“A duck is a robot vehicle for the propagation of duck genes” (Dawkins); so, wouldnt the logical conclusion of an intelligent species’ (such as man) evolutionary development and eventual dominance of its terrestrial environment be the establishment of a permanent protective bio-nano-technological machine-system for storing its own genetic code or DNA? species as we understand them are the external created organic machines that transport, carry, and protect the DNA of life itself, in a selfish way. life competes against all other life, and the “best” DNA wins, becoming stronger and earning its right to exist.
so in 10,000 years perhaps the earth will be devoid of all life except for a massive high-tech automated facility hundreds of miles underground, a storage facility preserving and keeping alive via advanced technology the human genome in its future (then present) form, evolving in a virtual information system environment within the facility, controlled and programmed to “compete” with all other possible variations of code and over time selecting for the most “fit” or ideal sequences, given certain preprogrammed subroutines of selection (strength, perception, awareness, mental fortitude, intelligence, etc)… man will have wiped out all other life on the earth, the atmosphere will be gone due to no vegetation, and man will even deliberately poison the earth and ecosystem such that not even bacterium can grow. this will be our ultimate and deliberate triumph over nature and all other life on earth, our own achievment of the evolutionary imperative to survive, grow, dominate, reproduce, expand the species, carve out a continually-more-efficient niche at the expense of all other life which is of a different type, species or subspecies.
“man” will then evolve only in his own system, protected from meteors and volcanic/tectonic activity deep underground below the earth’s crust, in a technological haven or coccoon where the DNA molecule of homo sapiens is the only remaining lifeform on earth. after achieving the creation of this technological coccoon, man will kill himself as he is no longer necessary… but before all men as living animals kills themselves, they will design the machine-facility such that the human DNA molecule continues to compete in a virtual environment with itself and within continually evolving virtual landscapes of challenges and obstacles, pushing it to mutate, adapt, and evolve so that eventually man will attain a degree of relative genetic perfection and supreme intelligence for his species. at that point the machine-facility will trigger the growth and birth of real living men again, from this newest human DNA, who are now capable of travelling across the galaxy and universe at will, continuing the mission to exterminate all other life which might eventually come to threaten humanity itself.
That’s great, but why would you bother sticking to our old DNA/organic chemistry templates…?
Organic systems have limits - arising simply from the materials used. Bone is a brittle platform from which to lift anything, however many muscles you strap to it.
Perception, why stick with eyes…? Even eagle eyes…? ‘awareness’, ‘mental fortitiude’ - what are those exactly, and how could you program a computer to recognise and select for them without it having to be a true AI…? ‘Intelligence’…?
What kind of intelligence is it that finds itself cooped up deep inside a near-dead prosthetic planet, playing virtual reality games…?
Trouble is, though you say
#1 - There is no such thing as ‘genetic perfection’, without specific context. #2 - Our species isn’t really very supremely intelligent, in that we struggle to remember anything over 8 digits numerically. Even if we iron out the wrinkles, genomically speaking, we won’t boosting mental capacity overly. Unless you go drastically warped and create something like the Mekon:
I think we’ll slowly slip into augumented human phenotypes: Composite exoskeletons, seamless intra-cranial connections to the web, allowing immense memory storage and processing etc. education shifting from rote-knowledge-based to applications and usage of gifted functions.
Specific ‘sub-species’ engineered for under-sea and hard vaccuum. Of the hard-vacc types imagine Jovian gas-miners and Europan ice divers.
I think our accepted definitions of ‘human’ and ‘machine’ will blur to accomodate.
Erradication of all other life…? Nah. We might re-locate them maybe, or digitalize them for re-creation perhaps at the very, very most. Assuming they’re okay with it.
Think of all the liberals we’d have to erradicate first, before such a policy could be pursued universally.
I actually fundamentally disagree with this interpretation. I think it caters to the psychological needs of the dominant liberal mass. This mass likes sex but does not like the “lust to dominate” (Herrschsucht). So it likes to think that the sexual drive is the most basic drive. And indeed, Nietzsche says that “procreation is the real achievement of the individual” (WP 680; cf. 681); liberalism is individualism. Even if interpreted solely from the perspective of procreation, a duck is a robot vehicle for the propagation of its own particular genes, not of “duck genes” in general; it’s not about the species, but the individual. That the continued existence of the “species” (“species” is a generalisation, an abstraction) is furthered by the individual sexual drive does not make it its secret object. The individual wants only to vent his force, to exercise his power. And even if, from the perspective of the individual, genetic propagation is his real achievement, from the perspective of the group it may rather be “mimetic” propagation. Genetic propagation is simply the dissemination of genetic information: it cannot pass down information about experiences, but only the genetic preconditions for those experiences.
[size=95]The brief spell of beauty, of genius, of Caesar, is sui generis [one of a kind]: such things are not inherited. The type is hereditary; a type is nothing extreme, no “lucky stroke”—
[WP 684.][/size]
The Nietzschean way, therefore, is twofold: first, to create the genetic conditions for the great human being; second, to create his environmental conditions…
The most logical outcome is that the universe doesn’t conform to an exact single variation of logic where it exists beyond the constructs of man’s own logical expiriences.
Another argument against this thesis is concerned with purpose or meaning. The clause “for the propagation of duck genes” implies purpose, intent. If the purpose of a duck is to propagate its genes, then meaning can never lie in individual ducks, as this is an infinite regress, an infinite deference of meaning. The Darwinian answer is of course that what matters is not the individual but the species. But how is the species or its continued existence meaningful? The Nietzschean answer to this new question is of course that the species can never be justified by itself, but only by its highest individuals. Such justification presupposes, however, that the individual need not be only a robot vehicle for the propagation of its genes. Now in WP 680, from which I’ve already quoted, Nietzsche says:
[size=95][P]rocreation is the real achievement of the individual and consequently his highest interest, his highest expression of power[.]
[emphasis restored from the manuscript.][/size]
Only feeling of power, i.e., “happiness”, can justify anything:
[size=95][“M]y happiness should justify existence itself!”
[Zarathustra’s Prologue, 3.][/size]
Is sexual pleasure necessarily the greatest pleasure? The highest feeling of power? Zarathustra seems to disagree:
[size=95]And just look at these men: their eye saith it—they know nothing better on earth than to lie with a woman.
[TSZ, Of Chastity.][/size]
What on earth is better than that? What gives the highest feeling of power?
Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries.
CARL SAGAN, Cosmos
The look on your face tells me that you need to eat more fruit and vegetables.
i agree. likely humanity would eventually evolve into a completely different type of being, with a new structure and chemistry that is more efficient or effective, or with less risks or weaknesses. i dont see any reason why this machine-system or ‘coccoon’ of the human DNA molecule would limit itself in any way to generating ever-higher adaptations for man. this would likely include revisions and changes that far surpass anything we can contemplate presently.
the “man” of the future under this system would be unrecognizable to us today.
it would likely need to be some sort of AI system in order to function successfully, or else extremely well programmed with near-infinite redundancy. all sensory, perceptive or cognitive abilities/organs would end up evolving out of their present forms and into new forms, perhaps surpassing anything we can imagine now. “eyes” as mechanisms for capturing electromagnetic wavefield vibrations of specific frequencies would likeiy first evolve to attain maximum extraction of information from within our present frequency limits within the entire spectrum of light. after this is achieved, evolution would extend the range of sight into higher and lower frequencies, until eventually man would see and interpret accurately every possible vibratory state of electromagnetic radiation.
this principle would extend to all 5 senses, as well as to new senses which may emerge. “awareness” would be registered by the ability of the organism to absorb, retain and effectively process larger and larger quantities of sensory and internal perceptive/cognitive information without qualitative degredation. the “limits” of thought, memory and the mind in general would be pushed progressively back further and further as man becomes an organisms capable of sensing all possible bits of information from his environment and processing them as efficiently and fully as possible. he would be aware of everything possible around him, with minimal ignorance of any sensory or internal-mental stimuli or phenomenon.
“mental fortitude” would relate to this, as the ability to not “go insane” or lose consciousness/focus/attention during mental processing. it would also relate to emotional stability with respect to the progressively-more-substantial systemic changes resulting from such large-scale processing power: man’s mind, ideas, concepts, thoughts and beliefs would all be changing at a breakneck pace, wiping out old schemas and patterns ruthlessly. every moment we would have access to so much more data than before that “everything we knew would be wrong”, and this spiral up the chain or tree of knowledge would require the emotional stability to prevent depression/anxiety/fatigue/illness/insanity/schizophrenia/etc during this unprecedented process of gaining more and more knowledge, of more and more redefining ourselves on fundamental levels.
likely a new internal communicative system would evolve to replace the use of emotion-molecules, and would transmit signals regarding internal body/brain states and changes far more effectively and fully. likely the use of emotion-molecules for transmission and storage of information would be one of the first major systems to disappear as the chemical-biological structure of man evolves sufficiently to allow for newer, faster and better ways of intercellular and cognitive-systemic intercommunication and relay of information.
all types of skills and abilities such as “vision” “awareness” “intelligence” etc could be coded for by virtue of a sensing environment which offers challenges to the human organism and registers every change in the holographic system as a whole, interpreting and decoding what it means when man “sees” something in this virtual environment, and how well he is able to cope with this vision or obstacle. likely, millions and millions of generations would live and die in this simulated environment before such drastic changes emerge from the human DNA molecule.
i agree, but that is why i said “relative perfection”. it is contextual and situational, and with relation to a maximization of extracted and processed information from reality itself. likely there is some sort of limit as to the quantity and quality of information that can be senses and processed by an organic system such as the body/brain of man… “relative perfection” would mean that man reaches this fundamental or chemical/biological limit to his organic functions. however, once this saturation occurs, successive generations in new environments of pressure and selection would push man’s chemical/biological organs and form into even higher realms, perhaps leaving the 4 dimensional for higher dimensional existences or more “pure energy forms” which are able to interact, store and process higher amounts of information more efficiently.
very much, as i said there will be nothing recognizable, externally or internally, about the man who goes into this machine and the man who comes out millions of generations later.
the evolutionary imperative of all life is to protect and extend itself and its offspring first and foremost; i.e. it protects and furthers its genetic lineage. this evolved in order to further the protection of the species itself, as the species is what is behind the individual DNA molecule. the individual unique menifestation of the species-type DNA strain is only a “point” along a chain of growth for the DNA molecule. DNA creates man, not the other way around (technically its both of course, but DNA creating man comes first, and is the primary function in the relation).
think of DNA as the living entity, which learned to construct proteins and molecules around itself for protection and reproduction of its informational form, eventually learning to create entire organic machines of trillions of interacting cells, each one governed by its own DNA master within each cell, directing the entire symphony. the DNA uses the organic machine for its survival and increased ability to interact with reality, which spurs evolution into higher (more efficient) forms (relative to its environmental factors); the organic machine must die, but not before it generates a new DNA molecule from the old one, modified, and gives birth to a new organic machine charged with protecting and propagating this new DNA “offspring”. similar to a virus taking over host cells and using them for its own reproduction.
so there is no respect for “life” or for “others”, it is only respect for the self and survival. however, our higher understanding allows us to see how DNA actually IS the human race and species, not the external organic machine that shelters and protects it. we are not our skin, but it is our skin which protects us from environmental hazards and allows us to live and move within an environment, to interact with it… in a similar way, DNA is not its organic machine it creates, but it uses that machine to persist and grow over time, a chain or living being stretched out across time with each individual “piece” slightly different than the one before or after, changing over time to be more efficient and successful at survival-- or perishing in the attempt.
man will attain this evolutionary imperative of complete control over his environment and complete elimination of all competition or threat from all other life. nothing else will use man’s resources or threaten him with its own genetic evolutionary path and adaptations. life seeks to dominate, through the individual but fundamentally at the orders of the species itself, through the individual DNA molecule. eventually i believe that this scenario i paint here in the OP is the most logical expression and outcome of this evolutionary species-based imperative: man will learn that he can recreate and secure his DNA infinitely better by constructing this machine-facility or coccoon and letting the DNA evolve millions of times faster in a simulated environment. man as living being would no longer be necessary, and would either kill themselves as their evolutionary imperative is completed (creation of the machine-facility), or continue to exist as caretakers of the machine itself, their only purpose in life to ensure its existence and operations to push the species DNA to increasingly more “perfect” “higher” and “survivable” forms.
liberals, as are all political or ideological forms of man, are merely expressions of the current weakness and infantile/immature nature of man as a species. “liberal” men (and ANY men who call themselves a member of some sort of ideology/belief/paradigm system other than the system “human species” itself) will be long-gone by the time humanity learns and EARNS the right and ability to envision and create such “coccoon” systems for his survival.
politics is a symptom of man’s diseased nature, of his weakness and relatively young age evolutionarily, and of what Nietzsche calls our “will to nothingness”-- such foolish childish things as politics will be long gone at the point when the human species is able to truly see reality and life as it is, without ego-filters or social conditioning or wills to nothingness or illusions. the world of the Overman is the world of the birth of the coccoon machine-facility as the highest manifestation and expression of the species-type man, via the highest possible expression of the power, growth and survivability of this type “man” (the type Overman, or the new human species “homo sapiens altissimus”, wise higher man, as evolved from homo sapiens sapiens).
Nah. Maybe I should have said there’s a limit to what organic chemistry can do, especially in terms of building materials. DNA->RNA->proteins. Kerratin (hair/nails) And enamel/bone are as esoteric as DNA can get really, when it comes to hardness. We are never going to come out of the womb with tungsten-carbide bones and kevlar skins, however useful they may be.
And anyway, even if we did have biochemistry able to manipulate metals etc. would you want to possess the kind of metabolism required to break it down…? A cow needs 4 stomachs just to breakdown cellulose in plants. How many stomachs would we need to process, refine and alloy the materials needed to make exotic bodyparts…?
Future man, under the tech, will be pretty much the same slob he’s always been.
Again, if we could do that, unless it was spacially impossible, why bother trying to force an evolutionary version…? Why not just piggyback everyone with an in-cranium AI…?
Why try to evolve people with wheels, when you can strap on a pair of roller skates…?
Three Times Great, if you don’t write science fiction novels, start. Seriously.
I wouldn’t say this is the most logical outcome. I wouldn’t even say that logic dictates evolutionary paths, so a computer (by today’s standards) would have a rough time simulating this. AI likely could use an artificial imagination to simulate trillions of instances of every possible incident–if it wanted to. What’s to stop it from scrapping the evolution simulation and going ‘Cyberdyne’ on us instead? From what I can only imagine, AI will be a tricky invention. So too will be free-energy: an AI supercomputer simulating everything possible is going to need an inexhaustible supply of power.
Although, as our level of technology increases exponentially, something such as this could start looking less impossible. We already have seed vaults and such, so preserving DNA doesn’t sound so outlandish. Forcing evolution in an effort to ‘perfect’ our species on the other hand… Perhaps future events will transpire leading to such a scenario. We can’t predict the future, however.
Simulating anything is actually rather tricky. Even the simplest of things have hundreds or thousands of properties to be simulated, many that haven’t been discovered yet. Simulations would inherently have ‘resolutions’ similar to a digital photo. The higher the resolution the more accurate the photo or simulation would be compared to reality. The stepping-waveform of an mp3 (simulation) compared to an analog sine-wave (reality) would be a good analogy as well. I would have to conclude that 100% accuracy would be impossible. I suppose the simulation could be rendered to an acceptable reality level and called ‘good enough’. But in essence, we would need to know everything about everything to end up with an accurate simulation. (Wolfram|Alpha is a baby-step in the right direction though. It’s not fully functional yet, but it’s still impressive.)
I don’t understand why the destruction of all life would be necessary. I can see it happening inadvertently if nuclear proliferation continues; but why would it be planned? I see this AI-womb being analogous to a life boat, a back-up plan as opposed to the prequel to the 4th Reich. It would reinstate an improved humanity in the event that most or all of humanity were destroyed.
I also propose that a +/- margin of error be taken into consideration when determining the most perfect genome, so we don’t end up with blond-haired, blue-eyed, sterile clones being manufactured by a computer. My imagination can’t even comprehend the travesty; it would be like ending up with a BSOD after the last human died.
It’s not only likely; nature has already begun its journey down this path: sciencedirect.com/science?_o … 1836511f4b
There are insects around the world with exoskeletons comprised of mostly zinc and other metals; and even our own bones are alkali metal. Tungsten-carbide bones and Kevlar skins seem to be extreme exaggerations, but natural materials could prove to be similarly exaggerated given time. Unfortunately, I don’t possess the imagination to suggest a scenario that could be simulated to yield such evolutionary results.
Assuming the system worked as described/intended, “man” would hardly be a fitting description. How related would we even be to our creation?
Another random thought I just had: How could trillions of instances of free-will be simulated? Or even a single instance?
“A duck is a robot vehicle for the propagation of duck genes” (Dawkins); so…
Dawkins assumes to think there is some sort of purpose planned… as if mother nature designated ducks to be only be a vessel. Dawkins discovered the purpose meaning and intent of life other than his own?
i dont believe that this is what he is saying, but even if it is, it is not what i am saying. there need not be a “purpose” in “mother nature” for DNA molecules to utilize organic protein structures (which DNA create) for their survival and reproductability. its all natural materialist interactions governed by set laws of nature that spur the growth, development and evolution of "life"forms from elementary elements over time, given certain necessary conditions obtain. its a self-organizing process of emergence, no need for a “purpose planned” at all.
Well if thats not the purpose then why do you logically apply it as the end logical conclusion such as here, as if it was the ultimate goal?
so, wouldnt the logical conclusion of an intelligent species’ (such as man) evolutionary development and eventual dominance of its terrestrial environment be the establishment of a permanent protective bio-nano-technological machine-system for storing its own genetic code or DNA?
‘logical conclusion’ just means that most likely future scenario that will play out, given what we know about the nature of life, reality, evolution, humanity, technology, etc. its a statement of probability only, that this scenario i paint in the OP is the most probable, and therefore the most logical conclusion for us to reach regarding the future of our species.
its not meant to imply some higher-order “ultimate goal” that supervenes on the process somehow. in fact, it is rather a statement in strict opposition to such things.
I understand that then, but I still don’t understand how the initial premise is not a “purpose” of life… If it is just limited to being a function of life as it is, then there is no logical conclusion why life would not continue to function as it does today for the future (unless you add some stipulations, is this when the apocalypse nears? The sun is going to explode and we want to preserve our DNA just in case another life form can revive the species?)
I’ve thought about things this way too. One way to travel at the speed of light, is to become light.
One facet of science (fiction) grossly underrated and ignored is force-fields. Star-trek has deflector shields and tractor beams, so too does Star-wars, even the seminal forbidden planet had the 50’s flashy-light version. I think only Ian M. Bank’s culture series uses fields with anything approaching novelty.
But these projected fields, massless, but structurally load-bearing presumably, could be used to build things. A portable house, for example. Or body. Or mind.
Interestingly enough though, if you got really, really good at it, you could use the same fields to build the projector of those fields. And another step, use the same fields again to create both the power processing source, and the projector as part of the final field artifact, and at that point you would have an independent, self powered and propagated entity of pure energy, massless, able to go anywhere just about, quick as a wink.
Well, our higher cortical powers have allowed us to looked beyond the simple need for survival, both by ensuring it, and by giving the resources to be able to think about more sophisticated things. Once humanity’s survival is threatened, I believe that would become an outcome. Otherwise, we’ll be contented with worrying about Jennifer Aniston’s new hairstyle.
Unfortunately, most will probably be worrying about this until the very end. I only hope that the small group of people that still know what a thought is, have the means to undertake such a project. Even still, it’s a small hope since I’ll be long dead before anything of this magnitude graduates from forum discussion to possibility.
