the chicken and the egg problem

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

we often run into chicken vs the egg problem…
and this is another one…

As Sammy/Lori is a bigot and prejudice, he thinks that blacks
are evil because they are black and immigrants are evil, because
they are often people of color… that they were born this way
and will die this way… he had made it clear he is in favor
of a genocide of blacks because they are black and by definition,
evil…he holds to the chicken side of things…

but I hold to the egg side of things… that people are acting ‘‘evil’’ not
because of some innate thing as Sammy holds, but they act because
they are treated as less than human… he has often called blacks
‘‘animals’’ and if treated as Animals, as this society/state does,
people will eventually act as if one were an animal…

or to put it another way, people act the way they do not because
they were born with it, but because that are treated as slaves
within the state/society… (slaves and animals are the same thing)

is the criminal behavior of people because they naturally are
criminals or are they treated so badly, that they rebel and act that
way… the chicken or the egg…

now are some people born being naturally ‘‘evil’’, yep… nothing the
state or society can do about them… they are just plain old ‘‘evil’’
and some people are born naturally good, yep… they do the right thing
no matter what… but the real question is about the 95% of the rest of us…

and this aspect of life has been debated ‘‘ad nauseum’’ since Plato…
is it environment or is it birth… that causes people to act the way
they do? Sammy holds to being born ‘‘evil’’ and I hold to environment…
if we treat people like shit, we should expect them to act like shit…
that is human nature… to dislike those who dislike us… regardless of
the reason for the dislike…

I hold that the capitalistic system treats the members of capitalism
like slaves and in return we return that hate… and what about blacks?
the message of the state/society is quite clear in regard to blacks
and immigrants…as exemplified by Sammy…

he doesn’t hide or disguise his hate and disgust at black people…
and how should one who is black (as I am not) react to this
blatant bigotry and prejudice? as I would react…
with anger and violence… if we are treated as animals/slaves,
why should we act human? the old saying is you get what you pay for…
if you pay/treat people shitty, that is exactly what you will get back…

so, maybe a change of pace, try treating people, all people with
decency and respect, and perhaps that is what you will get back…
and businesses maybe treat people like human beings, not as expendable
slaves, as businesses do…

people steal in reaction to be treated as less then human…
and we get what we pay for… stealing, shoplifting is not
about people being born evil, but by the environment treating
them like shit… hence we can connect crime and violence,
with the state/society treating people like slaves or animals…
and they react back, with crime and violence…

and here lies the tabula rasa part of the story…
people aren’t naturally born ‘‘evil’’ but can learn to be
evil from how they are treated… treat people with dignity
and respect and that is what you will get, treat people
like animals and criminals and that is what you will get…

we don’t have an ‘‘innate’’ idea of evil, but we can be taught it…
learn it from the state/society… by the way we are treated within
the state/society…

so, it is the chicken or the egg for you?

Kropotkin

2

Read this hypocrite misrepresent my positions, understanding them in the only way he can or must to preserve his own delusions …a coward and a liar…
He has to lower me down to his level, to preserve the hope that he can argue against what I am really saying.
He must reduce it all down to emotions …and non-existent abstractions like ‘evil’.
Read how he ascribes to me emotions …like hate, implying that he is governed by love.
Watch and read how he lives in a world of good vs. evil…and may identify as an atheist. #-o
Incredible. :slight_smile:
A hypocrite…like many American Leftists.

Now watch how nobody bothers taking him seriously.

IQ below what is required for philosophy, above the level of women and children.

3

K: and as usual, avoiding the question… is it the chicken or the egg?
is it nature or is it environment?
it’s too bad you are allergic to giving actual answers…

Kropotkin

4

My god old fart…how many times will you use the same bullshyte.
Have I not answered?

Ten times…twenty…more…?
Are you thick?
This is your “philosophical question”…chicken or egg?
HA!! =D>

I haven’t offered an answer to the nature/nurture question?
Look in genes/memes…my thread.
Are you deaf and blind?

Misrepresenting my views, coward, will not validate your delusions.
What a woman…

5

Even this nature/nurture dichotomy is akin to good/evil absolutes…an either/or of simplicity.

Nature = sum of all past nurturing.

My percentages… determining individual qualities.
75% nature
25% nurture

We genetically inherit a range of potentials (nature) and nurture establishes how much of it we cultivate, and in what way - memetic is here. Genes/Memes.

KrapOnIt just asks questions, hoping to corner his adversaries, because he has no counterarguments …as if this would prove his own delusional position for which he provides no arguments and no evidence, other than anecdotal life stories and what the majority thinks, filtered emotionally.
He is an emotional thinker…a feminized thinker.
Entirely subjective without a hint of objectivity.
He is no philosopher…he is another American indoctrinated into postmodernism…parroting whatever they programmed into his brain.
He never questioned what they told him…so he assumes, like many of his kind, that all are like him…

He fishes in the global networks looking for shit to support his delusions…a google genius.
A regurgitating biomass…a bovine.

A waste of time.

He uses the feminine method:
Interrogate hoping the adversary slips-up, then pounce to undermine him personally, without ever addressing his reasoning.
Use emotions to slander, hoping to force the adversary to lose his cool, then use this to dismiss everything he’s said.
Ad hominem, deferring to authorities or collective beliefs, reduce everything to emotions or relationships, never debating rational positions but projected intentions …
Simplify…reducing all topics to absolutist either/or, with no nuances - good vs evil, God vs Satan, Nazis vs Democrats, Right vs Left…except natural binaries like masculine/feminine.
Anything biological is to be ignored or denied.
Linguistically subvert, poke and prod… never offering an alternative other than what is conventional.

…and this is my last response to him/her, it.

Ta, Ta,

6

It may be better to reach more equitable terrain by simply by willing to switch a contentious no to yea. by slightly adjusting the ration say to 50/49?!?

7

that’s nice…meant to Sammy…

anyway, this question of nature vs nurture is a primary one in
several fields of study… for example, in sociology, psychology,
history, biology, and of course philosophy…

as a parent, I can attest to the fact that we spend a great deal of time,
as parents, training our children… becoming human, takes 20 years
of education… and we begin at birth… with indoctrinations like
there is a god, and the US is the greatest country on Earth…
( I can only speak to American indoctrinations, I am sure other
countries have different indoctrinations)

and schooling is just another means of indoctrinations…
which is why the right/MAGA crowd is very tuned into education,
including colleges… they want to control the indoctrinations,
not the left, as they often babble about…their hated of
CRT is just another example of their hatred for education…
( and CRT is actually right, that racism and bigotry was baked into
the official and unofficial beliefs of America, since day one,
that racism/sexism is baked into both the declaration of Independence
and the constitution… one only needs to read them to see it…)

so, we have racism as official America policy for decades if not centuries…
and one wonders why blacks won’t ‘‘behave’’ and act like whites?

which leads us to this chicken and egg problem… are blacks
being ‘‘difficult’’ due to being born that way or has the society/state
behavior toward blacks, an official policy of racism and bigotry toward
blacks, the reason for their ‘‘behavior?’’

now Sammy, being uneducated, doesn’t see how this problem
has been a topic of discussion since Plato… and in fact, one could
make the argument that this chicken and egg problem, in many ways
may be the primary argument in society since Plato…

we learn many, many of our reactions and behaviors from our childhood…
I know that I can see much of my reactions and behaviors resulting
in my own case from childhood… a large family, relatively strict
childhood, moving around a lot… think of me in my childhood as more
of Dennis the menace or as Calvin in Calvin and Hobbes…
I was the family troublemaker… and too this day, I can still
see that in my own actions and behaviors… is that nature, or
is that nurture… I had another complication in that I was born
with a hearing loss… and my parents felt guilty for that…
and that plays a role in my life to this day…
which is behavior we learned as children…
and what part of me comes from birth? who knows?

and as I must be at work shortly, I shall end this…

Kropotkin

8

Then you want me to lie?

It doesn’t matter if they agree or not …the objective truth does not require their nor my subjective agreement.
Reality is…our subjective interpretations suffer the consequence for being wrong.

The sum of all past nurturing cannot be usurped by a lifetime of nurturing… otherwise there would be no species, no life…
We inherit generations of nurturing, and we add to it our own…
nurturing doesn’t imply success nor accuracy…
The degree to which the nurturing contradicts this inherited past determines the degree of out nihilism…and the severity of consequences.

So, nurtured to believe the body is not the mind, and that the body can be contradicts by the mind, leads to mind/body dissonance, with potentially terrible consequences.
I stand…only saying that there are ranges…so 70% - 80% nature…vs 20% - 30% nurture…
I settled in the middle…and I was being generous.

A few decades or a lifetime of nurture cannot change centuries of naturally selected nurturing, i.e., nature.
The only thing nurture can accomplish is determined to what degree and in what manner our inherited impulses, potentials, will be cultivated or sublimated or repressed.