First off, I am agnostic and have been so my whole life (I may that I am spiritual but not religious, but depends who I am talking to). It is only a rare occassion that I attend any sort of church, just so you know where I’m coming from…
Anyway, I was at a confirmation/baptism earlier today at a presbyterian church, at which they recited the Lord’s Prayer as well as mentioned man being made in God’s image a number of times. Only being faintly familiar with these things on an experiential level, something struck me about this and I was wondering if its just my own ignorance acting up or if there’s something actually here…
The Lord’s Prayer, according to King James on bartleby.com:
the part I’m interested in is in italics. Now this prayer was given, and then a sermon was given about the following bit of scripture:
The prayer (especially the lines italicized) struck me at once as being particularly odd, and after hearing the sermon, I was convinced they were meant to conjure up evangelical connotations; in other words, people are supposed to model the earth after heaven by spreading christianity throughout the world… This seems very bizarre to me, even proposterous (not just in disagreeing with the view, but from a christian perspective) as I was under the impression that heaven and earth were fundamentally different. Isn’t heaven incromprehensible for our mortal minds? If so, how could we even begin to attempt to model earth after it?
I concluded that perhaps, as with most of the Bible (NT and OT), a reinterpretation may be both appropriate and revealing. (although I do not follow christianity, the Bible has some very profound statements on a metaphorical level… one can find quite a bit of wisdom in it without actually believing in God).
The lines in the Lord’s Prayer brought to mind a famous mystic statement I am quite fond of (as demonstrated by my sig.) “As above, so below”. While the Lord’s prayer seems to be emphasizing that heaven should be a model for earth, the mystic one leaves it more open, so that heaven and earth are already alike. From here, I thought of the idea of man being made in God’s image (this idea fascinates me; so many possible meanings…). It seemed fit to reinterpret this bit more along the lines of macro and microcosmic unity than moral doctrine…
I don’t know, does anyone see what I’m getting at? Any thoughts? Am I just imagining things or is there actually something here? I know very little about theology or mysticism, only become more and more interested in both the more I read. I tried doing some research on this, but couldn’t really find anything…
Talking to some christian friends of mine, they said they had never really thought about it before. One said (in short) she had thought it meant God spreading his love throughout the world and nothing to with evangelism… though she’s not a typical christian (very questioning in her faith.)
“The Kingdom of God is within you.” The law of the Kingdom is to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. Can love be understood? Maybe not even on a human level.
In Heaven, people love God and one another, and we are charged with making Earth like Heaven in that regard. “Thy Kingdom come.”
How can one love humans in the same way one loves God? Or is that not what its saying… “love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.” Nevertheless, its talking about the divine love (if love in heaven would be divine, would it not?); are we even capable of loving people to that extent in that way?
This is where I think things get really fun. What exactly does this mean? It doesn’t seem like its just saying “follow the law of the Kingdom on earth”. Its saying the kingdom is in you, part of you… which more suggests the macro/micro interpretation I was asking about.
But how can one make someone love either people or God? Especially as love cannot likely be understood by us.
Our Father
who art in the heavens!
hallowed be Thy name.
Thy reign come:
Thy will come to pass,
as in heaven also on the earth.
Our appointed bread give us to-day.
And forgive us our debts,
as also we forgive our debtors.
And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation,
but deliver us from the evil,
because Thine is the reign,
and the power,
and the glory—to the ages.
Amen.
This is one of the most basic prayers that you can find. It essentially says that there is purpose in this world, and we want to see that purpose realised.
The image used figuratively for God is that of a Father, but one who is distant and holy. Where God is, is where he reigns and his will is done. He is in ‘the heavens’ but if he reigns, he is here too – in our midst. He is the bread-giver, the reconciler, the deliverer, the provider of the eternal law.
The prayer calls that the reign of God and his will come to pass, that we receive our appointed or daily bread, that we be forgiven and forgive, and that we may overcome the temptation that taunts us. The prayer recognises the need of redemption, the need of emancipation from an unknown power that keeps us bound over. I feel that it is emancipation from a weakness that sees itself as strong, it is liberation from the blindness that claims clarity of sight, and it is release from the deafness that overhears the voice of wisdom.
The Mystical is given the clothes of the familiar, shallow words are used to express deep feelings, the vision gains substance. It is given our flesh and blood, becomes incarnate in us – although we know that it is his. It is his reign, his power, his glory that gives us new life, hope, love and faith.
Bob-
Let me see if I’m understanding you correctly (I’m going to focus specifically on the lines about his will comeing to pass on earth as in heaven): God reigns over heaven. God reigns over earth, but this prayer is calling for God’s will to reign over earth… doesn’t this seem kind of strange?
I know I missed the essence of your explaination; that was intentional. Really, God’s will is refering to everyone coming to have love/faith in God. And/or its a request that God blesses us (his blessing being his will).
But the way its phrased: “Thy will be done” “Thy will come to pass”
Its not a request… it might be viewed as a command or a promise (from people to God; to fulfill his will). After that its a request, but not those lines specifically…
If God reigns over all, how could his will come to pass… Wouldn’t it already be ‘passing’? Unless, as we have free will, its saying God’s will, what he wants us to do, we will choose to do. This of course gets into the age old ‘if God wants us to do something, why did he give us free will?’. I don’t really want to go that direction, but I think it needed mentioning. Because he wants us to choose it… (how can we know what God wants?)
I don’t know… the whole thing is just strange to me…
So do I, but not in the same way as you I don’t think (superficially at least. I think we, all, everyone might have much more similar ideas than it appears).
This I don’t understand; could you say more? I have a feeling this is the central idea I’m interested in…
Where God is, there he reigns and his will is done. He is in ‘the heavens’ but if he reigns here, he is with us too – in our midst. We’re not talking about geography or physics, but presence as influence. It is by allowing his influence that he becomes present.
At the same time, we are caught up in his presence which finds expression in the natural universe, even down to the intuition of simple men like me.
The prayer calls that the reign of God and his will come to pass in me, here where I am. The requirement is named here too - his name must be ‘hallowed’ or respected, honoured or revered. Only then will his reign and will come to pass in my life.
And yet again, his will is being fulfilled, with or without us. I’d rather it is fulfilled with me.
How can you be sure that you do not think in the same way as I do? Can you give me an example?
You know that you are conversing with a Mystic, don’t you
I am saying that the familiarity of the words shouldn’t make you think that we are talking about what is on the surface, our language fails to provide the depth of expression we need, but our visions need flesh and blood. That is why we are used to enact our own visions, although this gift comes from outside of us. Our visions are the anticipation of a potential we can almost grasp, but we must be stones of the house we want to live in.
The primary purpose of Christianity is re-birth so is internal rather than external. The Lord’s Prayer is really the request or personal reminder to allow ourselves to come into being as human beings where we have “I” and not just a collection of "i’s and Will rather than a collection of opposing small “wills”.
It begins with acknowledging the higher. This is what we intuitively know is beyond our being. Our being, as we experience it, is of the earth. We desire to experience the will of the Father on the level of the earth but we cannot. We do not posses the heart to connect them.
Man is necessary for “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” So how can we become able. We need help.
We need our “daily bread” which in this sense means “supersubstantial” bread. As I understand it, the word “daily” does not exist in the oldest known Greek and Latin text. So in the esoteric sense it is referring to food for a growing soul. Alchemy enters here but that is another thread.
Man has to become the bridge between heaven and earth. To do this, there cannot be any blockage between this intermediate level of the soul and heaven and the soul in relation to the earth. So trespasses must be forgiven in both directions to clean out the psych. We have to become open not only to receive from above but to give to below without the intervention of the ego. This is emotion of a quality beyond what we normally consider as emotion. At this level the sacred impulses of faith, hope, and love exist within us and not just move through us as they do now dependent on external influences and preconception.
This intervention of the ego creates the “expert” in us damaging not only ourselves but those in whom we have contact with… This higher knowledge tempts us through our egotism into this direction so the request is not to lead us into temptation but to freedom from this trap.
When this change takes place within ourselves, heaven and earth, the higher and lower, is united in us allowing God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven in accordance with their distinct levels of existence.
Naturally we are a long way from this but when the Lord’s Prayer is inwardly experienced, a person gets an inkling of their possibilities.
