The Roots of Western Civilisation

It is commonplace to see Western Civilisation traced back to its roots in Ancient Greece. The Greeks are credited with inventing or originating everything from democracy, to most of the major forms of literature, to philosophy and science, not to mention the Olympic Games. This is held to attest to the brilliance of the Ancient Greeks, but I find I want to question that and wonder if it does not attest, rather, to the paucity of Western Civilisation.

It may be telling to look at the details rather than the big things. In science, for example, it is thought marvellous that one of the Greeks thought that matter consisted of atoms, an idea which resurfaced in the 19th century and has since become scientific orthodoxy. Perhaps one should be asking why it is that we have not come up with something different in the interim, and to wonder if atomic theory has only resurfaced because modern scientists are not above mining the past when they are short of ideas. (One sees this sort of thing happening in other disciplines.) The reply might be that atomic theory has become orthodoxy because it has been backed up by experimental evidence. I’m not convinced. I do not find it compelling that there might not be some other, possibly better, model for the substance of the universe.

Then there is the earth, water, air and fire idea, where some Greeks espoused the idea that everything is composed of these 4 elements. That seems very close, like it might be the father of, the idea that there are 3 states of matter, solid, liquid and gas, plus energy. I do not want to make too much of the detail. The main idea is that there are 4 substances, and then each generation of ‘thinkers’ just takes the idea and then makes a name for themselves by giving it a slightly different interpretation.

Mind you, when you think of the idea that all life evolved from fishes, which was suggested by some ancient Greek philosopher or other, one does not need to do much re-interpreting.

I find I can play this game with any number of ideas that go back to Greek times: i.e. if you abstract the main idea, or concept, from its detailed representation then you find that precious few new concepts have appeared since ancient times. All we have is modern interpretations of old concepts.

Then there has been much ado in the UK about the Olympic Games of late, not surprisingly, and that bring to mind the idea of ‘competition’. I have no idea where the idea that competition leads to excellence comes from, but the Ancient Greeks certainly were competitive, and the modern world has certainly not discarded that idea, quite the reverse.

A nice example of how competition works was offered by the film I watched last night: AVATAR.

Briefly, the story so far (I am watching the film in two parts, second part tonight): it is Sci-Fi, set on a distant planet where explorers have discovered large deposits of an incredibly valuable mineral. Big Business has therefore arrived, in the form of a mining company determined, by whatever means necessary, to get its hands on the mineral. Unfortunately, the indigenous population of ‘primitives’ are unwilling to have their world plundered and refuse to cooperate, i.e. relocate to some other part of the planet out of the way of the mining operations. This planet is hostile, as in off-the-scale hostile, and lethal to unprotected humans. Scientists have, however, come up with a way to make face-to-face contact with the indigenous. They have been able to grow bodies identical to those of the indigenous people and then to connect humans to these bodies in such a way that they can remote-control the bodies. Really, the humans more or less transfer their consciousness to these bodies, so that, to all intents and purposes, for the duration of the connection, the humans ‘become’ indigenous people and so can go about on the planet and talk to the real natives. These manufactured bodies are called Avatars.

The scientists are represented as benign, the good guys, who are interested in the marvel this planet has to offer, and who want to use persuasion to get the natives to make way for the mining operations. If the scientists do not succeed, then the military will do the job.

The main characters here are a human male, a disabled ex-marine, who ‘inhabits’ one of the Avatars, and a female native. He is the first Avatar – the natives are perfectly aware that these Avatars are not the real thing – that has been accepted by the natives, and he is given the opportunity to join them, to be initiated into the ‘tribe’. This means learning to do all sorts of horrendously dangerous things. This is a ‘lads’ world, a high-octane world, a world of challenge and counter challenge, a world of if there is a choice between an easy way to do a thing and a dangerous, difficult way to do a thing they choose the dangerous, difficult way – this is a competitive world.

The interesting scene is the one where the native female meets the ex-marine (I think his name was Jack) in his avatar. The avatar is totally at sea in this world, has no idea how to cope, and is clumsy. The female saves him from some predators but then turns her back on him and walks off. She is full of derision, calling him a baby, her voice loaded with scorn. This is a really bad attitude. This is competitiveness. This is a closed mind that is going to be forever trapped within itself, a closed universe from which nothing escapes and into which nothing enters. This is a mind which will never have anything more than what it was born and brought up with.

How she would have better reacted is to think, “Here is someone who is obviously not from this world, or any place like this. If he came from a world like mine he would not seem like a baby here. This is someone who can show me new things, who can tell me about other worlds, who can introduce me to new concepts and ideas. This is an opportunity to expand my mind.” To have befriended him would have been far more beneficial, and MORE FUN, than to call him ‘loser’ and walk off with her nose in the air.

This seems to me to illustrate very well how competitiveness hinders rather than drives progress and creativity and the like.

The scientists coming to this world, on the surface may seem to be exhibiting a different attitude. They see that there are interesting things going on in this ecosystem and want to study and learn. But take a closer look: they are coming to this world with the utter conviction in the superiority of science. They call the natives primitive because they do not have technology without ever thinking that this might be a different kind of being, that there may be a non-science based way of life which is every bit as advanced, or potentially more advanced, than their own. They do not leave their science behind and come with an open-minded willingness to learn. The only difference between the scientists and the female who turned from Jack with such scorn is that, instead of walking away, the scientists stay to conquer. One might say that they are even more aggressively competitive than the female. They have already managed to open a school, though I think the natives have boycotted it, and no points for guessing what that school would have been teaching! No, the scientist may wear a benign smile, but behind the smile is all the fervour of a religious zealot out to make a convert.

So, back to my original point, which was that we perhaps should not look with such admiration at the Ancient Greeks, but wonder why we have advanced so little, why things have changed so little, since then. It is very easy to feel self-satisfied with all this technology about, but being unable to see how we would have progressed if we had not been so competitive, without being able to see what our cultures would have become under other circumstances, we are merely running on self-satisfaction, and not on evidence of any sort.

Consider the thinking processes as well.

Democritus is sighted via documentation as the originator of the thought of a basic building block to matter and called it an atom. nobeliefs.com/atom.htm An interesting read.

Empedocles has been credited with a notion of evolution as an extension of his conceptualization of the cosmogenic theory of the four Classical elements. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empedocles#Cosmogony

Both these thinkers are sighted as being the originators of the conception, but their conception turned out to be incomplete in capacity to formulate a predictive model of how things behave.

So if these thoughts have existed for so long why has it taken so long to enumerate them more accurately? The lack of progress you speak of. Superstition perhaps.

Now it is quite possible that the notions of these ideas goes back much further then our capacity for documentation, further back into an oral tradition, so while they may be credited as being the originators of these ideas, limited by our capacity of documentation it is not in my thinking that they are the first to have had these notions. The notions themselves likely go back much further then our capacity for documentation permits. Roots are a tough thing to follow as they seem to branch out more and more the deeper they go. Where do you think the roots of the Ancient Greeks came from? If Greek thought had roots and you think we trace westerners roots to them would not their roots be our roots as well by extension?

When we think in terms of “ages” we sort of loose track of the continuum, don’t you think?

“Charles Darwin and Alfred Wallace were the first to formulate a scientific argument for the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. Evolution by natural selection is a process that is inferred from three facts about populations: 1) more offspring are produced than can possibly survive, 2) traits vary among individuals, leading to different rates of survival and reproduction, and 3) trait differences are heritable.[3]” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Evolution seems to be involved in how diversification of forms of life emerged but notions of evolution are dependent on life already having originated. In thinking it seems odd to use a theory of permutation to explain origination. One can say life evolves on the planet but evolution as a theory does not seem to be applicable to how it originated in the first place. I can imagine evolution as a theory of diversification but not as a theory that is applicable to origination. Something must exist first before it can reproduce and our current theory of evolution seems rather dependent on something already existing to diversify from.

And guess what? I don’t think it was “fish”. A lot of the details were missing from that picture.

Now to take on a less critical approach. The development of a babe into adulthood is not so much different in analogy to the development of life on a planet. The problem I run into within the thinking of evolutionary thought is at some point in time there had to be something to diversify from and evolution as a theory makes no claims to answering that question. Evolution can explain to a certain extent the diversity of life but it can’t explain its origination. Life, capable of reproduction, came first, before it could evolve into anything.

Also, I think you should watch that scene from Avatar again. I got the sense from watching that scene that Neytiri’s disgust was the fact that Jake Sully thanked her for saving him, when if he had been more aware, she would not have had to kill unnecessarily. Her disgust was with his attitude regarding life. To the Na’vi species in question, the things that were asked of him were not so horrendously dangerous. A squirrel does not think it so horrendously dangerous to walk a wire, a bird does not think it so horrendously dangerous to fly.

“One day while Neytiri is hunting in the woods, she spots an avatar and begins to stalk him. As she is about to kill the armed intruder with a bow, a woodsprite floats down and gently touches her arrowhead, telling her that the avatar is pure. She continues to follow the avatar because of this symbol. When the avatar is attacked by a pack of viperwolves, she protects him by fending off the creatures. The avatar, whose name is Jake Sully, tries to thank her for the assistance, but Neytiri angrily rejects him as she is forced to kill three of the viperwolves to protect him (all creatures are considered by the Na’vi to be children of Eywa). Jake asks why she saved him, and she says it is because he has a strong and fearless heart. Suddenly, dozens of woodsprites land on Jake. Amazed by what she just witnessed, Neytiri sees this as a good omen from Eywa and decides to take him to Hometree; the home of the Omaticaya clan.” james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Neytiri

I didn’t get the sense from that movie that competition was the motivation behind their relationship. Eywa as a god does not take sides. Perhaps competition and cooperation are differences in perception of the same coin. As you have not finished the movie I will not spoil the ending.

Thanks.

I enjoyed reading your very interesting contribution.

Firstly, without watching Avatar again, which is not on my agenda right now, I am in no position to consider your views on the motivations of the characters. I could be wrong and you may be right but I must at the moment reserve judgement.

Then you raised the issue of origins. The origins of life, or of living beings, is just another stage in the greater evolution of the universe. According to science, the universe began with the Big Bang which created the matter/energy of the universe plus space/time plus the laws of physics. Subsequently the universe expanded and its contained material evolved into stars and galaxies then into planets etc… The first stars were composed of simple molecules like hydrogen, but when they died and new stars were born from the remains more complex molecules were produced. Thus from simple beginnings complex elements and molecules evolved. Then somewhere, which may or may not have been the Earth, molecules that are the basis for life i.e. proteins and amino acids evolved. These proteins and amino acids then went on to evolve into simple single-celled living organisms.

Thus science provides an evolutionary origin for life. The origins of the Big Bang, however, are more mysterious, thought there is much theorising.

That describes the scientific view of the evolution of life, but science views life as merely a property of very complex systems such as single-celled organisms. If there is something more to life, something like a soul, something that makes it distinct from all other things in the universe, then science has nothing to say about that.

As to where the Greeks got their ideas from, yes I di think that many, if not most, of them originated elsewhere. For example, in another post of mine I suggest the possibility that the idea of parallel universes may have come from India. The Greeks had much to do with the Persian empire and that stretched from the Middle East to India, so the Greeks may well have picked up some ideas from that continent. Socrates had a famous encounter with a Jew which seems to have had a strong influence on him so it seems likely that he picked up some Jewish ideas. Then too, the Greeks much admired Ancient Egyptian culture and had had a lot of interaction with it. The Ancient Egyptian medical practices bear a close resemblance to experimental science and so one can speculate that the Greek’s ideas on science may have originated in Egypt.

You also wonder why it has taken so long, as you put it, to enumerate these ideas more accurately. The problem here is that this greater accuracy is not in fact progress, but is the result of declining mental abilities. These accuracies are merely detailed descriptions of things or ideas which take the place of insight. For example, science will tell you what a cat is by describing the physical being in great detail, but you will never “understand” what a cat is from that description. If you want to understand what a cat is, you had better go to native American mythology where the “spirit” of cat, where its peculiar nature is what is seen as significant.

All cultures’ bones can probably be traced back to a prior one, which in my mind is where traditions are borne - I think the ancient Greeks demystified existing concepts rather than invented/discovered them, but probably discovered/invented some too in conjunction with doing so.

You talk of the ancient Greeks demystifying; I talk of the ancient Greeks trivialising. What I mean is they took metaphor and reduced it to symbol. They took what was meant to be understood metaphorically and treated it literally. They took the sophisticated human world and reduced it to a simple machine world.