the problem of evil

[cba1067950]

after years and years of considering religion, well christianity i think the problem of evil is what did the thing in for me. i cant believe in it because of that one contradiction. the history of each religion helps but that i think is the pivotal point in any atheists arguement. so im kind of curious… why are there still christians or theists who believe in an all powerful monotheistic religion where god has intentionally created evil?

logically its one of the most blatant contradictions yet still the religions are rampant.

[Uccisore]

Well, I don’t think it is a contradiction. So that’s my answer.

[cba1067950]

why?

[Uccisore]

Why don’t I think it’s a contradiction? Well, cause I know what a contradiction is, and

An all good, all powerful God exists

and

Evil exists.

isn’t a contradiction. You could reason that it seems unlikely that both could coexist, or you could demand an explanation for how both could coexist, but there is no logical contradiction present. I’m free to say that God has some reason for permitting evil, and unless you can show that that’s impossible, it defeats the contradiction- even if I admit I have no idea what that reason could be.

[vm1]

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

[cba1067950]

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

coincidentally what inspired this post was a passage from dostoevski’s the brothers karamazov.

if i could id type the passage up. its the one where ivan explains to alyosha even if god is good and that there is some “good” in killing and torturing people that no human being would ever admit that thats true. no human being would as the passage explains let a child be ripped apart by a pack of someones hunting dogs for no reason. unless its put in the context of “the problem of evil” the jaded p.c. easy to talk about version… then… christians say of course… of course we need to kill people. nazis should use babies as target practice. romans should crucify people. genocide is fine. god says so. god is good thus murder is good. and the contradiction goes on and on and on.

[cba1067950]

@Uccisore

Why don’t I think it’s a contradiction? Well, cause I know what a contradiction is, and

An all good, all powerful God exists

and

Evil exists.

isn’t a contradiction. You could reason that it seems unlikely that both could coexist, or you could demand an explanation for how both could coexist, but there is no logical contradiction present. I’m free to say that God has some reason for permitting evil, and unless you can show that that’s impossible, it defeats the contradiction- even if I admit I have no idea what that reason could be.

its impossible. whatever that reason is god couldve done it an infinite amount of different ways. want to know how i know that? god is all powerful. thats how i know that. god can make 1+1= whatever he wants. thus its a contradiction.

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

“Irrationality” itself – is a small price to pay… compared to the great cost of self-change.

And “theists” are not just Chirstian/Islamist.

Dawk tried to avoid offending the already hypersensitive human Christian/Islamnic groups, by means of a critical error in the actual message. He says “religion”, (all religion).

As usual, an overly symplified, fettered message, is propegated, not for the same of absolute truth, but instead, for the sake of relative “truth”, and change, meant to appeal to the common, unconscious people…

[vm1]

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

coincidentally what inspired this post was a passage from dostoevski’s the brothers karamazov.

if i could id type the passage up. its the one where ivan explains to alyosha even if god is good and that there is some “good” in killing and torturing people that no human being would ever admit that thats true. no human being would as the passage explains let a child be ripped apart by a pack of someones hunting dogs for no reason. unless its put in the context of “the problem of evil” the jaded p.c. easy to talk about version… then… christians say of course… of course we need to kill people. nazis should use babies as target practice. romans should crucify people. genocide is fine. god says so. god is good thus murder is good. and the contradiction goes on and on and on.

Someone please tell me how to just qoute one part of a post haha, thanks.

First off, being rational has had just as severe consequences as being irraitonal. Let’s face it, religion is not the worst thing in the world. It produces bad and good, but so do most things, things we would call rational and say we believe in. So this idea you have that all must throw away what is irrational, like religion, doesn’t really make sense. And like i said before, being an athiest is not based on any hard evidence either, simply because u can not prove that God does not exist.

Secondly, to go ahead and say that Christians support nazis killing babies, genocide, and simple murder, is irrational in and of itself, and in fact pretty ignorant. I’m not calling you ignornant, im just saying that saying these things may be. Christians do not advocate these things, at least most do not. Just because Christians, or other religions, believe that God has a plan and allows evil, does not mean they support evil. Your taking religion, which is largely made up of people who just believe that God has a plan for there lives and the lives of others, and labelling them advocates of all that is evil in this world. That is not logical.

[jagermeister330]

First off, being rational has had just as severe consequences as being irraitonal. Let’s face it, religion is not the worst thing in the world. It produces bad and good, but so do most things, things we would call rational and say we believe in.

First off, saying that something is rational and it actually being rational are two very different things. Aside from that I think that to argue against you would require a definition of the very basic notions of good and bad that you’re using. I assume you mean them in a collective sense, as in the total good and the total bad, whereas any argument I would make would focus on individual good or bad. Of course, a collective good is simply a sum of all the individual goods involved.

[cba1067950]

@Dan~

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

“Irrationality” itself – is a small price to pay… compared to the great cost of self-change.

And “theists” are not just Chirstian/Islamist.

Dawk tried to avoid offending the already hypersensitive human Christian/Islamnic groups, by means of a critical error in the actual message. He says “religion”, (all religion).

As usual, an overly symplified, fettered message, is propegated, not for the same of absolute truth, but instead, for the sake of relative “truth”, and change, meant to appeal to the common, unconscious people…

i know nothing about islam or judaism so i address christians. not out of bias or dislike out of simplicity.

[cba1067950]

@vm1

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

coincidentally what inspired this post was a passage from dostoevski’s the brothers karamazov.

if i could id type the passage up. its the one where ivan explains to alyosha even if god is good and that there is some “good” in killing and torturing people that no human being would ever admit that thats true. no human being would as the passage explains let a child be ripped apart by a pack of someones hunting dogs for no reason. unless its put in the context of “the problem of evil” the jaded p.c. easy to talk about version… then… christians say of course… of course we need to kill people. nazis should use babies as target practice. romans should crucify people. genocide is fine. god says so. god is good thus murder is good. and the contradiction goes on and on and on.

Someone please tell me how to just qoute one part of a post haha, thanks.

First off, being rational has had just as severe consequences as being irraitonal. Let’s face it, religion is not the worst thing in the world. It produces bad and good, but so do most things, things we would call rational and say we believe in. So this idea you have that all must throw away what is irrational, like religion, doesn’t really make sense. And like i said before, being an athiest is not based on any hard evidence either, simply because u can not prove that God does not exist.

Secondly, to go ahead and say that Christians support nazis killing babies, genocide, and simple murder, is irrational in and of itself, and in fact pretty ignorant. I’m not calling you ignornant, im just saying that saying these things may be. Christians do not advocate these things, at least most do not. Just because Christians, or other religions, believe that God has a plan and allows evil, does not mean they support evil. Your taking religion, which is largely made up of people who just believe that God has a plan for there lives and the lives of others, and labelling them advocates of all that is evil in this world. That is not logical.

there are quote brackets at the beginning and ending of a quote. copy and past them to put the text into a quote box. then you can play around with the spacing. you can check it with the preview button.

when has rationality been detrimental to society?

rationality could more or less be defined as what is right to do. so id really like to see you give me an example.

im not attacking the value of religion im trying to understand why it exists.

its not ignorant. its the very definition of saying god has a purpose. if you worship a god that has a purpose and carries it out via the destruction of other people then you are directly support it. the christian god kills people whether its for a reason or not it does. blatant murder. there isnt a society on earth that has ever justified murder. human sacrifice… fine… self defense fine… war fine. even torture… fine. but murder of the innocent? never.

[Phaedrus]

Well, naturally if you advocate someone’s murder you have to rationalize why they aren’t innocent.

[vm1]

@cba1067950

@vm1

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

coincidentally what inspired this post was a passage from dostoevski’s the brothers karamazov.

if i could id type the passage up. its the one where ivan explains to alyosha even if god is good and that there is some “good” in killing and torturing people that no human being would ever admit that thats true. no human being would as the passage explains let a child be ripped apart by a pack of someones hunting dogs for no reason. unless its put in the context of “the problem of evil” the jaded p.c. easy to talk about version… then… christians say of course… of course we need to kill people. nazis should use babies as target practice. romans should crucify people. genocide is fine. god says so. god is good thus murder is good. and the contradiction goes on and on and on.

Someone please tell me how to just qoute one part of a post haha, thanks.

First off, being rational has had just as severe consequences as being irraitonal. Let’s face it, religion is not the worst thing in the world. It produces bad and good, but so do most things, things we would call rational and say we believe in. So this idea you have that all must throw away what is irrational, like religion, doesn’t really make sense. And like i said before, being an athiest is not based on any hard evidence either, simply because u can not prove that God does not exist.

Secondly, to go ahead and say that Christians support nazis killing babies, genocide, and simple murder, is irrational in and of itself, and in fact pretty ignorant. I’m not calling you ignornant, im just saying that saying these things may be. Christians do not advocate these things, at least most do not. Just because Christians, or other religions, believe that God has a plan and allows evil, does not mean they support evil. Your taking religion, which is largely made up of people who just believe that God has a plan for there lives and the lives of others, and labelling them advocates of all that is evil in this world. That is not logical.

there are quote brackets at the beginning and ending of a quote. copy and past them to put the text into a quote box. then you can play around with the spacing. you can check it with the preview button.

when has rationality been detrimental to society?

rationality could more or less be defined as what is right to do. so id really like to see you give me an example.

im not attacking the value of religion im trying to understand why it exists.

its not ignorant. its the very definition of saying god has a purpose. if you worship a god that has a purpose and carries it out via the destruction of other people then you are directly support it. the christian god kills people whether its for a reason or not it does. blatant murder. there isnt a society on earth that has ever justified murder. human sacrifice… fine… self defense fine… war fine. even torture… fine. but murder of the innocent? never.

This is probably gonna be my last post in this topic, cause i really do this that this evil and faith discussion is somewhat of a pointless argument. But ill just say a couple of things

When i was speaking of rational things creating as much evil in this world as irrational things i meant rational to mean an action or idea which had evidence to back it up. Where as faith as no evidence, so the person who has faith knows it is irrational, the person who is being rational (only to themselves, doesn’t mean others think its rational) have actual proof which they think justifies there actions or ideas. Bush might be an example of this rationalism…he thinks he had proof and evidence for his actions in iraq, he was being rational in his mind, in others maybe he was not be rational. Therefore, i meant that things done in the name of reason, or being rational, have caused much evil.

As far as your argument saying that the fact that believers think God has a plan which works in accordance with evil shows they support all evil which goes on in the world could be argued, however, we’d be getting into a much larger theological debate. We would have to dive into whether or not people believe God is only allowing evil to happen for his plan, or whether he is actually causing it to happen. HOWEVER…this is pointless because of what i have said earlier, and will now say again:

The fact that you make this argument shows, even though you made a good (though debatable) point with the supporting evil if you believe in God statement, that you simply choose not to believe in a God who would allow, or create evil. Thats fine, but other people are willing. People have believed in a God like this since (arguably) the beginning of human existence. All you have been able to prove to me is that God allows evil, you don’t like that, so you refuse to believe there is a God. Fine, doesn’t prove there isn’t a God. It proves there isn’t a God who you might believe in. Like I said, this argument is all about personal views and faith…and it can not be solved.

You will never able to use the existence of evil to disprove the existence of God. Never.

[Michael26]

Evil does exist. We all know that deep down. Evil means doing things in the incorrect way, just as goodness means doing things in the correct way. Religious teaching is about showing people the correct way to live life.

God has given us free will, and so for any decision we make, we could make the right choice or the wrong choice. I think God wants us to learn from our mistakes. When we make a wrong choice, bad things happen, and that teaches us to make better choices.

Eventually, good will triumph over evil, when we all learn to make good choices, with God’s help. Life is a wonderful thing. So ask yourself, would life be more wonderful, or less so, if none of us had free will?

[cba1067950]

@vm1

@cba1067950

@vm1

@cba1067950

@vm1

The only answer you will recieve from someone who does believe in God, even with the knowledge of either him allowing evil, or even having evil part of his grand plan, is that you my friend, have no faith. And then you will reply with “yes, i don’t have faith, cause the idea of a good God allowing evil is a contradiction.” And then they will say, “no its not, because i have faith that his overall plan is good, and that the evil he allows is necessary for the betterment and purity of those who believe.” You’ll have no reply to that, except that are being irrational, and thus the answer will present itself. Faith is irrational, its not logical, there is no proof for the argument of faith. That being said, you can’t exactly disprove faith either. Bottom line…this argument is pointless. Any argument between someone with faith and someone without it, when concerning things which require faith, is pointless.

no no… that is exactly the point. it is entirely irrational to have faith in something that is clearly a contradiction. thus why do people insist on being irrational? we’ve clear reasons why irrationality is a problem why its flawed and why it shouldnt be practiced. and yet… still exists. religion in this context still exists and a christian god still exists.

maybe i should reword it.

why do theists insist on being irrational?

coincidentally what inspired this post was a passage from dostoevski’s the brothers karamazov.

if i could id type the passage up. its the one where ivan explains to alyosha even if god is good and that there is some “good” in killing and torturing people that no human being would ever admit that thats true. no human being would as the passage explains let a child be ripped apart by a pack of someones hunting dogs for no reason. unless its put in the context of “the problem of evil” the jaded p.c. easy to talk about version… then… christians say of course… of course we need to kill people. nazis should use babies as target practice. romans should crucify people. genocide is fine. god says so. god is good thus murder is good. and the contradiction goes on and on and on.

Someone please tell me how to just qoute one part of a post haha, thanks.

First off, being rational has had just as severe consequences as being irraitonal. Let’s face it, religion is not the worst thing in the world. It produces bad and good, but so do most things, things we would call rational and say we believe in. So this idea you have that all must throw away what is irrational, like religion, doesn’t really make sense. And like i said before, being an athiest is not based on any hard evidence either, simply because u can not prove that God does not exist.

Secondly, to go ahead and say that Christians support nazis killing babies, genocide, and simple murder, is irrational in and of itself, and in fact pretty ignorant. I’m not calling you ignornant, im just saying that saying these things may be. Christians do not advocate these things, at least most do not. Just because Christians, or other religions, believe that God has a plan and allows evil, does not mean they support evil. Your taking religion, which is largely made up of people who just believe that God has a plan for there lives and the lives of others, and labelling them advocates of all that is evil in this world. That is not logical.

there are quote brackets at the beginning and ending of a quote. copy and past them to put the text into a quote box. then you can play around with the spacing. you can check it with the preview button.

when has rationality been detrimental to society?

rationality could more or less be defined as what is right to do. so id really like to see you give me an example.

im not attacking the value of religion im trying to understand why it exists.

its not ignorant. its the very definition of saying god has a purpose. if you worship a god that has a purpose and carries it out via the destruction of other people then you are directly support it. the christian god kills people whether its for a reason or not it does. blatant murder. there isnt a society on earth that has ever justified murder. human sacrifice… fine… self defense fine… war fine. even torture… fine. but murder of the innocent? never.

This is probably gonna be my last post in this topic, cause i really do this that this evil and faith discussion is somewhat of a pointless argument. But ill just say a couple of things

When i was speaking of rational things creating as much evil in this world as irrational things i meant rational to mean an action or idea which had evidence to back it up. Where as faith as no evidence, so the person who has faith knows it is irrational, the person who is being rational (only to themselves, doesn’t mean others think its rational) have actual proof which they think justifies there actions or ideas. Bush might be an example of this rationalism…he thinks he had proof and evidence for his actions in iraq, he was being rational in his mind, in others maybe he was not be rational. Therefore, i meant that things done in the name of reason, or being rational, have caused much evil.

As far as your argument saying that the fact that believers think God has a plan which works in accordance with evil shows they support all evil which goes on in the world could be argued, however, we’d be getting into a much larger theological debate. We would have to dive into whether or not people believe God is only allowing evil to happen for his plan, or whether he is actually causing it to happen. HOWEVER…this is pointless because of what i have said earlier, and will now say again:

The fact that you make this argument shows, even though you made a good (though debatable) point with the supporting evil if you believe in God statement, that you simply choose not to believe in a God who would allow, or create evil. Thats fine, but other people are willing. People have believed in a God like this since (arguably) the beginning of human existence. All you have been able to prove to me is that God allows evil, you don’t like that, so you refuse to believe there is a God. Fine, doesn’t prove there isn’t a God. It proves there isn’t a God who you might believe in. Like I said, this argument is all about personal views and faith…and it can not be solved.

You will never able to use the existence of evil to disprove the existence of God. Never.

the larger theological debate is the problem of evil. it encompasses the christian idea of what a god is.

simply put it doesnt destroy the christian religion. i dont care about that and im not saying it does. im not saying it even comes close. im just saying… why cant people realize the simple logic of the problem and accept reality? i could argue this in circles all day. in the end the contradiction will still exist. you simply cant logical compute that god is all good and all evil. its simply not possible. so why the insistence that it is possible? i dont understand it.

[The_Watcher]

Uccisor,

Why don’t I think it’s a contradiction? Well, cause I know what a contradiction is, and

An all good, all powerful God exists

and

Evil exists.

isn’t a contradiction. You could reason that it seems unlikely that both could coexist, or you could demand an explanation for how both could coexist, but there is no logical contradiction present. I’m free to say that God has some reason for permitting evil, and unless you can show that that’s impossible, it defeats the contradiction- even if I admit I have no idea what that reason could be.

I didnt read this whole post so corect me if this has been covered.

Yes but an all good God would never destroy and almost extinct his own creation, Nor would he tell a man to kill another and take his wife than smite the man because he refused to do so. Nor would an all good GOD burn a city and turn all within to salt for doing as he forbade them.

There fore Your God is not an all good God he even says himself I am a jelouse angry God, Which traits are outlined by his son Jesus as get this…Evil… Now I ask you again what all Good God are you talking about? Certainly not the Christian one…

[Future_Man]

@cba

its impossible [for god’s universe to require evil]. whatever that reason is god couldve done it an infinite amount of different ways. want to know how i know that? god is all powerful. thats how i know that. god can make 1+1= whatever he wants. thus its a contradiction.

so what youre really saying is that its a contradiction for a god to exist if he only wants good things for humanity, and no matter what the purpose for the creation of the universe was, he can accomplish that goal in absolutely whatever way he wants, including by only doing good things for humanity.

there are more options besides the previous paragraph and atheism. for example, a god who isnt omnipotent. uccisore, in his first post here, even admits that god isnt omnipotent, although only after a little interpretation i will now provide.

god is omnipotent to magically zap whatever he wants in the universe, he can zap a baby into your uterus, water into lsd. but he also exists in a place separate from our universe, with laws that are different from those in our universe (most notably the lack of the passage of time?). in this meta-universe, he is not omnipotent.

uccisore and any christian will tell you that god made the universe for some crazy purpose we cant fathom, and because of that purpose, he is required to damn us with the problem of evil. he does not have infinite power over the execution of this greater mission, or, as you imply, obviously that is a contradiction.

so youve proven that god either is not super-mega omnipotent or purely dedicated to hedonistic human masturbation. that is Not the same as proving that he doesnt exist. in fact i dont even see how it relates to the discussion of whether or not he exists at all.

for me, the thing that disproves christianity is how they say god wants me to believe in all the silly rituals and a book whose entire credibility hinges on rich people from over a thousand years ago, the descendants of which had no problem torturing and burning scientists because of the negative impact of their enlightening. but that has literally nothing to do with my belief in some sort of life-related creator.

lets say for some reason god needs us to learn to treat our neighbor like ourself. if there is no pain, no potential dearth of resources, no discrepancy between ultimate happiness and average happiness, no desperate criminals to ever take revenge on, no inferior people to ever take advantage of, would this really be a good way to teach people to treat their neighbor like themselves? if your math teacher only ever teaches you 1+1=2, have you really learned math?

[JennyHeart]

Technically, God has a “hand” in creating everything.

But God didn’t create evil like we start up a business.

Evil is more like a localized skin rash on the leg.

The local cells have a hand in the rash’s existence and it’s up to them to clean it up … with immune system help and the like as needed … maybe some prayer and meditation if deemed necessary.

Christianity’s presentation of evil may be more like God saying, “look, it’s the nature of things to be as they are, and all will be just great if you keep yourself clean and stay away from the poison oak, because if you don’t or accidents occur, it’s gonna itch, needlessly”.

[omar]

cba:
The Problem of Evil is an analytical problem, not an empirical one, so it can never shed any light upon the existence or non-existence of God or a unicorn, for that matter. You may have created grounds by which definitions of “good”, “evil” and even “God” should be reworked to better reflect the state of affairs as seen from a human perspective.
I believe the insistence on working out a rational schema on God leads to these and many other contradictions-- but these are formal contradictions, nothing else.
As such, we can say that, since there are natural catastrophes that God is not “good” in the way in which we define good. Perhaps, if God is omnipotent, then good and evil must be within his ability to accomplish. If he is incapable of evil, rendering mountains assunder and leaving dead children in the wake of hurricanes, then maybe he is not omnipotent, or limitless. He is limited by what effects his actions have in the world and those effects must not be bitter to us.
In any case, the modifications of any of these definitions does away with the problem of evil, though perhaps creating other difficulties for the logician.
Personally, the problem of evil is a real problem and a real hurdle for the faithful. I believe that no one can truly be said to believe until the senselessness of tragedy strikes him. It is there that fear of God either turns to love of God or hate of God. If theism still thrieves it is because, while the existence of evil is crippling, believing there is no God changes nothing at all and the world remains evil and worse, meaningless and out of any means to plead and obtain respite. That is quite a psychic burden.
But if you believe in God, in spite of the evil in the world, then you struggle with making sense of it all, but still can ask for justice for the conditions that afflict you. You can be like job in the face of nature’s destruction and ask God why did he let that happen. It may not resolve the problem, or compensate your loses, but psychologically, it allows you to heal and move on because in-itself, in it’s essential being, you believe, this life is good and evil can remain an evil.
If you simply believe that there is no God, then there is no evil, though really bad stuff happens. You cannot complain, debate, rage etc. A sense of meaninglessness can follow this. Senseless death. At least with God you can imagine reasons why things happened the way they did. Without God all you ever can know is how things tend to happen.
But, my conclusion cannot be finalised without adding that God is, exists, because of what He can do for us humans. A good that causes evil would not be accepted as God. There is no reason not to accept such a proposition other than taste. In centuries past, without much medicine and very few prospects in life, God was a remedy for our lack of effective means of changing our fate. Nowdays, with science and medicine giving us fewer deaths, many have found that the only real reason left is the afterlife, which God alone can give. But with better lives on this world, less people dream or need the afterlife.

God was just the means of explaining the magick of the witch doctor. Now, many just give science as an explanation and place their faith on it.