the state will program your children

[more_or_less]

@humegotitright

Now you need to unravel why “best” means a child being home schooled is not therefore “best” when the reason is religious or otherwise.

I’m unsure what you mean here… Do you mean that if it may be best for a child to be home schooled, then why is it no longer best when that home schooling is of a religious nature?

No, it’s really that the state is not well suited for parochial education. I assume we can agree on that.

@humegotitright

I wrote that I think the best form of schooling is telling a child all possible theories and letting the choose what they think is right.

That is impossible. Critical thinking is something that doesn’t even begin to emerge until the 5th grade at the earliest. Even then, its brief and rather shallow.

@humegotitright

It really depends what you are teaching though, I mean who would ever teach a child that 2 + 2 = 5. Or that a verb was not a ‘doing word’. I think what this topic is more about is ideas, rather than facts.

Theories are not facts, you seem to be wandering a bit. As long as the child can pass a standardized test… what’s wrong with parochial education?

I mean, there is no better education than one on one interaction, and an active mind will challenge anyone with an agenda. A child with an active mind lost in a pool of 25+ other miscreants will tend to become one of the miscreants over time.

@humegotitright

Unless you think religious freedom is less important than producing good little factory workers, in which case you’ve made your point. I’m not sure why you think or can claim that is “best.” Best for whom, the state or the capitalists? What interests are really being served by your argument?

Religious freedom is fine, but do you think raising your children as what ever religion you are is giving that child religious freedom? I would love to see how many kids, if never taught religious beliefs would upon reaching 16, choose to become part of any religion.

Producing good little factory workers is not the aim of education, at least it shouldn’t be. Producing free thinking, independently capable workers should be.

i fail to see how your opinion of parochial education takes place over another’s religious freedom and child rearing. I also think that “free thinking worker” is a contradiction.

@humegotitright

Now then, if you know your Dewey, then you could try to make a case that democracy will function at its best when the majority is capable of critical thinking. But how is that something that should take precedence over one’s religious freedoms?

See above. Religious freedom should be compatible with critical thinking. I don’t see why you think the two are at odds

Again, the point is not that a secular, public education is not the “best education,” but why that should take precedence over one’s freedom to have what we can both agree is “the lesser” of education, quality wise.

The point is that the child should be given access to the ‘best education’. It’s not up to the parents to decide a ‘lesser education’ is right for the child, it is up to the child.

You’ve not established why a public education is best for a religiously inclined family. Again, what is best for them?

[apaosha]

So how did the state end up producing you, exactly? Seriously, your cynicism is cute, but obviously wrong. No doubt we’d want the herd to be encouraged to be docile to a degree… how is that so bad a thing?

Not everyone is a member of the herd, yet the herd would like us to believe that this is not true; read some of Juggernaut’s posts, for example …

It is about crushing any sort of of unrest, not just keeping the downtrodden downtrodden.

[Xunzian]

    Kung-sun Ch'ou said: "Why is it that the noble-minded never teach their own children?"
   "The way people are, it's impossible," replied Mencius.  "A teacher's task is to perfect the student and if the student doesn't improve, the teacher gets angry.  When the teacher gets angry, the student in turn feel hurt: 'You demand perfection, but you're nowhere near perfect yourself.'  So father and son would only hurt each other.  And it's a tragedy when fathers and sons hurt each other.
   "The ancients taught each other's children. That way fathers and sons never demand perfect virtue of one another.  If they demand perfect virtue of one another, they grow distant.  And nothing is more ominous than fathers and sons grown distant from one another."  (7.18) (4A.18)

   Mencius said: "It's Humane music that goes inside people, not Humane words.  And it's virtuous teaching that wins people over, not virtuous government.  The people fear virtuous government, but they love virtuous teaching.  Virtuous government can win people's wealth, but virtuous teaching can win their hearts." (13.14) (7A.14)

   Mencius said: "The noble-minded teach in five ways.  They transform like rain coming in its season.  They realize Integrity.  They perfect talents.  They answer questions.  They cultivate themselves and so stand apart as examples.  These five ways are how the noble-minded teach."  (13.40) (7A.40)

[humegotitright]

That is impossible. Critical thinking is something that doesn’t even begin to emerge until the 5th grade at the earliest. Even then, its brief and rather shallow.

Which is why state education until this point is basic language, mathematics and skill development. It would also be the best time to indoctrinate young children in religious beliefs, they will take at face value as a trusted grown up is telling them it. Same way they believe in Santa Claus.

As long as the child can pass a standardized test… what’s wrong with parochial education?

Anyone can pass a standardised test, its what sticks that counts. It says something that from my own education at a Catholic School (Primary and Secondary), that I can remember half the hymn book better than I know anything above basic mathematics, despite attaining an A at Higher level.
I do agree that standardised testing is useful in assessing how much a child knows at any given point, but there is more to education than that.

You’ve not established why a public education is best for a religiously inclined family. Again, what is best for them?

It’s not about what is best for the family, its about what is best for the child.

[omar]

Hello Imp:

— the state will program your children, and you as a parent have no right to prevent it.
O- That’s right! What if I want to teach my children about Creationism?

— yes. we will program your children into a society of brain dead
O- When are children not under some program? Bring your children to Church…

— unthinking hedonists who only vote for totalitarian socialism under the guise of democracy… california is leading the way again.
O- Bring them to Sunday school and have them become unthinking conservatives who only vote for monopolistic capitalists fundamentalist Christians who indoctrinate them about who is “Evil”, slashing taxes while spending money in offensive, pre-emptive war, until a recesion is all but inevitable and then saddle the next few administrations…of course this is all wasted minutes of my life in a worthless pursuit. Arguments only strenghten true believers’ faith in the truth and purity of their honest Party…

— do you really think that the parents of america want to give control of their children to the state?
O- No, most of them hand them over to the Lord, and the Lord’s earthly representatives…Where else are we going to teach our children about the Truth, about our Lord Jesus Christ, about our True Origins, that the Earth is 6,000 thousand years old and that evolution is Humanism, Paganism, the Devil! Let us all hold hand and wish for a nation of Water Boys!!!

But let’s examine that link, shall we?

“Parents who lack teaching credentials cannot educate their children at home, according to a state appellate court ruling that is sending waves of fear through California’s home schooling families.”
O- Oh my God. The humanity!!! To demand teaching credentials from home-schooling parents. If the children turn out later to be educated by Elmer Fudd, later left with crime or welfare for option because the State would not protect them from their parents. Parents should have total control, right? Because their children never become society’s problem…

“The appellate court ruling stems from a case involving Lynwood parents Phillip and Mary Long, who were repeatedly referred to the Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services over various allegations, including claims of physical abuse, involving some of their eight children.”

O- What can I add? I guess the State should look the other way when the ones who cannot defend themselves get abused. Child abuses his child? No problem. Is that right?

“A lawyer appointed to represent two of the Long’s young children requested that the court require them to physically attend a public or private school where adults could monitor their well-being.”
O- Ahem…“You mean indoctrination without blows.”

“Phillip Long said he believes the ruling stems from hostility against Christians and vowed to appeal to the state Supreme Court.”
O- Of course. Asking them to be educated before they educate…“Do these lawyers forget we have all the instruction we really need? The Truth, The Word, Wisdom incarnate??? So what if they cannot enter Yale or MIT…can those students at those pretiged schools enter the Kingdom of God? Yet that is more important.”

“Public schools teach such topics as evolution, which Long said he doesn’t believe in. He said his wife spends six hours each day teaching their children reading, writing, math, science, health, physical education, Bible and social studies.”
O- Wait for it…wait for it…

“Court papers say Mary Long’s education ended at 11th grade.”
O- Better to have an 11th grade education than to be indoctrinated in evolution…Is that your opinion Imp?

“What’s best for a child is to be taught by a credentialed teacher,” he said.
O- He means indoctrinated teacher, right Imp? Indoctrinated as in having a grasp of evolutionary theory and an education past the 11th grade.

[Mastriani]

yes. we will program your children into a society of brain dead, unthinking hedonists who only vote for totalitarian socialism under the guise of democracy… california is leading the way again.

do you really think that the parents of america want to give control of their children to the state?

Strange that you state this in a manner of perceiving it as a new trend. This has been the method since the inception of the Industrial revolution, and nothing other than the superfluous wrappings have changed.

Especially considering the social depravity of the current era, most parents only want the children for a tax write off … so if the state controls their offspring, that much the better; they can be concerned with consumerism and orthodoxies of materialism … what else does an AmuriKan fool need???

[MagsJ (Surya Loka)]

The state will try and utilise it’s assets i.e. you, or make your life a misery if you do not comply!

Any state is only as good as it’s assets i.e. you, and the more that do not comply: the more the state will be under-achieving - it is therefore in the state’s benefit to harrass you into compliance…

The thing is… at what point will the state stop caring about individual uncompliant assets enough to leave them be? or is it ongoing just to spite the uncompliant infidel…

We are not a number… we are the state’s worse fucking nightmare!

[stoned_kazak]

Home Schooled kids are usually schizophrenic or something( I don’t know why it’s so popular in USA, everyone in Cyprus goes to normal school unless they have Down’s Syndrome). The State will program your children. That’s the education system… Well observed! Solution? Let’s all go live on a potato farm?

[Mr_Reasonable]

I do not have children, so the title to your thread is false.

[301.70]

I strongly suspect that the direction this thread took into Creationism is a false argument. Creationism is a total non-issue, it’s meant to throw you off the trail.

The overt CONTENT of school is actually very unimportant as there really is so little, a motivated illiterate can learn to read in a few hours, it’s the same for elementary maths, and the history and society is just filler-- the issue is the FORM of school, the covert teaching of authority and social structure.

This is even the case when open discussion occurs in class; the students are talking about nothing 9 times out of 10, they have no real information to make informed arguments with, they learn instead to wait for others to speak, to know their place in the group, to look interested when they are sitting uselessly for forty-five minutes, to follow the directions of the teacher, to ask permission to move from their seats, to please the teacher, to wait for the bell, to be punctual, and so on.

Home Schooled kids are usually schizophrenic or something( I don’t know why it’s so popular in USA, everyone in Cyprus goes to normal school unless they have Down’s Syndrome).

A community school is not the same as a factory school. The rod is also not the same as the sophisticated behaviorism that teachers employ against students. Teachers spend years in the universities, learning what? It doesn’t take a master’s degree to teach a kid how to write his name and add two plus two. An education degree is a degree in applied psychology.

[Rhinoboy]

@Impenitent

the state will program your children, and you as a parent have no right to prevent it.

latimes.com/news/local/la-me … 3621.story

yes. we will program your children into a society of brain dead, unthinking hedonists who only vote for totalitarian socialism under the guise of democracy… california is leading the way again.

They wont program my children.

do you really think that the parents of america want to give control of their children to the state?

-Imp

Sometimes I think that they do, but I’ve never experienced ammerica first hand