The dilemma of religion in the modern age

It seems to me to be very clear that we experience happenings and then intend to tell stories to describe and explain them. Whatever we experience, it is the result of an interpretation that our minds make of the input of our senses. In the same way, our stories are interpretations rather than descriptions or explanations, although these may be our intention, and there may be multiple interpretations of the same occurrence.

Religions are made up of such interpretations, mostly pre-scientific interpretations of experience, sometimes erroneous in their assumptions, many times the stories are dated and no longer speak to our common sense, but equally, there are numerous stories which have the depth and wisdom that we need to understand ourselves and others. These stories present us with “the other”, and allow us to give life a metaphysical perspective, presenting ourselves with a self-observation quasi from outside.

However, there is the mysterious aspect of life. The unknown or the ineffable experience which we may often think to be a figment of imagination is borne out by the universality of the experience, and there is enough indication that there is something of a collective source of symbols and mythology, which may be a result of a common psychology. Life remains a mystery, and is particularly visible in the explosive genesis on a small planet in a vast universe of hidden potential and hostility at the same time.

The idea that religions are a short step away from the superstition of an angry personality behind a thunderclap just show the fact that we have lost connection with the complexity of human experience and psychology, which the shamans and witchdoctors seem to have intuitively grasped, despite being regarded as primitive, and which they have addressed with mixed results with their medicine for mind and body. The fact is, modern man is becoming increasingly primitive, despite technological advance, and is forced by the sheer amount of information he is confronted with to reduce his decisions to black and white, yes or no.

The complexity of the human psychology has been rediscovered and seems to have two levels. On the one we have the group-dynamics of contention and competition, on the other we have the sensibility and empathy of compassion. We need both but each in different situations, depending on where life takes us. We also have the emotional component, which makes the shift between these two levels sometimes almost impossible – even if it makes sense. Religion is known to address this complexity, often in analogy, parable or poem, with themes which try to make the experience of the individual the message: What you feel is what others feel too – learn from it!

Unfortunately, human society has been making all the mistakes of which the varying sources of wisdom warn us about. Often we fail by having too many rules, having too little room for learning, putting on too much emotion and aggression, and allowing too little sensibility and empathy. These lessons of at least two thousand years are becoming too quiet in an ever louder environment in which the loudest is heard best (even if wisdom says that empty vessels make most noise), or they themselves figuratively raise their voices and compromise their message.

Even here, where we come to discuss religion, the quieter voices have been shouted down and have left, and discussion becomes sparse. What is there to do? Is there a way out of the dilemma – for society, for humankind, and even for the religion forum of ILP?

The problem may be that religion as taught now in churches has become so abstract that it cannot speak to the visceral, gut level part of our being. An Am Native friend told me that the churches have become “cold” emotionally. Although emotionalism is not without problems, a religion devoid of emotion has lost its impetus.

I appreciate your answer Ier, but I ask myself whether emotionality is what is missing. There is certainly a clear emotional approach by the evangelists and TV-Pastors. However, a multitude of hallelujahs don’t have the effect I feel we need.

I feel that it is the lack of engagement with the stories, partly because people believe they are sacred or historical, but something holds them back from accepting the stories as the entrance to spiritual experience rather than objects of admiration and awe. It seems to me that engaging the stories, especially the biblical stories, is where the important emotional touch comes, rather than the modern tendency to hype the stories. The difference is that a criticism must be allowed whereby people can challenge all concerned – even God. That way people are in the stories rather than observing them.

Hyping the stories only makes the whole thing ideology and no-one dares to challenge – and it is obedience to the agenda of that certain ideology which is the aim, not spiritual growth.

The same is true with the stories of Hinduism, Buddhism etc. People in the far east have a similar attitude to their stories as the Christians, Jews and Muslims towards their traditions, whereas the hellenistic approach is to engage in the stories – as was the way with Greek drama. You learn by going along with it, by fighting the battles and chasing the goals.

Our cinema is so concerned with blockbuster action that we have lost our appetite for a dramatic appraisal of what life is about, whether on the stage or in literature. The Bible and other scriptures are just another kind of literature, albeit with a particular agenda.

good to see you again…the dilemma is simple…all stories are made up by humans…the mystery of life…
no one has THE answers…there is no divine thing out there that is the authority…humans are the authority…
humans control humans…

I believe it is an easier answer then you think. The stories you speak of no longer speak
to people. The ideologies including Religions have lost their mojo and no longer
fill a need in people. The stories have to speak to people and their needs,
and what religious stories speak to you? The bible is about sheepherders,
and camel drivers and frankly I have never even seen a camel up close.
How do those stories of two thousand years ago have any meaning for us?

Kropotkin

No, you’re right, nobody has the answers, we are all in the process of working answers out - religion is one form of working things out, and has in itself many facets, some use the meta-perspective of a diety, some use the very human perspective, some approach it from nature, some dramatise with analogy and mythology, all are searching…

Therefore, whether humans are the authority is a question which I can’t completely answer, we may even be the glove puppets of the deity, expressing itself through us - who knows?

However, one thing is certain in my mind, the fundis have got it all wrong …

Hi Peter,

yes, in one way you are quite correct, the stories have a limited audience, the needs of people are being dealt with artificially, and there is a lack of modern myth deep enough to uncover and then fill our needs.

What we need are stories which are not limited to a certain period in time, whose message is timeless, in which we can engage and with which we can struggle and come out better for it. All stories of the ancients which have survived have had that quality about them, otherwise they wouldn’t have survived. There still are a lot of stories with the primal, psychological or moral issues which we still have to address today, some are wrapped up in Greek mythology and the Drama and Tragedies of that time, others in the stories of ancient China and Japan.

It is the question whether we can understand these sources as our human heritage, rather than regarding them just as local traditions. It isn’t so much the stories but the storytellers who are missing. Now and again you read something with depth and you want more, but these stories are often just scratching the surface - as good as they are.

I can’t see where the stories have a limited audiance, we are talking billions of people who Think they are more than stories.
That said, it seems that stories about Products and seeing ourselves as the sum of Products - Surfaces with objects as property - are the most compelling stories to many in the West today - and even much of the rest of the World. That we are chemical Machines their Products can tweak, cover, disguise, fix, decorate and reflect well on our chemical machine…
that’s the modern bible story.

I don’t understand why so many relate to that story, but they do.

But that is the point - they think that they are more than stories and so the stories can’t speak to them. Once something is historical or becomes canned it becomes quickly dated and we have to make it abstract to withstand that passage of time. There is a lot of spiritual cosumerism around, Brad Warner speaks of it in Buddhism, I have seen it in Christianity and Islam, but I suppose it is all over the place.

Human beings are story-tellers and listeners to stories. We make stories up all the time in our minds, imagining this and that, it is the way we are. It is only when these stories have the ability to silence the “mindfarts” (I like that expression) that we get anywhere. Once they have our attention and make us concentrated, we can start to see things as they are … but it is only a start.

When religion become irrelevant in our daily lives, in that it has no bearing on anything, it loses its impetus.

It’s sort of like those that speak of spirits and demons. Spirits and demons have no bearing on my daily life … they are irrelevant to anything important. They don’t clean my toilet, make me breakfast, wash the dishes, or pay for anything. What good are spirits and demons?

And what good is a religion that does nothing for me … but tell me stories from 2 and 3 thousand yrs ago? Can Abraham, or even Jesus, do my laundry?

Have you got that much laundry that it occupies so much of your time?

Our spirits and demons are just the other side of us, the flip-side or the dark side. In fact, we never really know which side is up, because we don’t notice when we change from one side to the other. It is just that we regard that other side as someone else, always darting out of sight when we chase them. So in fact, it is your demons that are dirtying your clothes, messing the house up and dirtying your toilet, which you have to clean up. Damned dualism!

The stories are a way of using mirrors to see what evades is normally, and get a glimpse of that other me who I suppress most of the time. That is why they are important.

This sounds like schizophrenia. Where’s Felix when we need him?

I don’t disagree with what you say here, but I was responding to the idea of the stories not speaking to people in the usual sense of that idea.

Modernity was expected to sound the death knell for religion. But, like Robert De Niro in Cape Fear religion refuses to die. There are those that see religion at war with modernity. I think it makes more sense to take the wisdom from the world’s religions as an inspiration toward ethical and spiritual life.

Yes, I agree, but aren’t we all a bit schizo? Take for example whilst driving your car and you shout a the driver in front for being so damned stupid - wasn’t it you who did the self-same thing down the street, or yesterday or the other week? Aren’t there hundreds of examples where we behave in a way we have previously criticised, but we claim to be fully rational and present. The thing is that we are experiencing life in slices and some memories are carried on and some are just left by the side. There is a side to us that we are either yearning for or which we are running away from all the time - only we interpret it as being someone else and idealise or hate that person (whoever fits the bill) respectively.

It is only when we are made aware of that, slowed down and start reflecting our actions, becoming present in the moment, mindful of our breath, or the wind, the sky, the noise around us, that we start to realise what tricks we are playing on ourselves and how we accompany ourselves with a well meaning monologue, that goes on and on and on and on …

I agree, and I also think we should take the entertainment as well :smiley:

felix can you be specific about the wisdom from the world’s religions…what wisdom

That could entail quite a large post, but let it suffice for me to say that there is an organisation in Germany, which maps biblical stories out using figurines and landscapes which show the episodes in the stories and associate them with developments in normal human lives. The members of the group then listen to a re-telling of the story, encompassing the interpretations and then go on to discuss the issues of the story with regard to their own lives. It is a very effective way to to tell the biblical stories. My favourite one was Elijah, since I had already re-told the story in my particular way two years before and I was keen to hear the comments of other people to this presentation. It brought so much to the surface which just awed us all, and gave us personally a lot to chew on as well.

This is the quality of good stories. They can be analysed in this way, whereas superficial tales are quickly found to run out of content. Of course there are numerous non-biblical stories which can sustain such an analysis as well, you just have to find them and try it out. The biblical stories have been written in my view as stories to be told at the fireside and any story which combines depth with this quality can tell us a lot about ourselves.

Science may be the greatest intellectual achievement of the human species. {Scientists claim it is, but we can see why they might be biased.} But homo sapiens didn’t just become sapient with the advent of modern science. Religious tradition includes the record of the accumulated wisdom of human civilization. Of course, it is mixed up with the record all the stupid, destructive, stuff of human history. But, we commit another stupidity if we don’t take the best and discard the rest.

felix-------what wisdom…