The suicide of logic

Well, here goes. Just registered to this forum a few minutes ago and I’m now spitting out my first thread. It’s a slippery little bugger that I’ve had in the back of my mind for quite some time.

For the sake of simplicity, let’s assume I’m talking about Aristotelian logic (I’ve had complaints for not making that clear in discussions about this). So, logic can never be truer than its’ basic tenets, right? I can say:

All dogs are mammals
All turtles are dogs
Therefore, all turtles are mammals

It’s perfectly logical, but it’s not true, because one of the tenets (all turtles are dogs) isn’t true. You with me?

That means logic can only prove that THIS is true, provided that THAT is true. Logic isn’t able to really prove anything, and most significantly, it can’t justify its own existence. Logic cannot prove that logic works. So how can we trust it? Just about all philosophical discussion seems to base itself on logic, but how do we know it can be trusted? Is it just that we don’t really have much of an alternative? That seems a crappy excuse unworthy of philosophy.

That Descartes dude tried to assume nothing, and start from scratch. So he started with the basic “I think, therefore I am.” But that’s assuming that logic is true. What if it’s not? It’s pretty hard to concieve, but it’s that what philosophers should be dealing with? Hard-to-concieve stuff?

Any thought? Can we really trust in logic?

As long as you set definitions, and those definitons are consistent, logic can work fine.

Just don’t get too carried away.

I tend to prefer observational analysis over logical analysis, but sometimes employing the latter can be useful.

whilst logic never technically “proves” anything, it may elucidate some previously unknown information.

For example, if you incorporate premises that you believe to be true, you may find some enlightening information.

If it rains outside then my window gets steamed up,
My window isn’t steamed up therefore its not raining outside.

Maybe I have some restrictions that prevent me from telling if its raining outside or not, but I do have the ability to look at my window.

p.s. remember to always distinguish between logical validity and sound arguments

the former being contigent merely on a set of axioms, the latter being dependant on the truth of both the premises and conclusions.

Well put, Yuxia.

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But that’s just the thing: How can you know that the logical relationship is valid? Logic “seems” to work, therefore we can safely assume it does? Logic has always worked so far, right? Since it has worked x billion times before and never failed, we can assume it will always work and never fail.

But here’s the kicker: that very argument bases itself on logic (of a sort). If logic is an illusion, maybe the true reasoning goes: Since it has worked x billion times before and never failed, we can assume it will never work and always fail. The thing is, it’s almost impossible to think about the world without using logic. Does that justify using an unprovable tool?

Is it even possible to philosophise without logic?

Exactly. The OP seems to be suggesting that logic is expected to produce truth - it’s just a machine. If you put true premises in, you will get true conclusions out. It cannot make things true that otherwise would not be.

To ari -

“Is it even possible to philosophise without logic?”

Yes, ari. It is possible to philosophise without bivalent, deductive logic. Read all of Nietzsche and report back to us. Your question will be answered.

faust

And note with care how Faust avoids saying ‘philosophy’ but rather writes ‘philosophise’. :slight_smile:

I think this is exactly what Godel’s incmpleteness theorems tackle: the structure of any logical system.

I’d love to be more rhapsodycal and conjure up a decent post, but you must excuse me, for I am hungry and my mom gets angry when I’m late for dinner.

Anyway, here’s a link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del … s_theorems

To obw - Very sharp. You are a technician, by which I mean very high praise indeed.

lol… thats very bad logic u got there mate :smiley:

please formulate a valid argument and proove to me that all dogs are turtles… and i’ll belive you… :smiley: when u say logic is wrong.

because for your other premise i can construct a logical argument… it goes like this:

All dogs give birth to their live offsprings.
All animals who give birth to their live offsprings are called mammals.

Thus… All dogs are mammals
:slight_smile: sorry this thread is pointless… someone please close it

Yes, precisely. One cannot coherently use logic to justify logic. To do so would be to implicitly assume the reliability of the logic used to do the justification. This assumption is itself a logical fallacy (assuming the consequent – assuming what one intends to demonstrate in order to do the demonstration). Therefore the force or substance of any sensible “argument” that is made to “justify” logic will not itself be logical (although if it is put into words it may rely on logic to some extent, inasmuch as an argument is put forth in language which depends implicitly on logical principles).

So if such a justification of logic is not essentially from logic itself, what might we expect it to consist of?

Yes, the justification of logic should consist of an explanation of why we trust logic. The root of the word “justification” is from latin, meaning “to make lawful”. Lawful actions are the ones that we as a community trust, actions that we believe will not hurt us. Similarly, a justification of logic is an attempt to persuade us that logic is trustworthy. But if we are fearful and obsessed with certainty we will ask to be persuaded that our method of determining trustworthiness is itself trustworthy, and then this persuasion will itself be called into question, creating a vicious cycle of second-guessing. The only way to avoid the vicious cycle is to relax our obsession with certainty. To perform this mental relaxation, we can say something like this:

Yes, logic is uncertain. I accept the possibility that my use of logic may one day lead me astray, even if I use the logic perfectly, because logic might be wrong and lead to very bad things. In fact, I even accept that I might abuse logic because I’m an imperfect human being. Whatever imperfections in logic or my use of it, they might lead to me believing ridiculous shameful falsehoods, it might lead to my world crashing down on me. Yes, they very well could! Perhaps if I use logic I will lose all my friends, become ugly, grow hair on my palms, and be banished to an 80s karaoke bar for eternity. Yes, it could happen! But these possibilities are just possibilities. I’m under no obligation to fear them. I can choose for myself whether I will fear that logic is untrustworthy and might lead to falsehood and bad things. I can decide whether I will let fear overcome my logical instincts. And yes, I am okay with the fact that logic is not ‘certain’. It’s still trustworthy, because I myself have deemed it worthy of trust.

You see? Most people do not obsess about certainty. Think of the people that you admire. Do you think they worry about whether logic is trustworthy, or do they trust it and move on to more interesting things?

Yes, we can, because we are not forced to fear and obsess about logic being wrong. For all we know, it could be very bad and horrible to doubt logic. There is no compulsion either way, for as the Greek Skeptics noted, most every argument, every possibility, can be met with one that leads to an opposite conclusion. These Skeptics concluded that because no argument is ever conclusive and every argument can be met with an opposite argument, it’s best not to believe anything at all. But they didn’t understand the true force of their own reasoning! We can turn their argument against them, as they themselves admit. We can say (ever so skeptically) that the skeptics themselves might be wrong, and that just because arguments are not conclusive doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe anything. You see, just because arguments are not completely certain doesn’t force us to avoid believing anything. That is a decision we have to make for ourselves.

If you ask what my conclusion is, I say be brave! You know you trust logic like a close friend, or like the bicycle you’ve ridden for years. Should you avoid your friend because you think it is possible he will betray you, or your bicycle because you think it is possible it will fall into pieces under you while you ride it? Of course not! Of course you are right and it is possible that these bad things will happen. Embrace that possibility, accept it and feel it in your heart. But then, realize that that doesn’t mean that your trust has to be shaken. You and you alone get to decide what you will love and what you will fear, what you will trust and what you will suspect.

aporia: thanks, very good post. I realised the logical fallacy of logic justifying itself after I posted. (Then again, it’s a logical fallacy)

Perhaps you’re right, but I can’t help feeling it’s unworthy of philosophy. “It might not be very good, but what the hell, let’s try it anyway.”

True, but most people don’t care about philosophy at all. I obsess about lots of things, certainty is just one of them.

As for the sceptics, my favourites in that discussion has always been the Pyrrhonic sceptics. As I understand it, it can be explained by asking the question “Is absolute knowledge possible?” to a sceptic, an empiricist and a pyrrhonic sceptic. The true sceptic says “no”, the empiricist says “yes” and the Pyrrhonic sceptic says “I don’t know”.

I realise that this might not be exactly what the Pyrrhonic sceptics were all about, since I’ve done no research on the subject, but it’s where I stand on the subject.

Eh, thanks for the tip, but I’m not sure I will. Nietzshe, along with almost all philosophical literature, is so mind-numbingly boring. Maybe I’ll read a bit to see if he actually manages to avoid logic.

Oh well - why read a book when there are message boards!

Thank you Faust for the compliment.

There is a thread somewhere where someone tries to argue that books are not useful, I’ll try to find it.

edit: ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … p?t=147559

I am not sure what “absolute knowledge” is supposed to be? Is it anything like certainty?

No empiricist would say that certainty is possible, because the empiricist would recognize that sense-knowledge is intrinsically fallible, and since, for the empiricist all substantial knowledge of the world is based on sense-knowledge, all knowledge of the world is fallible. But, if fallible, then not certain, so, it follows that for the empiricist, certainty is not possible.

Notice, by the way, the above is an argument, and it is logically valid (which is to say that its conclusion necessarily follows from its premises). Now, all of its premises are true (I believe), so, therefore, the above is not only a valid argument, but also a sound argument (namely a valid argument with true premises). And, since a valid argument with true premises (a sound argument) must have a true conclusion, it follows that the argument above has a true conclusion. That conclusion, of course, is that no empiricist would maintain that any proposition about the world was certain.

And, notice, by the way, that the above paragraph also contains a sound argument.

I think it is pretty hard to get away from logic in philosophy and say anything worth listening to, for if someone does say something, the philospher will always ask, “And why should anyone believe that”.

Socrates himself told us that we “must follow the argument wherever it leads”.

I am not sure what “absolute knowledge” is supposed to be? Is it anything like certainty?

No empiricist would say that certainty is possible, because the empiricist would recognize that sense-knowledge is intrinsically fallible, and since, for the empiricist all substantial knowledge of the world is based on sense-knowledge, all knowledge of the world is fallible. But, if fallible, then not certain, so, it follows that for the empiricist, certainty is not possible.

Notice, by the way, the above is an argument, and it is logically valid (which is to say that its conclusion necessarily follows from its premises). Now, all of its premises are true (I believe), so, therefore, the above is not only a valid argument, but also a sound argument (namely a valid argument with true premises). And, since a valid argument with true premises (a sound argument) must have a true conclusion, it follows that the argument above has a true conclusion. That conclusion, of course, is that no empiricist would maintain that any proposition about the world was certain.

And, notice, by the way, that the above paragraph also contains a sound argument.

I think it is pretty hard to get away from logic in philosophy and say anything worth listening to, for if someone does say something, the philospher will always ask, “And why should anyone believe that?”.

Socrates himself told us that we “must follow the argument wherever it leads”.

How this thread got so far without the mention of the scientific method is beyond me. For anyone not familiar with it, it has 4 steps:

(http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html#Heading3)

The purpose of this is to make sure that all theories start on what is known (1), follow logical arguments (2), can be used to gain knowledge (3), and make sure the knowlege gained can be observed in the real world (4).

Philosophy is the same as all other sciences, and a good philosopher will use this method in the creation/evaluation of a philosophy.

The difficulty of “experimenting” with philosophy is what has lead to the multiple views expressed by it, but we can still rule out claims that turtles are dogs.