The Problem with Revisionism

There’s a problem with quotes here, but here goes:

Rather: Says the observant citizen who, since emigrating, realised how much in the dark he was and went looking. It took a decade for me to catch up with schooling, reading, and writing to various people that I met through penfriend sites. My learning curve started to rise exponentially, with the direction influenced by becoming a nurse, but continually spreading. I’m still learning, as we all are. Curiously, my wife told me that this morning, some expert on a TV program prognosed a future very similar to what I have said.

Reading the whole thing does help.

Until now, I haven’t ‘lumped’ anyone together, although I’ve regarded American politics for some time and ‘smoke and mirrors’. Trump’s intention has been clear for some time, with his praise of Putin and Kim, and initial enthusiasm for Xi Jinping, which cooled considerably. So, he’s not so much the ‘wild card’ that he’s been made out to be. He’s also following some pretty stereo-typed policies. In his book “Mein Kampf,” published in 1925, Hitler spoke, among other things, of his “living space (Lebensraum) policy in the East.” He built on the existing ideas about the East as a new settlement area, which you could also frame as being “important for our economy.”

When Trump didn’t rule out economic or military force, he was also saying that America’s priorities are above the priorities of other nations, which transliterates Hitler’s idea that the German people were “master race.” Churchill spouted some similar garbage, albeit being white supremacist in his case.

I don’t disagree that the media are complicit in recent political developments, and the whitewashing of policies as though it was what everybody wanted. My penfriends in California, Dallas and Tallahassee also expressed their doubts and concerns which led me to believe that some of the ‘rogue’ journalists I followed had a better understanding on the ground. John Pilger, for example, said, “I always look for the truth from the ground up, rarely from the top down. Journalists are never real journalists if they are agents of power, no matter how they disguise that role. Real journalists are agents of the people.”

I’m afraid your condescension rolls off me like water off a duck’s back. The fact is that empire has always disturbed the peace and called retaliation ‘terrorism’ or some other term. It was always the conquered who were the ‘savages’. I gave you examples of native Canadians visiting France in the 17th century and telling them that the French were the real savages after seeing the poverty in Paris. Your ill-informed allusion to ‘Kumbaya’ forgets that it is an African American spiritual known to have been sung in the Gullah culture of the islands off South Carolina and Georgia, with links to enslaved Central Africans.

In fact, you agree with me that the ‘arrangement’ is anything but good, and you would rather be ‘conquered’ by America, although it would mean an end to many things that make Canada exceptional. They are the same things that have bothered American politicians about Europe, including our parliamentary systems, and the fact that all ministers are elected representatives, not some billionaire who wants to play at politics. Health care and the many other benefits that are available to our citizens. I would rather not be conquered at all by a tyrannical oligarchy.

Now you are betting on both horses, and on the one hand you criticise my statement, but on the other hand you say, “perhaps its what we deserve.” Besides, I think that, if Trump and Putin have their way, it would mean the collapse of our economy, and the de-industrialisation of Europe and, consequently, a dependency on (probably) Russia’s policies.

I felt an inherent sense of injustice when I heard how my parents and their friends regarded the indigenous people I mixed with on the beach as a child. It wasn’t meant to be racist, but it was, because they had been brought up in Britain of the postwar period. Later, as the people came from former colonies, my mother encouraged my friendship with my Jamaican school buddy, and experiencing the resentment they felt when I visited him and his brothers in their home taught me a lot. Later, he visited me in Germany when he was in the army and told me that the racism was still a problem.

Of course, my experience began as anecdotal, but with the help of the library and later the internet, there are many sources to be found. Even between the lines of Churchill’s memoirs and those of others like him, you can find evidence of the accusations made against the colonists. I accept the fact that “they didn’t know any better”. But it doesn’t let us off the hook if we are still in a state of denial, and our right-wing media churns out its biased reports. There is a pattern, for example in Musk’s intervention in Britain, where the ‘grooming gangs’ have been a problem since at least the 1970s and are mixed race, not predominantly Muslim. Musk and the media don’t want to look at the whole scenario and help the victims by implementing the measure advised by the report, they want to review one particular case involving immigrants.

The more attention we pay, the better our chance are at getting to the truth. The ‘brainwashed’ are those who have stopped paying attention and follow instructions.

I am an idealist in this respect and know that my senses can be deceived and that what I see is, as it were, a *re-*presentation of reality, not how reality actually presents itself. I am aware that my perception is an interpretation of what my senses give me, often assuming the bias I have until I can discern whether I am actually seeing what I assume. I try to approach experiences with a ‘beginner’s mind’ and avoid my assumptions, which helped me greatly in nursing. In this regard, I was always the sceptic until I had reason to believe otherwise.

Exactly, which is why the pragmatist in medicine, for example, does what they can, given what they know, because there is often no time to speculate further. In nursing, especially in long-term care, we begin with a biography as best we can gather, and sometimes it is given by the children, who have their own perspective. This means that we ask those affected in whatever way possible, whether they share that perspective. Either way, these are perspectives, and another family member may have a different perspective. We therefore lay down no single perspective as ‘the truth’ and validate each perspective for what it is.

Hearsay is every report that is not personally experienced. Therefore, it may or may not be ‘true to life’ as far as the perspectives of those affected are concerned. This can only be ascertained by enquiry, and the result is still not ‘the truth’ but at best ‘in line with lived experience.’

Knowledge isn’t so much a myth as the memory of information given to me. How factual this information is, relies on whether I or someone I trust have checked with other sources. The truth content is then ‘in line with lived experiences’ or not. Knowledge doesn’t have the validity of a mathematical equation but is reliant upon confirmation.

I prefer the ‘flying by instruments’ metaphor that Bernardo Kastrup uses. Our senses are like the instruments of a plane that help pilots fly blind in bad weather. We have to learn to read them properly to safely land the plane. The truth content of the instruments is something that experience confirms by managing to land. The more often we do it, the better we get at it. It is the same in life, our trial-and-error approach is either validated, or our efforts show their inadequacy. This is especially true for those who become street-wise, and learn to cope with an aggressive environment.

What I have heard and experienced are perspectives of a larger reality. I am aware of that, but like I said above, when you make a point landing over and over again, you begin to trust your reading of the dials. There is always the chance that the instruments need to be recalibrated, which we shouldn’t neglect, which in my case means keeping in contact with people and reading the latest assessment of current and past affairs.

In this paragraph you start to talk down to me, which I feel is inappropriate. I have said above that information that I have not experienced is hearsay, and we don’t know each other well enough to ascertain whether we can trust each other. Therefore, I accept your judgement and in the case that you disagree, assume that you do not have enough experience to confirm my related stories.

I’m not sure what you are saying here. It is more a case of whether I have enough experience to say I believe someone, or whether I remain neutral towards a statement. Usually, on a forum, it isn’t lifechanging, so we can just let it go, or say, “Oh, that was interesting.” We might say, “I haven’t heard that perspective before, thank you!” It isn’t a question of ascertaining ‘the truth.’

During his 2024 presidential campaign, Donald Trump did publicly distance himself from Project 2025, stating he was not involved with the plan. Despite this, several individuals associated with Project 2025 have been nominated for key positions in the incoming administration, including Russ Vought for the Office of Management and Budget. This suggests that while Trump has disavowed direct involvement with Project 2025, elements of its policy recommendations may still influence his administration.

One historical case involving the killing of a UN envoy is a notable and complex incident rooted in the early stages of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the formation of the State of Israel. Responsibility was claimed by Lehi, whose leaders included figures like Yitzhak Shamir (later Prime Minister of Israel). Count Folke Bernadotte was a Swedish diplomat and the UN mediator for Palestine in 1948. He was tasked with negotiating a peaceful resolution to the conflict between Jewish and Arab forces during the partition of Palestine and the establishment of Israel.

Bernadotte proposed plans for resolving the conflict, including recommendations that were perceived as unfavourable by Zionist groups, such as international control over Jerusalem and allowing Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. Bernadotte was assassinated in Jerusalem by members of the Lehi (Lohamei Herut Yisrael, also known as the Stern Gang), a Zionist paramilitary organization. The killing was carried out by Lehi operatives, who saw Bernadotte’s proposals as a threat to the nascent State of Israel’s sovereignty and territorial aspirations.

There are more examples. Individuals like Rachel Corrie, an American activist opposing the demolition of Palestinian homes, died under disputed circumstances when crushed by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003. This is often cited as an example of the dangers faced by those opposing Israeli policies.

The problem with Western nations is that it is in their DNA to have a somewhat elitist attitude, something that Putin mentioned, as have various leaders around the world. The supposed moral high ground that the West told its citizens was the difference between Western nations and those like Russia and China or other nations with whom we have had disputes, has turned out to be a lie. We have been covertly conspiring, manipulating and overturning elected governments as much as anyone. The problem is that there are still lots of people who believe the propaganda.

At least with Trump, he doesn’t hide it, but that is little consolation if the tyrannical oligarchy becomes a reality for every nation of the world.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trumps-budget-nominee-project-2025-author-russ-vought-faces-senators-2025-01-15/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

“Falscher Brief”. Der Spiegel (in German). 1970-09-27. ISSN 2195-1349. Retrieved 2024-04-13.

Heller, Joseph (1995). The Stern Gang: Ideology, Politics and Terror 1940–1949. Frank Cass. ISBN 978-0-7146-4106-5.

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I was struck by this work as very demonstrative and insightful imitations, and must praise its substantial effect it’s bound to have on people, generally.

Where ‘I-eye come in is basic modular logic, because of the effected -affected reduced situation a men(know) type of character can ever perceive of any 5 year plan -assuming here reference to the UNnreport as it is limited by the time a singularity, may profess a general , re-vision on a sustained singular , logic that can and probably does form the new directions we are witnessing within individual partakes in the development of new fronts, namely most apparent in what goes on in Greenland.

The new imperium which waves of barbarians overturn are now exemplified by the new aristocrats of oligarchy , who adopt previous pre industrialized means of achieving status, nothing really new in that, it’s a mode of renewal, when the old forms stop :stop_sign: being grateful by relearning the dynamics of the mystique of participation, their will blunted by the accelerating velocity by which current memory fades inversely proportional to the rate by which the so called artificial memory responds in an effort to compensate.

For if it was not happening, the regress toward nil would depose the state of human affect and its resulting subliminal compensations below other species such as elephants, dogs , cats etc.

That behaviorism as a form of acting skill is behind the medium popular of the day, offers no surprise, when the primal determining cause of social states tends to have been proven as the motive behind the reduction of existenz’s human functions into the realm of the automata.

Automata can be understood not only in it’s literal function of production of goods and services, but in the increasing social reliance of fermenting factors that appear to violate pre-existing logic that newer models of modular logic has brought about analogically .

Your post is dense, abstract, and layered with complex ideas. However, I find it difficult to find coherence in structure and clarity, but that could be me.

You begin with a reflection on a work described as ‘demonstrative and insightful imitation’, suggesting admiration for its ability to provoke thought and influence society. This introduction hints at a broader critique of social structures or intellectual trends, but you don’t name the work specifically, and I’m left wondering if you mean what Gib or I have posted.

The concepts you mention, such as ‘modular logic’ and ‘singularity’, suggest a speculative exploration of future states of thought, governance or technological influence. Does this refer to advances in AI, decision-making frameworks or philosophical paradigms?

You seem to see a historical analogy between “waves of barbarians” and “new aristocrats of oligarchy.” This comparison seems to critique how old social structures are cyclically overthrown but replaced by similarly hierarchical systems, which I think is due to the same underlying forces: power.

When you write about the contrast between natural and artificial memory (“current memory fades in inverse proportion to artificial memory”), you express concern about the impact of technology on human cognition and social dynamics. This is of course true. It is sometimes worrying when you think about what people even two generations before us (our grandparents) could memorise. But I get the feeling that younger people are just memorising different things but inadvertently making themselves into ‘cogs’ in an automated system.

This feeds into your discussion of ‘automata’, which goes beyond mechanisation to suggest a metaphorical loss of human agency, critiquing the mechanistic nature of modern social and economic systems, with which I obviously agree. Similarly, your reference to “behaviourism” and “existence” (akin to existentialist philosophy) suggests a philosophical angle on the reduction of human life to automated or programmed behaviours, losing its inherent complexity and individuality.

If I understand you correctly, this seems to agree with my idea that dictatorial systems want this shift, and their arguments are too simplistic and based on obedient collectivism. The mechanistic concept serves the dictators of the world, and one only has to look at their displays of power, be it the Nuremberg rallies, the parades in Soviet and Communist China, where synchronisation of movement is as important as ‘Gleichschaltung:’ the establishment of a system of totalitarian control and coordination over all aspects of society, from the economy and trade associations to the media, culture and education.

But I repeat my issues with your writing, which is rich with jargon and layered ideas, making it difficult to parse. You use terms that require clearer definitions or context to be meaningful. As I have told you before, many sentences are excessively long and convoluted, leading to a loss of focus. So, I’m not sure whether I have adequately understood your meaning.

Thank you Bob for the pointy by point analysis of what meaning comes through in the subject matter contended and will shortly respond, , thank you.

I must confess, that it’s early morning here and still rubbing sleep out of my eye, and the revision to me is more akin to re vision, and that conceptual- phenomenological mix, presents the mode by which I have always operated, some consider my approach to be one that could place it on the autistic continuum.

A spinoff of that is free flow, of incoming ideas much the way Some modern novels, like Ulysses is written. And I must beg you for some time here, to elaborate on what I mean , for constraints are impressed on me that I can not avoid.

For in the opening paragraph the question of whether can trump pull it off? Is an added complexity that I haven’t really noticed, ergo you may infer that my comments in substantially prepared, and I think if you would hold that position then my manner of expressing a free flown consciousness that often times is seen/interpreted as bound by conceptual cerja, may not mean in a fixed way, within a single language, not less in a double sense,

wherein we both having our cognitive home language in a different existential mode; you in English, me in Hungarian, and the suggestion is not that such would eliminate the need for (more) clarity, but it adds an added complexity to communicate ideas, in additionally dealing with less than certain meaning roots.

The roots themselves are unearthed nowadays by

I wish I could switch reels, as it were and start again, without any reference to by reading the whole forum , and now that’s certainly in the works, but the flow that drives the way my mind operates, can not exclude the ideas of ‘magic’ that relates to our past takeoff to ‘Magic Mountain’ that for someone just tuning in, may mean less or none.

In fact I can’t exclude some knowledge about you, such as your prior nursing career, your wife’s loss, even the parallels between your own take on the Magic Mountain, and it’s significance on an extension of that magic, to others, in our case me.

Where does the element come in when the link between revision, a form of revised seeing, an idea MagsJ entertained, as a phenomenological ‘magic’ dynamic underneath ?

So with that , if You’re kindly patient enough to focus in using both conventional and modern ways to interpret a revisionary significant process, now a significant and currently appropriate search and commentary that belies Trumpism,

Where he is trying to revise , reform our perceptions to a past that most of us currently are unable to remember or maybe not even have lived through , ; our vision may not be our own, it may consist of what others are trying to impress on us, as if that was at all possible in a quasi democratic society.

Hi Bob! (once said Elon Musk :joy:)

So I guess we’re continuing this debate here, are we? That’s fine. But do note: I only intend on responding to you in the context of my original thread. I make no promise to honor the title of this one: “The Problem with Revisionism”.

Bob wrote:

Rather: Says the observant citizen who, since emigrating, realised how much in the dark he was and went looking. ← For what? A crystal ball that tells the future? → It took a decade for me to catch up with schooling, reading, and writing to various people that I met through penfriend sites. My learning curve started to rise exponentially, with the direction influenced by becoming a nurse, but continually spreading. I’m still learning, as we all are. Curiously, my wife told me that this morning, some expert on a TV program prognosed a future very similar to what I have said.

It’s an educated prediction, not knowledge.

Bob wrote:

Until now, I haven’t ‘lumped’ anyone together ← But you have. You lump people together by their nationality. → , although I’ve regarded American politics for some time and ‘smoke and mirrors’. Trump’s intention has been clear for some time, with his praise of Putin and Kim, and initial enthusiasm for Xi Jinping, which cooled considerably. So, he’s not so much the ‘wild card’ that he’s been made out to be. He’s also following some pretty stereo-typed policies. In his book “Mein Kampf,” published in 1925, Hitler spoke, among other things, of his “living space (Lebensraum) policy in the East.” He built on the existing ideas about the East as a new settlement area, which you could also frame as being “important for our economy.”

← Right, no layers of interpretation there. →
← When you have but one agenda–to paint Trump as worse than Hitler–anything and everything will be construed to serve that purpose. →

When Trump didn’t rule out economic or military force, he was also saying that America’s priorities are above the priorities of other nations, which transliterates Hitler’s idea that the German people were “master race.” Churchill spouted some similar garbage, albeit being white supremacist in his case.

Now, here, you know there are alternate interpretations. I even gave you one (not wanting to be tied to a promise he made to the press). For another, “we need to protect ourselves from Russia and China.” But I guess when Bob speaks, it’s no longer a matter of interpretation.

Bob wrote:

I’m afraid your condescension ← Condescension? → rolls off me like water off a duck’s back ← All the better. → . The fact is that empire has always disturbed the peace and called retaliation ‘terrorism’ or some other term ← Maybe, but it takes a lot more than just a label to codify it into law. → . It was always the conquered who were the ‘savages’. I gave you examples of native Canadians visiting France in the 17th century and telling them that the French were the real savages after seeing the poverty in Paris. ← And I believe that. → Your ill-informed allusion to ‘Kumbaya’ forgets that it is an African American spiritual known to have been sung in the Gullah culture of the islands off South Carolina and Georgia, with links to enslaved Central Africans.

Ah, you’re gonna be the language police now, huh? Well, fine. You pick a song. 99 Bottles of Beer happens to be another camp fire classic.

Bob wrote:

In fact, you agree with me that the ‘arrangement’ is anything but good ← Of course! → , and you would rather be ‘conquered’ by America ← Wouldn’t you? → , although it would mean an end to many things that make Canada exceptional. They are the same things that have bothered American politicians about Europe, including our parliamentary systems, and the fact that all ministers are elected representatives, not some billionaire who wants to play at politics. ← Play at politics?! That’s why he was elected! He’s a populist. And about bloody time! Remember, Bob, of the people, by the people, for the people. → Health care and the many other benefits that are available to our citizens. I would rather not be conquered at all by a tyrannical oligarchy.

By all means, go ahead and start singing Kumbaya. Let me know if they leave you alone.

Bob wrote:

…and our right-wing media churns out its biased reports

Is this what you mean by the media giving you a consistent picture? You mean, left-wing media gives you a consistent picture? And that right-wing stuff, it’s all bias, so it can be ignored?

Bob wrote:

The more attention we pay, the better our chance are at getting to the truth. The ‘brainwashed’ are those who have stopped paying attention and follow instructions.

Well, you’ve got a different definition of “brainwashing” than I do (and everyone else, I suspect). The more attention we pay, the better we know our own murals. Brainwashing is what happens when we let other people (like media) paint our murals for us. It’s a bit more than merely “following instructions” (except for maybe “believe what we say”).

Bob wrote:

Knowledge isn’t so much a myth as the memory of information given to me. ← But it’s more than just recalling our memories, no? → How factual this information is, relies on whether I or someone I trust have checked with other sources. The truth content is then ‘in line with lived experiences’ or not. Knowledge doesn’t have the validity of a mathematical equation but is reliant upon confirmation.

It’s reliant on more than that. The problem with knowledge is that it isn’t compatible with the statement “I could be wrong”. It makes no sense to say “I know X is true but I could be wrong”. It’s the equivalent to “X is right but maybe it’s wrong” which in turn allows for “X is right but actually it’s wrong.” Anything else works with “I could be wrong”. “I believe X but I could be wrong,” “In my opinion X is true but I could be wrong,” “Maybe X is right but maybe it’s wrong.” Your method of acquiring knowledge (gathering enough data until you’re convinced it’s in line with lived experience), I call the “good enough” method. You keep gathering data until you deem it “good enough”–which is usually the point at which you believe you can’t be wrong. But I don’t believe in that. I don’t believe there is ever a state of mind that simply cannot be wrong. I don’t believe, in other words, any amount of data or evidence is “good enough”. At some point, we fall back on faith. We simply gather enough data and evidence to make faith easy. Once it’s easy enough (or irresistible) we just let faith take over and we round up from “highly likely” to “certainly”. But this is faith, not knowledge, and it’s important to distinguish between the two.

Bob wrote:

I prefer the ‘flying by instruments’ metaphor that Bernardo Kastrup uses. Our senses are like the instruments of a plane that help pilots fly blind in bad weather. We have to learn to read them properly to safely land the plane. The truth content of the instruments is something that experience confirms by managing to land. The more often we do it, the better we get at it. It is the same in life, our trial-and-error approach is either validated, or our efforts show their inadequacy. This is especially true for those who become street-wise, and learn to cope with an aggressive environment.

The “flying by instruments” metaphor suffers this one flaw: we confirm a safe landing by looking beyond the instruments. We look out the window to see that we’ve landed. We feel the ground at our feet upon stepping out of the plane. We experience our continued being and say, “Yep, still here.” But consciousness cannot get beyond its experiences to confirm anything. Sure, we confirm our theories and predictions by comparing with actual sense data and evidence, but this is like comparing the readings on the plane dashboard with other readings from the same dashboard. If we’ve survived multiple times throughout our piloting career, it means the readings are reliable, but we’re still clueless as to what those readings are picking up in the real world. It could be a simulation. It could be a dream. There might not be a ground and our survival is only due to there being no ground to kill us on impact. In fact, if all you’ve ever known your whole life are the readings on the dashboard, you can’t even say what “survival” means in the real world. The real world may not even be physical. It might be purely spiritual. It might be purely digital. Maybe the Buddhists are right and the real world is just an emptiness. It might be something totally unfathomable and the way things work therein totally unimaginable.

Bob wrote:

What I have heard and experienced are perspectives of a larger reality. I am aware of that, but like I said above, when you make a point landing over and over again, you begin to trust your reading of the dials. There is always the chance that the instruments need to be recalibrated, which we shouldn’t neglect, which in my case means keeping in contact with people and reading the latest assessment of current and past affairs.

From left leaning sources, right?

You realize this is just calibrating your instruments by looking at other instruments, don’t you?

Bob wrote:

I’m not sure what you are saying here. It is more a case of whether I have enough experience to say I believe someone, or whether I remain neutral towards a statement. Usually, on a forum, it isn’t lifechanging, so we can just let it go, or say, “Oh, that was interesting.” We might say, “I haven’t heard that perspective before, thank you!” It isn’t a question of ascertaining ‘the truth.’

Right, but another option is to believe. But since this doesn’t count as knowledge, I call it faith. You believe the person on faith. And I should note: faith, to me, is not all or nothing. You can amass mountains of evidence and data to support your belief, and this counts towards making the likelihood of the belief being true highly probably (but still in one’s estimation only), but if you want certainty, you still have to make a (small) leap of faith.

Bob wrote:

During his 2024 presidential campaign, Donald Trump did publicly distance himself from Project 2025, stating he was not involved with the plan. Despite this, several individuals associated with Project 2025 have been nominated for key positions in the incoming administration, including Russ Vought for the Office of Management and Budget. This suggests that while Trump has disavowed direct involvement with Project 2025, elements of its policy recommendations may still influence his administration.

Ah, but now you’re arguing something different. Before you argued: “The difference is perhaps now that Trump openly wants to by like those people, and the manifest for 2025 threatens to attempt that = HIS GOALS.” Now you’re arguing that if Project 2025 is anyone’s goal, it’s Russ Vought’s. So Trump’s off the hook, and it’s Russ Vought who’s the real Hitler, right?

Besides, it’s Vought who’s working for Trump, not the other way around. If there’s anything in Project 2025 that Trump disavows, he’s not going to allow it just because it’s Vought’s baby. The article you linked me to below even has Vought stating that “his priorities will be Trump’s”.

And it shouldn’t be a huge shock that Trump nominated Vought for Office of Management and Budget since that was his office during Trump’s first term. Trump’s distancing from the project doesn’t mean he wants to distance himself from Vought or that Vought is incompetent. And his nomination doesn’t have to have anything to do with Project 2025. I think you’re reading too much into it.

Bob wrote:

In this paragraph you start to talk down to me, which I feel is inappropriate. ← You should see the next paragraph → I have said above that information that I have not experienced is hearsay, and we don’t know each other well enough to ascertain whether we can trust each other. Therefore, I accept your judgement and in the case that you disagree, assume that you do not have enough experience to confirm my related stories.

Naturally! And I don’t doubt your experiences; I doubt your interpretation of them (sorry if that’s “inappropriate”).

Bob wrote:

One historical case involving the killing of a UN envoy is a notable and complex incident rooted in the early stages of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the formation of the State of Israel.

Is this the story?

Historical Documents - Office of the Historian.

The Stern Gang sounds like a fringe terrorist group. In fact, the article states “Dr. Bernard Joseph, Military Governor of Jerusalem and Colonel Day an, Military Commander of Israeli forces in Jerusalem immediately expressed deep regret and concern and stated their intention to hunt down assailants,” meaning the gang did not represent the Israeli government or state, its position or policies. This is not a good example of Israel “killing anyone who challenged the idea of Israeli expansion” (if that’s even what Bernadotte was doing).

Bob wrote:

There are more examples. Individuals like Rachel Corrie, an American activist opposing the demolition of Palestinian homes, died under disputed circumstances ← Disputed circumstances? → when crushed by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003 ← Yikes! What a way to die! → . This is often cited as an example of the dangers faced by those opposing Israeli policies.

Sure, there’s dangers. That part of the world is a hotbed of militants and radicals (on both sides) so anyone openly raising controversial issues is getting themselves neck deep in hot water. Still, your claim falls short of implicating Israel itself, its government or its people, or even whether Rachel Corrie was challenging the idea of Israeli expansion, or if that was the reason she was killed (the wiki article says it was ruled as an accident).

Bob wrote:

The problem with Western nations is that it is in their DNA to have a somewhat elitist attitude, something that Putin mentioned, as have various leaders around the world. ← Sure, we’re proud of our heritage. Not easy to get rid of that. → The supposed moral high ground that the West told its citizens was the difference between Western nations and those like Russia and China or other nations with whom we have had disputes, has turned out to be a lie. ← I still have trouble believing Russia and China don’t also moralize (in a hypocritical way). They may not have the same morality, but since when did hypocrisy depend on what morality you hold? → We have been covertly conspiring, manipulating and overturning elected governments as much as anyone. The problem is that there are still lots of people who believe the propaganda.

My impression, Bob, is that you like to be exclusionary and generalized in your views. So as usual, my challenge to you is to narrow down your accusations to the bad actors who committed the crimes you’re leveling against the West as a whole and prove that they were indeed unjustified. And then, try, really try, to recognize some of the good things the West has contributed to the world and place that on the other side of the scale. Try to have a more balanced view. I can see you really don’t want to do that as you didn’t even address the first part of my point (about how the West has found a workable arrangement by which its people can live in harmony with its government–indeed, what we boast moral superiority over). With the amount of vitriol you must harbor for the West, that’s probably something you want to avoid like the plague. Here, I’ll give you an easy one: Rachel Corrie, an American, did some good in the world, didn’t she? Yes, it was just a small contribution, and tragically she died before she could do more, but she came out of America! Did the West do good there? And what about you? Do you not think you’re doing some good in the world, you wonderful Brit you? My whole point, which I’ll still press you to address properly, is that we can still draw a distinction between the good the West has done in terms of the type of societies it has produced (democratic, prosperous, free) and the horrors it has wreaked over the world outside those societies (this is an olive branch, Bob, a compromise). American and Western pride may be misplaced (or overblown), dampening the moral high ground we claim to hold, but it has its roots in something real. Is there a place for that in your view?

In general, my take away from this conversation is that you are unwilling to say “I don’t know”. And after reading your article here, I can see why. If this is what you do–whether as a full time career or a side hobby–you can’t take the attitude that “I don’t know”. You’re sticking your neck out, hanging out your balls for the world to see. You have to believe you know. But that doesn’t mean you’re right. I want to level the following critique. You’re right about the manner by which we amass data and evidence to draw conclusions. We land the plane, reading the instruments on the dashboard, and if we land successfully, we learn to trust the instruments. We do this over and over again until we feel comfortable reading only the instruments and trusting they aren’t steering us wrong. But you seem to be taking this and running wild with it. Sure, gathering anecdotal reports from the people you meet around the world and comparing those with reports you see in the media gives you some grounds on which to believe there is some consistency (maybe even accuracy) to the reports (both the media’s and those you meet). But you’re using the same reasoning to convince me you know what’s going on in the mind of Trump himself. That you know the future of the global balance of powers. That your subjective interpretation of Trump’s suggestion that Canada become the 51st State is a covert intention to annex Canada by force (like Hitler marching on Poland). I’m sorry, but reading your instruments and landing the plane successfully will only get you so far. I’m convinced that no one can know what goes on in the mind of Trump except maybe his closest friends and family members (who even then only get glimpses). It is not humanly possible, I’m convinced, to amass that much data–that many successful landings–to be that good at knowing. There’s a limit to what we can know (even you, Bob). We can make educated predictions that might even have a high likelihood of being true, but that’s not knowledge. It’s a guess coupled with a small degree of faith. We are all fallible with respect to guesses of this magnitude.

A quick reply because I’m busy:

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I’m off to Sri Lanka, so I’m not going to be able to answer for a while, but I’ll leave this (from a fellow Sri Lanka fan):

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It’s mystifying to me how an intelligent person like yourself can be taken in by a grifter like Donald J Trump. But these arguments with their long screeds of text seem like a waste of time. Political opinions are seldom ever changed by arguing according to my observation. Confirmation bias is a powerful phenomena. So I doubt that anything that I could say would change your opinion. Peace be with you.

.
President Trump 2.0 is no where near as ‘malevolent’ as you are making him out to be… a lot of the white noise was:

Such news and media outlets will be getting fined and/or banned… like they should have been in 2016, now that Mark Zuckerberg has revealed the extent of the media lies misinformation and suppression of Republican political campaigning literature.

…like, last year when I searched for Trump, all I got were hits for Kamala.

felix dakat

3h

It’s mystifying to me how an intelligent person like yourself can be taken in by a grifter like Donald J Trump. But these arguments with their long screeds of text seem like a waste of time. Political opinions are seldom ever changed by arguing according to my observation. Confirmation bias is a powerful. So I doubt that anything that I could say would change your opinion. Peace be with you.

()))((()

The mystery may diminish a bit when the difference beeeen switch and bait can be perceived by both:

The coming near the singularity, as perceived or, recognized by a singular viewpoint.

?!?
I

Bob, Nichiren Buddhism says pretty much the same thing in a more roundabout way.

methink

felix dakat wrote:

It’s mystifying to me how an intelligent person like yourself can be taken in by a grifter like Donald J Trump. ← You think I’m intelligent? :smiley: But these arguments with their long screeds of text seem like a waste of time. Political opinions are seldom ever changed by arguing according to my observation. Confirmation bias is a powerful phenomena. So I doubt that anything that I could say would change your opinion. Peace be with you.

And also with you, my friend. Glad to see we can still be good sports about it (though we shouldn’t let that stop us from philosophically scrapping with each other on ILP).

If you want to know how an intelligent person can be “taken by a grifter” like Trump, ask yourself: what does it tell you that so many intelligent people can be so taken?

Perhaps you have what Eric Fromm termed an authoritarian personality, and you think the country needs a strong man to whip the world into shape. That’s the image that Trump projects. The people who support him are the ones that buy into that image. He spent his entire adult life, cultivating it. He is a perfect example of the adage” Fake it till you make it” For years, he had a phony magazine picture on the wall at Mar A Lago showing him as the man of the year on the cover of Time magazine. He faked it until that became a reality this year. He makes PT Barnum look like an amateur.

felix dakat:

Perhaps you have what Eric Fromm termed an authoritarian personality ← Maybe → , and you think the country needs a strong man to whip the world into shape. ← Whip the world into shape? → That’s the image that Trump projects. ← No, it’s the image you project on Trump. → The people who support him are the ones that buy into that image. ← Ever heard of supporting someone for a particular policy? → He spent his entire adult life, cultivating it. ← Proof? → He is a perfect example of the adage” Fake it till you make it” For years, he had a phony magazine picture on the wall at Mar A Lago showing him as the man of the year on the cover of Time magazine. He faked it until that became a reality this year. He makes PT Barnum look like an amateur.

First of all, what sources are telling you this? If I could know, I’d be able to more discerningly tell apart how much of it is fact and how much interpretation (or down right lie). If, for example, a reporter at his house simply noted the Man of the Year photo, and then did some research to find out Time never published such an issue, I’d say there are several ways to interpret that. It could just be a joke he shares with his friends and family. It could be that he did do a photo shoot for Time Magazine, and they were going to put it on the front cover of their next issue, but at the last moment, something happened, things changed, and they went with someone else. But Trump got to keep the photo, so he framed it and hung it on his wall. Or maybe the reporter simply lied (we are in the age of disinformation). If on the other hand, this story comes from the horse’s mouth–i.e. Trump actually told the story himself–that rules out much of the above.

Second, so what if Trump practices fake-it-til-you-make-it? Isn’t that a good thing? Isn’t that the motto of most successful people in society? Isn’t it something that therapists sometimes prescribe to their patients? If fake-it-til-you-make-it works, wouldn’t you do it? Shouldn’t we all? If anything, maybe Trump should be taken as a roll model (perish the thought! :open_mouth: ).

But that’s not my image of Trump. My image of Trump is that he’s a brute. He’s not Hitler level brute, but he’s on the brutish side of what I think is normal US presidential behavior. I think he does veer on the edge of the normal range, but I’m not panicked that he’s going to do something crazy like kill 6 million Jews or starve a whole country like the Ukraine. He strikes me as very “gangster” (like you said) but also a family man (I mean, look at his kids compared to Hunter). And he’s definitely a shrewd business man, and runs the government like a business (is that a good thing or a bad thing? Idunno). I think he can be incredibly gracious when he’s winning, but bitter and immature when he loses. And I think he likes to play games with the press, saying things like “We’re gonna rename the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America”. ← I mean, I don’t even think he’s serious about that. I think he’s ego driven, not power driven; he wants to be great in the people’s eyes more than he wants control over them. And overall, I think he’s a good man for the job. I think he knows what he’s doing.

Now, I wouldn’t say I need a leader like that to “whip the world into shape.” I think I made it very clear in this thread that I agree with Bob in that America, and the West in general, has behaved (shall we say) less than exemplary when it comes to claiming territories outside its borders, but a president that can “whip his own country into shape” is just what the doctor ordered (and no, I don’t mean he should be a dictator over his own country). Either way, yes, he should be strong.

In any case, if you’re gonna psychologize me, I’ll spare you the effort and do it for you. Here: read this. Search for “Yikes! I’m not gonna go that far!”

It’s difficult for me at present in Sri Lanka where the Internet is unprotected and unstable to make a lengthy answer, but essentially, I’m a nurse and I look holistically at what is ailing my patient.

My patient in this case is Western Democracy and although it has never had perfect health, it is relatively young, coming from a family of democracies that were very different in the past, despite carrying the same family name.

This idea of democracy was born after a deep conflict with many deaths, in a time of great contradiction, idealism, and undermining mob structures that saw any weakening of its resilience as a danger.

So while on the one hand, Christian values, human rights, and freedom were promoted as the difference to Communism, the hulking menace that pretended to be creating an equal society, on the other hand, Western Democracy continued in the family tradition as an exploitive colonist, where its values were sacrificed to hold dominance.

Whilst this was going on, Western Democracy was also getting sick, parts of it was suffering deficiencies, others were bloating, and as soon as the struggle with the Soviets was over, this situation got worse. External influences were blamed, but from outside, it was obvious that internal influences were at work.

The areas where deficiencies were causing problems was said to be faulty, and that the bloated would let their assets “trickle down” but it never happened. Instead, it was claimed that such an imbalance was only right. That this wasn’t healthy for the whole was obvious, and the medications only fought the symptoms, not the cause.

In the end, through neglect, Western Democracy was so sick, that the bloated decided they should amputate, but fortunately, they realised they would bleed to death. So they continued to use every influence they had to convince the areas of deficiency that it would all be good. But even the medicines for the symptoms were withdrawn.

All attempts to promote cooperation were thwarted by the bloated, and it looks like the patient will die. The children have already started pushing it out of the hospital bed, wanting to replace it with the old style of former Democracies, but everyone knows, that they were only Democracies by name.

So, we try to persuade the patient to treat its ailments, but it looks like it will die.

Sure. What particularTrump policy are you supporting?

Don’t you think character matters?

Bob,

Your post answers a question I’ve been meaning to ask you: do you believe in restoring the West to its fundamental values, or do you believe in an entirely different system (like Marxism). If you’re trying to “resuscitate” Western democracy, it sounds as though you believe Western society is salvageable, meaning you wouldn’t abandon it for Marxism but would rather restore/purify it. Is this an accurate assessment?

Also, what do you mean by “they were only Democracies by name”? Do you mean we never had real democracy in the West? That America, the UK, Canada, etc., were no different than the banana republics around the world?

Felix,

Felix Dakat wrote:

Sure. What particularTrump policy are you supporting?

Closing the border, removing the Mexican Cartel, DOGE… definitely not the tariffs (that was stupid).

Don’t you think character matters?

It does to a degree. But I’m one to judge a person more by their actions, skills, past performance, etc., than their character, at least in a position like president of the United States. I ask, how well are they going to do their job, rather than do I like the person. But yes, a person’s character can be a predictor of what they will do and how they will perform. In Trump’s case, we’ve seen 4 years of what he does and how he performs, and relative to his competition (Biden/Harris), I think he leaves them in the dust (despite what one might think of his actions and performance in general). I will also state that the more people agree with me about the importance of performance over character, the less character matters. One of the main reasons character matters is because people believe it does, and so they support/vote for him based on his character. If no one believed this, no one would care about his character, and would support/vote for him based on his performance/promises.

In any case, my point was to counter your claim that “The people who support him are the ones that buy into that image.” ← I don’t think that’s necessarily true. A liberal family who’s had their daughter raped by cartel thugs who crossed the border illegally and murdered their son is probably going to vote for Trump due to his promise to close the border despite how much they may despise the man. The waitress who works two jobs just to make ends meet is probably going to vote for Trump because of “no tax on tips”. Americans who have family in the Ukraine are probably going to vote for Trump because of his promise to end the war. The truth is, the Biden/Harris administration did such a fantastic job of running America into the ground and ruining her reputation abroad that the American people are going to vote for Trump just because of the prospect that he can fix all that, despite how many of them don’t like his character.

Trump campaigned on how he was going to keep America out of wars. Then at his inauguration he embraced “manifest destiny” imperial expansionism. Isn’ t that what they call bait and switch? Threatening America’s allies with tariffs is a key part of his “art of the deal” strategy. It’s not incidental or insignificant.

For sure, Biden’s attempt to hang on to power thwarted the Dems ability to conduct a competitive primary nominating process which facilitated Trump’s victory. Harris was viewed as a proxy for him and his failed policies.

As long as most Americans are struggling to make ends meet from paycheck to paycheck, voters will keep voting out whoever the incumbent president is (or his proxy in the case of Harris). That was the biggest issue in the mind of the voters in 2024. What is Trump doing to change that, do you think?

felix dakat wrote:

Trump campaigned on how he was going to keep America out of wars. Then at his inauguration he embraced “manifest destiny” imperial expansionism. Isn’ t that what they call bait and switch? Threatening America’s allies with tariffs is a key part of his “art of the deal” strategy. It’s not incidental or insignificant.

And it worked. He’s given us and Mexico a 1 month reprieve, presumably because we got our act together and tightened up our borders. This tells me it really is about the fentanyl and the illegal immigration for Trump. But it’s the unintended (or maybe intended) consequences that confuses me (inflation for US consumers, counter-tariffs, etc.). ← He must have known that would happen.

Manifest destiny? Yes, he did use that term, didn’t he? But I can’t see Trump wanting to undo his first term legacy of no wars. He’s proud of that one. Once an actual war breaks out, I’ll eat my words (and that might happen with Gaza now, given Trump’s words–“we’ll just take it”–what does that mean? Military invasion? I guess we’ll see).

felix dakat wrote:

For sure, Biden’s attempt to hang on to power thwarted the Dems ability to conduct a competitive primary nominating process which facilitated Trump’s victory. Harris was viewed as a proxy for him and his failed policies.

That too.

felix dakat wrote:

As long as most Americans are struggling to make ends meet from paycheck to paycheck, voters will keep voting out whoever the incumbent president is (or his proxy in the case of Harris). That was the biggest issue in the mind of the voters in 2024. What is Trump doing to change that, do you think?

DOGE is supposed to cut government spending big time, which in theory will allow for major tax cuts (maybe even eliminating the need for income tax, according to Trump, but I think that’s a bit of a pipe dream). It also means less need to print money and so less inflation.

The tariffs are supposed to increase revenue to the same effect, but that’s confounded by price increases and the fact that such revenue will dwindle as more companies start importing from other countries or start producing domestically. ← A lot of moving parts in that one. It’s left a question in my mind: is there a sort of “sweet spot” that Trump is aiming for? A sweet spot by which revenue from tariffs can allow for large enough tax cuts that it actually outweighs the price increases caused by the tariffs AND the dwindling effect of the tariffs as companies stop importing from Canada and Mexico? I’m no economist so I can’t say, but apparently Trump believes it’s possible (not that he necessarily understands the dynamics of tariffs). And then, how well can Trump control the economy such that you guys end up exactly on that sweet spot?

And of course, there’s “drill baby drill”–nothing like a good oil boom to stimulate the economy and put money in the pockets of ordinary Americans.

Trump might have other tricks up his sleeve but the above three are what come to mind right now.