So for what reason would you help the “brother who had just fallen”, if not pity or compassion? And how can you possibly know that all other “long-term” beggars are not fallen brothers who were never able to get back up?

14

I explained multiple times, I said I would help those who would help themselves.

what, I explained before, ‘would’ does not imply ‘could’ even if they would swim they may could not swim. Someone may be able to swim but they would not swim because they are LAZY. so they deserve to drown. I say once more ‘would does not imply could’

who are they? how long have they been beggars. please answer!

I would help just fallen because they are temporary losers, so if I help them I can make them into winners. not out of pity but because they want to help themselves and they want me to help them, so I help. all long-term ones are not brothers because they are definately lazy. give me an example, you are constantly making up words, introducing incoherent concepts, like lazy Christians which does not exist.

15

That is not a reason. I ask you, why help those who help themselves? Why help those who don’t need your help?

No, what you said is “could does not imply would”; ~(A->B) does not equal ~(B->A). That aside, what are you really saying here? That you have superhuman mindpowers that let you know which drowning person is able to swim and which is not?

What? You want names, pictures, locations and life stories? Now you’re just being absurd.

And how is that a sign of greater “strength”? All you have changed is who has power over you and how they get that power…unless, of course, you care to concede that it’s possible for someone to give out of love to anyone they freely choose, and that all gifts to lazy beggars are not by necessity given out of pity.

You also seem to be making a mockery out of Christian missionaries, who try to spread the Gospel to those who lack it–to give them the “greatest gift of all”: the Salvation of Jesus. If you wouldn’t even give a measly ten cents, I’m sure you’d deny the lazy the gift of Jesus…or do you put money in higher regard than your Lord?

16

“That you have superhuman mindpowers that let you know which drowning person is able to swim and which is not?”

I think that you figured it out.

17

igliashon

I help those who help themselves so they can get back onto their feet. They need my help to get back onto their feet! a hard working starving African child need my help, but a lazy fat white guy eating pizza and on social security does not need my help.

you don’t need logical indicators. I may know how to drive a car, but I maybe too lazy. I may want to learn to drive a car, but there is no one to teach me.

we were using that as an analogy. Assuming I asked him. ‘can you swim brother?’ and he said ‘yes’ and I ask ‘then why don’t you swim to save your self’ and he said ‘because I am lazy and I am waiting for someone to take pity on me to save me’ then would you save him?

but if you actually put a name, a picture, a location and their life stories to them, you’ll see that they are all architects of their own failure. all you are talking about are conceptual generalisations, when you get down to details, you’ll see that they all do drugs, always drunk, lazy, never want anything in life. if they want nothing in life, then they want nothing from me so there is nothing I can give.

but it would be a mistake to give to the lazy because it would encourage laziness. I first give out of love, but then I see the same professional ‘beggar’ being caught on T.V eating at a high class resturant. I just feel cheated and happy and full of love, that a beggar whom I took pity on now eat better food than me.

and the real beggars ought to do something in their lives. most of them are drug addicts, so I try to help them to get off drugs. those who can’t are gone. those who can survive and I try to promote industriousness in them. but some just sink back to their old habits. I have become cynical, though not pessimistic.

when you have the benefit of my experience, you would not critise me such.

I used to give. but they just spend it on grog or drugs. when I tell them the truth they just tell me to ‘bugger off’. There is a time for everything, I am sure the Holy Spirit will guide them to truth. And I pray even for the lazy that they may work hard, think hard. even though they may not be bright, as long as they try their very best.

look, i am not the cold hearted, so called ‘racist’ being you seem to think. I love the world, but I am simply powerless in the face of evil. So I pray, and help you, and others, who want to know what the Holy Spirit taught me. Peace be with you, and to all who read my message.

18

PoR, you now seem to be making a completely different point than you started off with. First it was “don’t help people out of pity”, now it seems to be “don’t pity the lazy”. On the latter point, I sort of agree; if someone is truly capable of helping him or herself and absolutely refuses to do so, well, I can’t see how anyone would pity such a person. But you originally said:

Nothing to do with laziness, or any other circumstances surrounding the beggar; just a complete categorical rejection of any assistance motivated by pity/sympathy. Now you seem to be saying that it’s okay to pity someone so long as they are hard-working Christians who have “fallen” due to circumstances beyond their control; yet how is the power of pity they excercise over you categorically different than that of the lazy person who has freely taken up begging as his or her chosen vocation? Pity is pity, and your OP said quite plainly that resistance to pity is a sign of strength. So wouldn’t it be even stronger for you to withhold giving to anyone, at all, ever, regardless of circumstances–including “fallen” Christian brothers?

And of course, you still haven’t answered my question: is it not possible to have other motivations for giving other than pity/sympathy? Couldn’t someone, say, DECIDE FREELY to give whatever they want to whomever they chose, withouth anyone excercising power over that person?

And as to whether all beggars are lazy and non-Christian, well, a great many religious people (including the disciples of Jesus) renounce all material wealth and become beggars in order to be closer to God. What do you say of these?

19

I would NEVER give out of pity! Since when did I say I will give out of pity? I do not give to the fallen Christians out of pity, I give to help them back to where they had fallen. Because I feel INDIGNANT that they do not deserve their fate. Resistance to pity is a sign of strength, it is also a sign of emotional maturity.

there are other motivation, but to give simply out of pity is unacceptable!

The disciples are not beggars. They renounce WORLDLY possession so they can RECEIVE, HEAVENLY possessions. They simply think that HEAVENLY possessons is a GREATER INVESTMENT to WORLDY possessions that moth can destroy. they are smart investors, not beggars.

20

I think perhaps we have different definitions of pity. Let’s normalize. Do you agree to the following dictionary definition?

How about compassion, too:

You said:

First, repeating your mantra is not a justification of your mantra. You can’t prove that pity is weakness simply by saying it over and over again.

Second, you give to your fallen Christian brothers because you see their suffering and wish to relieve it. How is this different from the pity that the lazy beggar might arouse in you if you were “weak enough” to be susceptible to it?

That matters not; they still require worldly possessions to survive in the world, and must receive THOSE by begging for alms from others. They do not work for their food, shelter, or clothing; they must have it provided for them by the charitable. They differ from the lazy only in their motivation for not working.

If everyone denounced worldly possessions, the children of the world would soon find themselves on their way to “heaven”, for there would be no one to sustain them here on Earth. Would you advocate this?