Systems of Power

[xanderman]

{Moving a discussion into its own thread}

@xanderman

km2_33, What system of democracy allows citizens to vote officials out of office?

@km2_33

To answer your question Xanderman, Big Brother for one… and that’s the closest thing we have to true democracy. Unfortunately, I’m not joking.

But realistically, while there’s no political “system of democracy” – that I know of – that enables the hoi polloi to directly vote someone out, the act of voting for someone automatically means that you are also voting someone out of office. We often hear “party X didn’t win the election; party Y lost it”. So with the political system we voting someone out is done simultaneously with voting someone in.

I don’t know if “voting out of office” is the best description. The end of a official’s term of office is not the same as getting voted out of office. The potential end of their term of service is already in place at the begining of their term. Only the posibility of re-election not getting exercised creates the opporunity to describe the situation as getting voted out.

@km2_33

If you are asking “what system of democracy” allows its members/employees/consumers/team/group/participants etc to vote the officials/managers out… there’s plenty. For instance, there are shareholder meetings, businesses, teams, suppliers, groups and associations of all shapes, sizes and persuations.

Just to clarify here, are you suggesting that a corporation qualifies as a democracy?

@km2_33

What I don’t get, is why you suggest my non-serious request needs to be compared with a “system of democracy” which allows “citizens” to vote “officials out of office”. Surely you’re not comparing ILP to a government? Surely you’re not comparing membership here to “citizenship”? Surely you’re not comparing the moderators to “officials”?

The executive power structure of a BBS (such as the forum here) is most easily described as primarily autocratic. A single, self-selected administrator has all executive power. Then part of that executive power can get shared with moderators. The single administrator however retains all executive power and can discharge a moderator at any time without cause. Since a group of moderators do share executive power then a BBS can also be considered an oligarchy.

[Gobbo]

I could be wrong here, but I don’t think a corporation qualifies as a democracy. Sure they share some of the same concepts, ie: voting, postions of relative ‘power’ etc.

But I think a corporation better defined as…well… a legal individual. See the unique thing about a corporation is that it can apply for nearly every right that a living person within a democracy can achieve (unfortunately they can’t be labled clinically insane, ie: gross neglect for enviroment, others, harm to others, enviroment etc). There is no ‘public sphere’ in a corporation, every member works to further the collective whole. Anyone whose actions would be considered anti-productive are expelled almost immediately.

I think this is the main difference, in a democracy there is a public sphere which can act in a wild variety of ways ‘against’ the system, and it’s still their right so long as they don’t break any laws. In a corporation there may be some democratic occasions, but the power system is inevitably an oligarchy, much like X explained out board here works.

[km2_33]

Xanderman, let me first reiterate: I WAS JOKING when I replied to Ben’s humorously titled thread “Democracy Prevails” by saying: “let us know when we can start voting moderators out. I’m itching to go.”

@xanderman

Just to clarify here, are you suggesting that a corporation qualifies as a democracy?

Is a corporation a democracy? No.
Can a corporation have democratic processes – i.e. asking all shareholders to vote on ousting an official? Yes.

I don’t know why you got all serious and started to argue the details of democracy, ‘voting out” and ILP. It’s a no brainier. ILP is not a democracy…. and ILP can never be a literal (political) “democracy” so you are asking me to compare apples (a political democratic body) with oranges (an ad hoc democratic process of a private organisation i.e. ILP)

@km2_33

What I don’t get, is why you suggest my non-serious request needs to be compared with a “system of democracy” which allows “citizens” to vote “officials out of office”. Surely you’re not comparing ILP to a government? Surely you’re not comparing membership here to “citizenship”? Surely you’re not comparing the moderators to “officials”?

@xanderman

The executive power structure of a BBS (such as the forum here) is most easily described as primarily autocratic. A single, self-selected administrator has all executive power. Then part of that executive power can get shared with moderators. The single administrator however retains all executive power and can discharge a moderator at any time without cause. Since a group of moderators do share executive power then a BBS can also be considered an oligarchy.

We agree. ILP is a private organisation and operates on the structure the owners have chosen. It can have democratic processes but the legal structure (corporation, business, partnership, association) has been designed to retain ownership and power in the hands of its owner(s) not its members.

This is so obvious I’m not sure what we are discussing here? Let’s move away from ILP and clarify what this thread is about.