Terror Theory

Howdy folks - been reading Dawkins again on aggressive strategies in social groups and just thought I’d have a bash at the terrorist angle. Anyway - off we go…

Let’s say there’s a big cosmopolitan city, let’s call it “Cantgetalongopolis” - there’s a lot of ethnic conclaves dotted around.

By far the largest, wealthiest and most technologically comfortable group are the Tremblers, who dominate the West of the city. They love tea and deep restful sleep. Unfortunately there just isn’t enough tea to go round - so they have to get it from the conclave opposite - the Unknowns residing on the more Eastern side.

Now - by and large the members of the two populations fall into three groups: The leaders, the moneyheads and the followers.

*The followers are happy as long as they can sit on their collective asses and survive reasonably comfortably - they don’t know much about the other parts of the city, or the people there, and they don’t really care to. They believe the TV. They usually live with a background hum of fear in their hearts. But that’s okay - they’re used to it. Easily panicked and capricious. Religious in the way a fish is religious about water: its ever-present and they don’t care what colour it is as long as there’s some oxygen involved in it somewhere.
*The moneyheads are the go-getters, they’re rich - and use there money/influence to keep the status quo - afterall they’re are rich within the parameters of the current regime, any boat rocking will upset their applecarts…
*The leaders - often moneyheads themselves on the sly, or at least influenced/backed by them - they strive to keep their conclaves going roughly forward, and please/control the followers, or at least convince the followers that they are being given what they want even if they have to be told what they want in the first place. And of course - to keep themselves in power. The only difference between the two conclave’s leaders is that the Trembler-leaders are only nominally religious by proxy - in that they adopt a certain pious mein to please a (large) segment of their follower component; And the Unknown-leaders are overtly religious (in apparel) and directly impress a religious bent upon their followers en masse. Both hold onto power very basically by telling their followers what they should want - and then supplying it to them.

“Hey followers - this is what you always wanted.”
“Really…? Whoo…”
“and here it is.”
“Gee - thanks boss.”

By whatever factors of fortune you wish to name - the Tremblers are ahead of the society-game with regard to the Unknowns. Both conclaves grew and florished in relative isolation from eachother - until the tea shortages in the West. Then suddenly - the two conclaves began to rub.

The leaders of both conclaves have a faction of followers - a warrior caste. The Tremblers have a large and well trained/well equipped faction. The Unknowns have a smaller-less well trained-less well equipped faction. No match.

Both enter into mutually beneficial business. But all the while the Unknowns are unsettled by the Tremblers, who are so different from them. And carry such big sticks despite their smiles. They buy - but ultimately, they could take if they wished.

But despite the uneasiness, for the Unknown-leaders (who previously had little use for tea) - the money is a life-support system, artificially keeping alive a status-quo/social construct thats day was all but done. Their social evolution slows almost to a stop.

The followers of both conclaves are afraid of that which they don’t know/understand. Some members of both conclave followers go rogue - become fanatical haters of the other group. Forming a sub-group: the Terrors.

The Terrors differ only in that the Trembler terrors are passive - prefering to work by proxy through their leaders and the resident warrior caste; but the Unknown Terrors are active in that they are less trusting of their leaders, and perhaps contemptious of the warrior caste. They live underground. But they have a problem - they have cut themselves off from the usual life-lines, they need money.

The tea crisis goes up and down, the Trembler-followers need their tea. The Unknown-leaders remain worried about the disparity of the conclaves and subtlely massage the crisis for all it’s worth.

Their is no intimate knowledge - no deep understanding - no trust. Only a symbiotic relationship of supply and demand and of course… money. Neither conclave asks any questions - as long as the status quo is preserved. Nobody wants to know.

Now eventually the followers in the two conclaves start to become aware of how eachother lives. This causes unrest. Both the leaders and the moneyheads don’t like this. They like to be in power, to be seen to be pleasing their followers, and they like the status quo as it is respectively…

Something must be done. But what…?

Here the Terrors come into play.

The Trembler leaders listen unhappily to their followers - who don’t like the music that’s being played gradually ever louder over in the Unknown conclave - it disturbs their (self)-righteous sleep. They murmur and toss in bed. They begin to think something should be done to dim the roar. They don’t care that it is their teamoney that is helping to prevent the music’s rawcous jarring softening with time (just as their own slave music/sexually unequal melodies/warlike crescendos were) oh-no - they just want it stopped - and stopped NOW. Loudest of all the voices are the Terrors - who infect and incite the already fearful followers.

But what to do…?

The leaders and the moneyheads don’t really want to rock the boat that brings home the tea. They decide a sit and wait policy. If something happens… they use the warrior caste to chastize, to liberate, to help

The Unknown-leaders by and large - are not foolish enough to enter into a direct conflict - they try to further isolate their followers from trembler influence by cutting as many means of communication/media exchange as they can. This proves only partially effective. To combat the leakage they engineer propaganda detrimental to the Tremblers - to sway the followers back toward the status-quo. This also boosts the Terror subset. But little direct action is taken. The Unknown moneyheads also do not wish to upset the tea-caddy that makes them rich, but at the same time are too frightened that the whole conclave may come crashing down to stand by and do nothing.

But what to do…?

They are in a dilemna - they can’t waste any more money on the leaders - who ultimately do nothing. The can’t form their own warrior caste without instantly being targetted and squashed by leaders of both conclaves. So what option is left…? The Terrors. Fund them - form a pact of mutual secrecy with the demons.

[size=200]Boom.[/size]

The Unknown Terrors live on a fine line. They cannot grow too large - else they break the surface-tension of concealment and get extinguished. So they stay small, and exploit the trembler’s own technology and more unscrupulous leader/moneyhead members to gain the things they need. Weapons, info, means of delivery. To gain in effectiveness they only have to keep alive the medium of fear that they thrive on… And patiently, wait for the enemy to invent/make possible weapons of greater power. It is not in their interest (or as yet capability) to cut the heads off their enemies - only to add spin to the circle of violence - They hide amongst the innocent followers of their own and other conclaves, striking silently out of the dark like snakes, and sometimes like salamanders - shedding tails, regrowing limbs - it matters not as long as the body lives on.

The Followers of the tremblers react too - whailing at the leaders to end this disturbance to their sleep. Their background fear grows from a hum to a roar. They give their leaders carte-blanche- and wash their hands of the consequences. The Terrors take over the followers voice. They get elected in greater numbers…

The trembler warrior caste is given a hopeless task. Root out the Unknown Terrors. With one hand tied behind their backs. With weapons and information gathering systems meant to deal with large visible groups, not ghosts hiding in children’s schools. Accidents occur. The circle of violence turns and spins - throwing off more and more fear, more and more Terrors.

And while the medium of fear and ignorance between the two groups of followers remains - there is no hope of the the Terrors on either side dying.

Anyway - that didn’t actually turn out to be all that ‘Selfish-Geney’ did it…?

Ah well.

So my questions to you boys and girls out there are these:

  1. How do we break the circle of violence - and illuminate the ‘followers’ without putting the ‘followers’ of both sides at risk from the ‘Terrors’ OF BOTH SIDES…?

  2. How do we encourage social… dah… updating regarding human rights/conventions of leadership in the middle-east without relying even indirectly on the big stick…?

Important note(s) -

*This is a ‘sensible posts only forum’ so any posters (you know who you are) who just come online and say ‘those Muslim bastards should all be blown to hell’ - HOWEVER FIGURATIVELY - will be ignored. And possibly ridiculed, if I can find the bile.

*This is not the religious forum No outright discussions about books that were written over 1500 years ago, and were socially applicable then, but less so now, and to be honest possibly not so widely read as you would like to think nor taken as seriously by your average punter…

Anyway - we’re all bright people - let’s see what we can come up with.
Hell - even a complete lack of response may tell us something…

Tab.

-Imp

*This is a ‘sensible posts only forum’ so any posters (you know who you are) who just come online and say ‘those Muslim bastards should all be blown to hell’ - HOWEVER FIGURATIVELY - will be ignored. And possibly ridiculed, if I can find the bile.

*This is not the religious forum No outright discussions about books that were written over 1500 years ago, and were socially applicable then, but less so now, and to be honest possibly not so widely read as you would like to think nor taken as seriously by your average punter…

…or let’s exclude the facts that interfere with my bias.

Tab,

Now you’ve gone and done it. A serious thread. I’m disillusioned.

Breaking the cycle of deliberate insanity…

I don’t think there is any pragmatic solution. Some of us who tend to be a bit idealistic ( :blush: ) would like to think so, but I cannot see the leveling process ending any time soon. As you indicated, the money and power people have a vested interest in keeping the current situation going as long as they can. Orwell missed the date by a few years, but his description of ‘societies’ is chillingly accurate.

The indolent masses are almost at the point of giving the power people the final ticket: an endless get out of jail, do anything we want ticket. We are sitting on the edge of us/them mentality. The power in that that!
That this is nirvana for the moneyheads and the leaders hasn’t been lost on those groups. The dawn of 1984 is just minutes away.

Although this has germinated in the middle east, and for obvious reasons, it is no longer a regional ‘problem’. It is now global, and the complexity has increased a thousandfold. Even if we make the wild assumption that there is a ‘path’ that would lead us out of the mess, who would be ready to listen? Us? Them? Neither?

The fire will burn until there is no one left to remember what started it in the first place. It will take many generations, just as it has in smaller regional conflicts in history. The chaos and violence has just begun.

FWIW, the sun will still come up in the morning, and the wise person will do their best to find safe haven to ride out the storm as best they can. There is a time when feeling and thinking, is cheap neglected merchandise, and we peddlers would do well to sit on the sidelines.

Of course, we rarely do that which is wise, and so the only solution I can find valid is to keep a bright hot spotlight on the insanity as best we can, and try to stay out of the soft stuff.

This is the most depressing post I’ve written in a long while. Time to find Mr. Bailey and have a loooong visit. :frowning:

JT[/i]

let’s just replace the tea with vodka!

it’s hard to break someone of violent tendencies. It’s pragmatic and idealistic to promote peace, but you tell someone who is absolutely bent on your destruction to give peace a chance he’ll blow himself to pieces and take out you and whoever else he can.

I admit I myself like the idea of giving peace a chance, but most of us can’t get over our animal selves.

This is a challenging situation. I’ve suggested humanitarian efforts before, ending poverty, ending our reliance on their oil etc. The way we helped china get better human rights wise, was to inject capitalism into the society and force them to better their human rights violations before we would begin trade… I don’t know that Islamic nations are going to be so willing to accept capitalism. Many african nations will, and the G8 should do everything in their power to bring money to that region of the world.

Careful A. that was almost deep, well, almost. Do you take your bitterness with a twist…? Or straight up…? Now be a good boy and… What did Angel say…? I forget… Oh yes.

Fuck off. There’s a good lad.

Wouldn’t it be great if humans were more human? :confused: No - I’m becoming convinced, like JT, that there is no happy ending to this particular scenario.

So damage control - recommendations…? Tit-4-tat…? You blow up something of ours - we will select a random target of equal value in the country even suspected of hosting the perps and reduce it to rubble…? Retaliate and the nukes fly…? I appoint you Sir Nukesalot chief of colateral damage and retaliatory strategies- give me some examples of your ideas on how to combat the terrors realistically - I live in İzmir - please try to miss me.

Sell all your worldlies - and we’ll pool our resources - there are some awful nice islands around here… Bring Mr. Bailey with you.

Getting positively Impish in your old age… But yes - a view I’ve come to share over the last few days of useless thought.

well not quite, I attribute violence as an anamist behaviour, imp attributes it as humanist (not those humanists) behaviour.

I’ve also come to realize that some level of force is absolutely necessary to deal with the Islamic Terrorist threat. They are absolutely insane and bent on violently killing whomever they can.

Ok I don’t have alot of time so I’ll try and make this quick (but not stupid and unfounded)

This is where I see the emergence of another group. Beyond that of the moneyheads (who would fund political campaigns) they could be called the
‘CORPS’ who basically are now way above the leaders, a sort of world government. Right now, through their ties with the US the corps have a bennificial setup in that going into the middle east A) fuels the economy for corps like Lockhead Martin B) Will make money for the Oil corps and C) settles the inconsequential political pressure put on the US by Bush when he decided to blow up the trade centers to achieve points A ad B.

Now in order to break this vicious cycle of unrelenting hate for the US (and I don’t blame the extremists) that has occured after decades of ‘terrorism’ by the US (I’m using the definition of the word here). Somehow there has to come about the rise of a new, even more powerful CORP whose interest is not to exploit the citizens of the middle east for their ‘tea’ but whose interest lies in something else.

Now I have absolutely no idea what this interest will or could be, but say we learn a meteor is going to crash into earth and we scramble to make a deep impact type thing. That will settle all the wars on earth pretty fast as we attempt to save ourselves.
I don’t think this is so much a political enigma as it is a period that can only be changed with the advent of ‘something’ new and radical.

The world isn’t run by democracy anymore, frig… the US is on the verge of establishing a Monarchy. I think it’s reached that time where we need to work towards a world government, and there are two ways to do this IMO.

  1. take a utilitarian approach and bomb the !!! out of everyone until we’re all the same country, and thus no more figthing (something I don’t think can happen without the descruction of the world)

  2. or come together some other way, possibily through new invention or natural disaster. – Statisticall we’re way past due for a movie type asteriod or meteor to hit earth. If a gamma ray burst were to happen within 5000 lightyears of earth our atmostphere would be wiped out and no one would survive.

anyways this isn’t the most solid argument and I’m starting to loose focus so I’ll leave it at that.

Tab,

  1. Fuck off. There’s a good lad.

Excellent reversion back to your core of stupidity!

What you posted was out of fear that I would shoot down your scenario,which I was not going to do! It’s a lot like George Bush’s preemptive strike policy! Ha, good job! [size=200]You have proven the method to do way with certain types of thinking—outlaw it and then ignore it!!! [/size]

I could call you a hypocrite but no one is perfect.

Actually, I like your idea (as usual) but hated that bit of nonsense that you posted. Would you mind doing some bullet points about the position of each group. Thanks!

Scythekain - did you mean “animalist” for anamist…?

Humans are animals. There is no getting away from that unfortunately. And it’s become obvious to me that far more people are predisposed to embrace their animal nature, than to fight against it. Afterall - where’s the benefit to the individual…? Unless you’re going for the memetic side of things - counting the existance of a model of yourself/your ideas in someone elses head as a bonus. Embrace is the wrong word - people are uninclined to question the animalistic drivers of their more sophisticated behaviors.

The majority of people can’t see past their noses in short.

Bullshit - they are absolutely sane in regard to the context they have placed themselves in. They are insane only from our POV. They are operating on the “end justifies the means” program. Just as the West is about to. It is sad (subjective value judgement Imp :unamused: ) that this seems unavoidable within the current framework of society/humanity.

Hi Old Gobbo, Nice to virtually meet you.

(btw - lancelot’s father…? Or Merchant of Venice…? Or the name of a chimp in your local zoo…?)

Our little multinational BigBrothers…? Hmm… Without any loyalty except to the bottom line… You may be right. But if they exist in the form you propose - then their interest (pun intended) would always to be to promote unrest - there is always more dosh to be made in ‘interesting’ times… Stress a population - they are less likely to stuff their money under the matress - stress a government - and they are more likely to throw their money around trying to do something short-term rather than tieing their money up in long-term aid schemes etc.

We cannot wait for the CORPs to turn all altruistic on us.

Yeah - I was chatting about that with another member last week - an overwhelmingly threatening, but survivable outside context event would become the savior of mankind… (at least in the movies) in reality…? We’d have to have a lot of warning - otherwise I think we’d still be bickering over the details when the martians landed or the metoerite vaporised half the planet.

The invention…? I love sci-fi - how about invunerable/energy-cheap forcefields - put em round buildings - hell, make buildings out of them. Personal force fields etc… Fingers crossed. :smiley: Radio-cleanâ„¢ - wipes away fall-out in a jiffy…! Terrorist-offâ„¢ - spray on country-size, buy one - get one free…! Let’s hope for deus ex machina.

I dunno - destroy one percieved enemy - another springs up, and having done it once - the second time becomes easier to swallow… Then the allies schism through mistrust… Goodbye world as you said.

Hypothetically - How about defend but do not retaliate…? Nah - again - sounds good on paper, would never work in practicality… :frowning:

Martians” it is then.

Adler You call me stupid, and then like my idea anyway… Do you have one of those T-shirts with the arrow and the message “I’m with stupid” on it…? I’ve always loved those because they reflect more on the wearer than the associate of the wearer.

Adl: “Tab is Stupid” [size=75][making subjective value judgement][/size]
Tab: “Adler is Stupid” [size=75][making at once a Subjective VJ, And an observational one - ie, you’ve been called something derogatory on almost every thread you’ve posted on][/size]

And then:

“Hey you - dickhead - come over here and give me a hand…”

I’ll bet you have trouble getting served in bars… :astonished:

He was lancelot’s father… and also an old blind father of the comedic character… I’m not sure why it’s my nick… I picked it back in like grade 8 after I read merchant of venice

as for the zoo… I wish we had a zoo here.

Nice to meet you though, good post btw. It was very… Chomsky-ish

  1. Adler You call me stupid, and then like my idea anyway… Do you have one of those T-shirts with the arrow and the message “I’m with stupid” on it…? I’ve always loved those because they reflect more on the wearer than the associate of the wearer.

I like most of your ideas, oh foolish one! I have told you that before. You insulted me by assuming that I would jump all over your concept and shoot it down.

I enjoyed reading it and then at the end the trombones sounded a comic Wah…wah…wah…wawwawwawaawaaaahhhh!

Anyway, do the bullet point positions if you would, as I think more people will be able to get into the scenario.

yeah the west isn’t about to, that’s the whole nature of the Iraq war. The ends justifies the means. I don’t agree with that, and even to this day I don’t agree with that, I think that we need to work with the “unknowns” (as you call them? or the author?) and get the terrors within their factions and within our own factions. Phelps would be a good starting point within the western world.

yea, I meant animalist. I would agree with some of where you’re going with that statement, but would add, or as an alternative is the “need” to remain exclusive. Both the unknowns and the tremblers, want to remain exclusive.

unknowns and tremblers (leaders and terrors.)
“So the ends does justify the means, if they’re not around we don’t have to ‘integrate’ them, we can keep our exclusivity, because we are better than them.”

two words.

Surgical Precision

Oh doubtful one - Tab is many things, but not a plagiarist:astonished:

Will post longer later… Surgical precision indeed… :confused:

surgical precision is great… when the cancer is isolated and easily identified… but when it isn’t isolated? chemotherapy…

-Imp

lol. :unamused:

not very funny I realize, but damned if it aint true!

likening terrorism to cancer (both sides of the fence west and east) is brilliant. The eastern side from our view point is overwhelmed with cancer and surgery (according to the “rightists”) is not going to work, there’s too much infection.

these “cancer cells” from the eastern view point of the western side, is nothing BUT cancer.

It’s a complex issue and the “chemo” isn’t taking hold of the “cancer” it’s only creating more “cancer”.

Not to wear out the “chemo” thing but the whole body gets pretty sick during the process. Good cells die as well as bad ones. The whole idea is that cancer cells travel all over the body. Cancer of the toe might end up being cancer of the brain. Chemo is a poison that travels all over you bodyas well killing the good and the bad with the hope of leaving more good than bad in tact.

Anyway, my ultimate question is: how do you quickly get rid of a mass belief system as quickly as possible?

I say quickly because mass destruction may be caused by taking a slow approach, which is just like caner again.

Use the media

I think that we are but in the short term I believe that it is making things worse.

I have the international TV channel and it looks like the hip-hop thing is being copied by every culture on Earth that gets TV. You even see Koren kids affected the “fuck it” attitude of a black ghetto kid.

It’s the greatest mind control effort on Earth. However, if you are Johnny Jihad you are going to look at that and scream, “Those blasted infidels! They will burn in the hell fire for this!” Then, you will get started on beating the wife, get a little relaxation, and dig that missle out of the sand where you hid it from the troops. Kidding!

I think that the media will work, but in a generation or two.

That’s the same thing I yell whenever ‘Who wants to be a Hilton’ comes on… but I’m slowly accepting it :wink: