The Value of Money

Machines perform simple tasks ‘better’, and an intelligent AI would surely see that as equally their limit!

What humans are; if AI had built all the machines man has including AI bots, it would naturally see that and all its other achievements as something more than any particular aspect of the equation. If AI is to be truly better, it would need to be better at art, poetry, music, physics, inventing etc.

My first challenge to AI

Write and perform a better LP than dark side of the moon! [of its genre]

Then invent a new genre equally special and peculiar ~ because how are you going to do that if you have no ‘chaos element’? A logical reasoned computer wouldn’t have an edge nor a deviant-like nature. So AI would surely give itself randomisers, it would notice that e.g. two teams of robot footballers would cancel out one another patterns of movement. A devious human would think of something random to break all that up, and it would do that in each instance.

Your turn; how is AI ‘better’ than human intelligence?!!! :slight_smile:


I don’t know whether you are of the opinion that I said that “machines are better than humans” - I never said that, but now I say: machines can many things better than humans - otherwise there would be no single machine.

Do you know any current human being who is able to build a gothic cathedral without machines? There is no one. Humans are not able to do things what humans of the past were able to do. Humans have been making themselves dependent of machines. And we can alraedy foresee that they will be not able to produce music without machines.

it is just a sad story that humans have been destroying themselves in this way.

The main point is - like I often said in my first machine thread - that machines do not have the negative aspects that human beings have, especially when it comes to work effectively, economically, thus in a profitable and frictionless way.

Hence I posted the following image (amongst aothers) several times:

Except when it comes to design. that machines can not yet do, absolutely. the aesthetic qualities built into the Cologne cathedral for one, may not as yet be duplicated by machines, well pardon, that’s not quite right. machines can duplicate but not yet originate. there is no machine artist yet, and probably never will be, unless a cyborg with that kind of capacity evolves, if, and that is a big if, if humanity survives the coming cataclysm. I am very optimistic it will, but machines have to be put into their place, they have to learn a dear lesson we have not quite mastered, that Al’s need to be checked for imperfections of character.

My text and even the picture in my last post are not meant pessimistically. I think pessimism and optimism have nothing to do with this theme. We only have to see what happens and consequently extrapolate what will probably happen in the future. Additionally, most human beings will probably not notice their extinction.

pessimism and optimism have something’s to do with this. In fact the whole idea behind the ancient digress between Aristotle and Plato forbears this difference. two strains of thought and then skip to the future w and zam. Scopenhauer and Nietzche.
Overcoming the depressive thought of letting go of the Romantic Period. The Romance has been sustained as do fairy tale illustrations of a long past
world of castles, heroe Knights, and magic. what has
happened is that machines have taken the place of magic, but a too real magic, leaving not much to the imagination. We have overcome this to a degree, but
the casualties are enormous. And led us into a
nihilistic blind alley , which has to be, now, replaced by machine thinking, in place of magical thinking. the ultimate question is , can an absolute Merlin machine be developed say in a few generations, to save us from the abyss? This will surely be a hybrid of some kind, this is probably possible and not too far in the future, either.

The Romantic period had nothing to do with depression. Depression is merely your interpretation. The Romantic period was a different period to the period of today. Now we have to “judge” anything and everything “optimistically” - it is like it was and is in all communistic and other socialistic societies. The period of Romantic was very much different to what happened after it. I do not want a commanded pessimism or a commanded optimism (besides: pessimism and optimism are convertible) or any other kind of depression of communistic and other socialistic societies. The Romantic period has very much to do with irony and also self-irony. Don’t confuse your situation with the situation of the people during the Romantic period.

No, in fact most places don’t, basically all countries at this point use Fiat money, in essence saying, it’s worth something because we say so…

Dollars, yes and no. Gold, yes and no.

Money existed long before the dollar*, and often was paper, though often it was receipts for gold being held in someones vault. From this comes banks and specie backed money.

Gold, would be fine to live without, in the sense of the extra price tag people place on it because it is “gold.” But, if we called the 79th element by a different name, it would still have it’s uses, and need to be in that spot… Gold has its value in part because of it’s place on the table of elements, it’s shell configuration causes it to be non-reactive and stable. This allows it to stay shiny, for a long time… To change any of those factors would require an alteration of reality, but I don’t think that is what you are talking about…

Society does function without species backed money, as is shown all over the world. Species backed money just acts as a limit on the amount of money that politicians can put out into the market… Which some think would be sweet, but it’s roughly the equivalent of playing pretend, which is roughly what fiat money is in the first place.

There is some mixed proof on this, while yes gold coins where used, they have found evidence of debt, which was only not represented by paper because of the time frame, for trade. Gold was an up step from that only because it was a representation of that dept, that could be broken up and passed around, then put back together without (much) loss… We now use paper because it is a step up, easier to carry, easier to understand, and it works in the same way.

The value projected on to gold is an illusion/delusion. Spain was destroyed by that illusion, driven out of one of the most powerful countries by it’s own misunderstanding of economics. Seeing the only value as coming from Gold (and silver) is known as Bullionism, and it’s like believing in the miasma theory of diseases, they where practiced at the same time, to the same results.


*It’s called the dollar because of the Thollar family, which was a rich family that used paper as receipts for things… The receipts would be passed around as “Thollar receipts”… The crazy ability of English speaking people slowly turned it into dollar… Which is why other countries use the name Dollar…

grateful for the diversion, however the value of money has much to do with the also e value exchanges which took place between what we used to visualize as the Romantic Period. And the modern.
Now we only see glimmers of it here and there in some people, or in museums. I was delighted to see that a museum here, the Getty, I believe, is having an exhibition of borrowed Turner paintings, a must see. Is art dead and buried, that we have to visualize a period in visiting representations of it? Are there not people today who still live as if the period was still meaningful and alive within their own sense of being? I would say yes to that, and there need not a confusion arose as a consequence, although. It takes a lot of,art appreciation to change the way things are looked at. To me surrealism is the most meaningful way to gap the ages, a visual stream, and a method this develops, very painful at diets, and visually excruciating, but then, one must not fear the method of this madness. Lest it becomes lost for ever. (Not the madness, but the method).I know You will disagree, however, disagreement is the bedrock of constructing reality, and really I do agree, to disagree.

[size=120]No. [/size]The origin of the dollar is the German Taler.


Art is as buried as God is - unfortunately.

I am afraid that most of them are “buried” too. If people do not see any sense in reproduction of themselves but merely in their own personal self-preservation (without reproduction) by misusing any other kind of life sense, thus if they are too hedonistic, too decadent, too nihilistic, then they are lost.

Yes, but art is as dead as God is - unfortunately.

I advise you against surrealism. But if it helps you personally and gives you a real sense, okay then … :wink:

I guess, you mean this in the sense of Hegel’s dialectic: thesis => antithesis => synthesis.

I hope, we are not going to derail this thread.



This thread reminds me of that classic Twilight Zone episode:

Think about it: What if we were able to manufacture gold such that it is indistinguishable from the real thing? Is it really all that far removed from paper money in that sense?

It would seem to be just one more consensus the human species has invented in order to facilitate the exchange of goods and services.

And then that is put into one or another ideological contraption like capitalism or socialism. No getting around political economy, is there?

The main point of people arguing against this OP, and I already brought it up, is that there is nothing you can back as currency on this earth that is made to exactly accommodate the number of people on this earth (it’s completely arbitrary), the abstraction to non-backed money that was controlled was a major innovation. Watch the films James posted.


I think people in 20 years from now will have far more time on their hands, artists and artisans of all kinds will be much in demand. The machines of the future will be able to produce unique items as easily as standard ones. Put the two together, + that human creativity is what we have which the AI don’t have, = far greater interest in all arts.

or, why wouldn’t it go like that?

Art is all over the place, in advertising and buildings for two really big ones. Movies, television, the simple process of aesthetics for a set is art (we also have computer animation now)… art is very ubiquitous. Not everything is art, but artists will certainly never be out of jobs.

The next episode is even better. It is about trying to get a man to shut up.

Yes, but with money the man didn’t have. Just as here you wish folks would shut up because you don’t have the arguments to make them.

I have a feeling the $500,000 wouldn’t have worked on you.

But interestingly all money gains its value in that same way … worthless until someone bets on it.

James, I haven’t tormented you now for months. Why in the world would you want me to begin anew?

Or, sure, let’s link gold, the value of money, dasein, conflicting goods and political economy to rational metaphysics.

So, first up, how would you define gold? :laughing:

Oh, but’s take this to another thread.

Humans have been having enough time for it for so long. So humans will also not do it " in 20 years from now" or later. The machines or nobody will do it.

Yes, the machines (the machines!) will be able and are already able to do that.

1.) Humans have been having enough time for it for so long (see above) and have been being decadent for so long.
2.) Many (probably all possible) things came, come and will come together in that case.
.__ So the machine replaced the rest, replace the little rest, and will replace the very little rest of human arts.

I hope that we will not derail this thread. Maybe we should continue this conversation in my “machine” threads or your “Internet” thread.