Clearly there are tautologies present in every argument for God on this website. Let me say it clearly, “God cannot be empirically proven.” And please no ontological rhetoric, it doesn’t hold water. I’m interested in knowing if anyone out there believes in mind (in terms of metaphysics) that is beyond the biological. Atoms are moving in my brain right now yet my thought transcends my grey matter. Obviously if someone did exploratory surgery on me they wouldn’t find Plato’s Republic. Yes my mind is part biological but my consciousness is not. Consciousness is an apriori phenomenom because within my consciousness is conscience (in terms of free will behavior). I have rationality in addition to instinct. An animal might fight or flee, but it will never deliberate between these choices. A human will and perhaps some might even go against instinct. However consciousness in and of itself is not an argument for God. But it does prove that materialism is false because we are aware of our own thinking. There is a part of us that is noumenal. Miracles are another phenomena that might verify a supernatural existence, but they cannot not be tested, which is why I stand by might statement that God cannot be proven empirically.
Yet, if some part of us is noumenal and unknowable then how can we even study it? How can we make claims about it? Would it not be more worthwhile to approach the problem materialistly, allowing for the possibility that emergent properties will arise (a possibility that allows “God” in through the back door)?
I never said that the noumenal part of us was unknowable. Consciousness or mind is capable of reasoning, self reflection, deliberation, and influence (over the biological). I can make valid statements about all of these because I do them everyday. It would be a pantheistic assumption that God would be emergent in natural properties. It’s like saying God is everything or the whole show. The only thing is the noumenal part of me is not natural because my consciousness is immaterial. Again, if you spread out my brain on a piece paper (not to be gross) what you will find is nerve endings, cells, etc. What you won’t find are my thoughts, my reasoning, my deliberations. Atoms and molecules don’t show the trascendence of my rationality. An animal would never deliberately touch a hot burner. I could. My instinct for self preservation my tell me not to, but I could do it anyway, which suggests something other than biological activity. The thing is we are already aware of some characteristics which I have previously mentioned. Augustine in his work: On the Trinity gives great detail on how spirit can impress itself on mind, which is also spirit. You should check it out.
Uh, of all that the mind is capable of, just which part(s) make the noumenal part of us knowable? Are you suggesting that self-awareness (mind) can ‘know’ itself?
JT
The fact that our mind or soul has awareness of itself is all through the Platonic philosophies as well as Christian theology. For example, I’m aware that I’m thinking right now. Not only that, but I’m aware of my awareness (i.e. I have a thought of saying something to somebody, and maybe, God forbid, its a really nasty thing to say. There is the initial thought - the nasty thing, and then there is the awarness of the thought, which might keep me from saying it. It’s like the common saying, “I think I’ve had an epiphany.”) Animals don’t have an awareness on that level, which distinguishes us as rational beings. The noumenal part of us is aware of itself because it makes value judgements of our conscious thoughts and actions all the time.
- In a way its like a man or woman studying neuroscience. He or she is using the brain to study the brain and therefore knows what the brain is like.
Hi waughm,
Thank you for using the term awareness. It is a truism that the concept of God cannot be proven empirically, but it does not follow that God cannot exist. What is clear is that we can be aware of an infinite number of possibilities and not “know” anything. To impute qualities or characteristics of any possibility in the realm of the supernatural is arrogance at best. Yes, there is an awareness of mind beyond the biological, but it is just awareness. There is no knowing. So what kind of world would you like to construct? 
JT