The Zeitgeist of our times

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
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Zeitgeist: the defining spirit or mood of a
particular period of history as shown by the
ideas and beliefs of the time…

Which is the how Hegel would have defined ‘‘Spirit’’
or as Hegel says, ‘‘Volksgeist’’ which is ‘‘National spirit’’
or Weltgeist.. Which is ‘‘World spirit’’
and what can we say about Zeitgeist and our own times?
as always, we must contrast and compare ideas…
thus we can see that the ‘‘times’’ before, the
Enlightenment Era and the Era of Romantism,
were two different Era’s then what we have today…
and before that, the entire Medieval Era and the
Renaissance…

We must compare and contrast these different Era’s…
If there is a ‘’‘Spirit’’ of the Medieval times, it was
found within obedience… one was to be obedient to
the powers to be, whether or not it was the State/King,
to the church, to god, to remaining in one’s place, the central
theme of the Medieval times was obedience…
and Obedience was to be the central theme within
the West until the Enlightenment…

In fact, one could make the argument that the last
500 years, since 1500, have been the history of
who are we going to be obedient to…
and it continues today within the current history
of Modern day America… the conservative and
MAGA crowd believes in obedience to the wannabe
King, IQ45… and others, like myself, believe in
democracy and the rights of the individual to
choose, there is that word again, to choose our
own fate, our own destiny… and if I choose to
link my own destiny with the state/government, it
is because I cannot met my own needs by myself,
The state exists to allow us to met our own needs…
the bodily needs and the psychological needs that
all, ALL human beings have…

I cannot by myself, meet my bodily needs of food, water,
shelter, education, health care and Love, and I cannot meet
my psychological needs of love, safety/security, of having
esteem, and a sense of belonging… for me, meeting
these necessary needs can only happen through the
state/government…that is the role of the state/government,
to help us meet our own personal needs…As the ancient
Greeks noted, the state is necessary for us to become human…
for one without the state, was a barbarian…

The rise of our own modern times began with the rise
of these modern political states, France, England, Spain…
and the question of obedience was fought over again,
who were we supposed to be obedient to, the state
or the Church? And which religion, ‘‘Lutherism’’ another name
for Protestant, or ‘‘Catholicism’’…the question of who
we were to obey, was fought for over 2 centuries…
the long wars between Catholics and Protestants, was
fought over this question of obedience…
But the question of who we were to obey, the
church or state, was a battle/war between the
16th and 18th centuries…in which the state won…
for better or worse… and the catalyst for the state
winning this war was the Enlightenment…

The Zeitgeist of the times moved from obedience
to the church to the obedience to the state…
the rise of nationalism is the story of the question
of obedience moving from the church to the state…
the Zeitgeist of our times is the movement of obedience
from the church to the state…this is just another
question of obedience…

The question of obedience to the state has come under
fire of late and that is the story of our modern times…
Why should we be obedient to a state, that has in our own
times, has engaged in nuclear bombs, Hiroshima, to
genocide, the Holocaust, to wars such as World War One,
and WW2…the state which has proven itself to be
‘‘ad hoc’’ of the moment, not of any duration,
lacking in principles, has been attacked by both the
left and right… the right attack has been exemplified by
the MAGA attacks on the state within the last 10 years…
and the current destruction of the American government,
stems from the MAGA hatred of the government…

the Zeitgeist of the times is quite different for the left
as it is for the right…for the right is trying to recreate
the Middle ages, with its emphasis on religion and
obedience to religion/god… but that is, frankly,
a dead horse… we cannot go home again…
and with the belief in god, being at an all time low,
we cannot return to the Middle Ages…
Something the right just can’t seem to understand…

the right/MAGA is destroying the U.S. government,
and not replacing it with anything… except some
empty promise of religion and god…
the Right/MAGA has no room in its ideology,
Zeitgeist, for other beliefs or values… there is but
one belief and it is what the Right/MAGA holds to be true…
the right has no room for any value or belief that
is different than what the right/MAGA holds true…
if one were to disagree with the right/MAGA,
they are called ‘‘UnAmerican’’ ‘‘Traitor’’ ‘‘Liberal’’
‘‘Communist’’… in the conservative/MAGA world,
there is no room for dissent from MAGA values…
it is all so, black and white, to the conservative…
But as a liberal, an atheist, I don’t subscribe to the
‘‘black and white’’ world that the conservative/MAGA crowd
believes in… the world is and will aways be, colored
by shades of gray… is there a universal, eternal value
that we must all believe in? I can’t find any values
that are universal, eternal, for everyone, everywhere,
every time…the Zeitgeist of our times is different
than the Zeitgeist of Ancient Rome or ancient Greece…
and different than the values and ideals of
other civilizations and nations…

What science has told us and conservatives/MAGA hates
is the new science that tells us that the world is not fixed,
set, determined… that the Universe is random, full
of probabilities, with chance playing a huge role in our lives…
and because the right/conservatives are already dominated
by fear, for that is the natural state of the conservative,
that fear drives them to deny, tear down any opposing values
that seems to be shades of gray, found within chance,
randomness, and probabilities…values that the 20th century
found within science… this is, in part, why the conservative/right
wing hates education, science, logic, rationalism…
science has brought us to randomness and probability,
and this is taught in education, especially higher education…
and this is why the right is engaged in destroying the state,
of which is in part, the values of the universities…
there is no right or wrong in education, just facts
and knowledge… and the right hates that…

the Conservative of our times in some vague attempts to
return to the early times of certainty and black and white…
but we cannot, cannot go home again…
the modern times/the Zeitgeist of our times is
found in skepticism, ambiguity, contingency,
and ambivalence and in the science of randomness
and probability… the story of our times is found
within Quantum Mechanics… a story that is
also found in our own modern times…
finding the connection between the one, the individual
and the many, the state… Quantum Mechanics is
about the very small and physics is trying to connect
the very small, Quantum Physics and the very large,
which is regular physics… how does the very small,
atoms and quarks, connect to the very large,
planets and galaxies… and how does the one,
the individual, connect to the large, the state/society…

both philosophy and religions have taken their best shots
at connecting the one/individuals to the very large, the state/
society… everyone since Confucius has tried to connect
the one within the state… and why hasn’t anyone really succeeded?

Because there are no universal, eternal values which connect
us individually to the state/society…
conservatives have tried to use religion/god to connect
the one with the state/society… but that has failed because,
at this point in time anyway, there is no religious
values to connect the one, individuals to the large,
the state/society…
religious values are also ‘‘ad hoc’’.. of the moment,
temporary, ephemeral… we cannot connect individuals
with religious values to the large, the state/society because
of the temporary nature of the religious values…
or need I remind you of the many, diverse religions
that has been around for thousands of years…
and many of those, in fact, most of those religions have gone
away… or who today prays to Zeus or Ra, or Thor?
gods that lasted for many years but they too have
gone away… such is the nature of religions…
they have their day and then they vanish…
and today, today we are seeing the movement of
the coming dissolution of Christianity…
it is hard to see being in the middle of the storm,
and yet, it is here… As Nietzsche wrote,
‘‘god is dead and we have killed him’’
and as yet, we are unaware of our crime…
we can no longer put our stock in a god we
no longer believe in…that is another Zeitgeist of
our times… the loss of the religious…
we just haven’t heard its final cry of death…
imagine our surprise when we find out we have
killed god… the discontentment we discover, will
be the Zeitgeist of that age… the future will not
be a happy place once we learn of our crime of
killing god… to a large degree, we already know,
in our hearts, that we no longer have a god looking
after us… and that we have killed him…

and if we no longer need to be obedient to either god
or the state, as the right wight wing/MAGA crowd
wants, then where does our obedience lie?
that is the 64,000 dollar question… after the state
is dead and god is dead, what do we believe in,
where does our allegiance go after these events?
as usual, the Kantian questions apply here…
''What am I/we to believe in?"

Kropotkin

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Man it’s a real job to read one of your posts. You just ramble on and on and on, making it almost impossible to know what the hell you’re babbling about. Most users here seem to have a clearer mindset, in the sense that reading just a few of their posts, I can guess what’s their stance in life, what’s their “philosophy”. I’m not sure you yourself understand your mind, so maybe that’s why it’s so hard for others to even try.

When you ask this from others it’s a very bad sign. Either you’re a believer [in whatever] or a fake. If you ask for a belief, you’re asking for a mask, for pretense. True believers don’t ask, their beliefs are ingrained in them, their beliefs guide them, their beliefs occupy such a huge space in their brains that there’s very little space for anything else.

All in all, the “zeitgeist of our times” seems to revolve around a return to times past. Some want to ressurrect old-fashioned conservative America, some want to recreate an urge for social revolution. Both sides looking for the past as a guiding light. Both despising the present, both defending, dreaming of a dark, terrible future.

If the MAGA crowd really wins, we lose. If the anti-MAGA crowd (“leftist”) wins, we lose. I think the solution, if we can call it so, is not with either side, as both are extremist and demand total submission.

As I said elsewhere, what we can do is being aware. Keeping our eyes open. Protect our brains against all the manipulators out there. I know you won’t accept advice for one much younger than you. But forgetting MAGA for a while also helps a lot. Opression generally benefits immensely when it manages to occupy most of your thoughts, most of your free time. Their mediocrity is somewhat justified when they see you waste your whole time thinking about them.

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If I had to describe the national spirit of the current modern United States I would say the words Late Stage Capitalism.

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On a spiritual note, I think that America lacks consciousness of what it has replaced. It is still unable to face the corpse on which it is built. That was a civilization of pure health - the Christian invaders were goblins compared to them - and ill health is what is bringing the US down now.

A far greater revolution than just a socio-economic one is required. But that will take a long time and very much sacrifice. Probably why Wilhelm Reich was the only Marxist that was ritually butchered. He was the only one that understood the depth of an actually functional revolution.

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PK,

You should run your text by Copilot before posting it here. Copilot says your writing is strong, by the way. I asked copilot to clean up your choppy text.

Copilot: Absolutely! Here’s a smoother, more polished version of your text:

Zeitgeist: The defining spirit or mood of a particular period in history, as reflected in the ideas and beliefs of the time.

Hegel would have defined this concept as “Spirit”—or, in his own terminology, “Volksgeist” (National Spirit) and “Weltgeist” (World Spirit). But what can we say about the Zeitgeist of our own era? As always, we must compare and contrast ideas. Looking back, we see distinct periods before our time—the Enlightenment and Romantic eras—each shaped by their own defining characteristics. Before them, the Medieval era and the Renaissance formed vastly different intellectual landscapes.

To understand the spirit of different eras, we must analyze their dominant themes. If there was a “Spirit” of the Medieval period, it was obedience. People were expected to submit to authority—whether to the king, the state, the church, or God. One’s role in life was fixed, and societal harmony depended on adhering to this order. This theme of obedience persisted in the West until the Enlightenment challenged it.

One could argue that the last 500 years—from 1500 onward—have been defined by the question: To whom must we be obedient? This question still resonates today in modern America. The conservative and MAGA movement champions obedience to their leader, while others, including myself, believe in democracy and personal autonomy—the right to choose our own fate and destiny. If I align my destiny with the state, it is because I recognize that I cannot meet all my needs on my own. The state exists to enable individuals to meet their bodily and psychological needs—needs that all human beings share.

Basic human needs—such as food, water, shelter, healthcare, education, and love—cannot be met in isolation. Similarly, psychological needs—safety, esteem, and belonging—require a broader community. The role of the state, then, is to support individuals in fulfilling these necessities. As the ancient Greeks observed, the state is essential for humanity; without it, one is barbarian.

The rise of modern political states—France, England, and Spain—reshaped the battle over obedience. Was allegiance owed to the state or the church? Which religion—Lutheranism (Protestantism) or Catholicism—held true authority? This conflict ignited centuries of war. Ultimately, the state emerged victorious, largely propelled by the Enlightenment.

Thus, the Zeitgeist shifted: obedience moved from the church to the state. Nationalism became a defining force, reinforcing state authority as the dominant ideology. Even today, the Zeitgeist reflects the ongoing question of obedience.

However, obedience to the state has come under scrutiny—especially when examining its historical actions: nuclear warfare (Hiroshima), genocide (the Holocaust), and devastating conflicts (World Wars I and II). The modern state has often proven itself ad hoc—temporary and unprincipled—leading to critiques from both the left and right. The right-wing attacks, particularly from MAGA, illustrate deep hostility toward government. Their movement in recent years has significantly weakened American institutions.

Interestingly, the Zeitgeist for the left differs starkly from that of the right. The right seeks to recreate the Medieval era, emphasizing religion and submission to divine authority. However, this pursuit is futile—we cannot return to the past. With belief in God at a historic low, a revival of religious obedience remains unrealistic—a fact many on the right fail to grasp.

The MAGA movement is dismantling government without offering a substantive replacement—merely invoking vague promises of religion and God. Their ideology leaves no room for dissenting beliefs. Those who disagree are branded “Un-American,” “Traitor,” “Liberal,” or “Communist.” To the conservative right, opposition is unacceptable. The world is viewed in stark black-and-white terms.

As a liberal and atheist, I reject this binary thinking. The world exists in shades of gray. There are no universal, eternal values that apply to all times, places, and cultures. The Zeitgeist of our era differs from that of Ancient Rome, Greece, or even past civilizations.

Science challenges these fixed beliefs—particularly with modern revelations about randomness and probability. Conservatives often resist these insights, driven by fear—a core element of right-wing ideology. Fear prompts them to suppress opposing views, especially ideas rooted in chance and uncertainty, which science has revealed over the past century. Their disdain for education, science, logic, and rationality stems from this fear. Universities promote knowledge based on observation and inquiry rather than rigid dogma, making them prime targets for conservative attacks.

Today’s conservatives attempt to resurrect early notions of certainty and absolute truth. However, this effort is impossible—we cannot return home to a simplistic past. The modern Zeitgeist embraces skepticism, ambiguity, contingency, and ambivalence—themes deeply intertwined with the science of randomness and probability.

This philosophy mirrors Quantum Mechanics, which explores the relationship between the small (individual atoms and quarks) and the large (planets and galaxies). In the same way, political thought grapples with connecting the individual to the broader state/society—a question humanity has pursued for centuries.

Neither philosophy nor religion has fully succeeded in answering this fundamental question: How do individuals relate to society? Conservatives have historically attempted to forge this connection through religion, but this approach has failed. Religious values are temporary, shifting with time, place, and circumstance. Just as ancient gods—Zeus, Ra, and Thor—disappeared, Christianity is now undergoing a gradual dissolution.

We may not yet grasp the full extent of this transformation, but as Nietzsche warned: “God is dead, and we have killed him.” The realization of this cultural shift will shape the Zeitgeist of the future. As society comes to terms with the death of God, discontent will emerge—an unavoidable reckoning.

If obedience to both God and the state becomes obsolete, where does our allegiance lie? This remains the $64,000 question. After these institutions fall, what guiding principle remains? As always, we return to Kant’s fundamental question:

“What am I/we to believe in?”

From Copilot, before encouraging you to keep writing and complimenting your writing as strong: I hope this revision makes the ideas more coherent while maintaining the original meaning! Let me know if you’d like any further refinements. :blush:

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Ichthus 77, let me be very clear about this,
I have not nor will I ever, EVER use AI to
‘‘improve’’ my writing… I have ZERO interest
in using another source to help me write…
I think using another source like this is, in no
particular order, Lazy, deceptive, disingenuous,
deceiving, and very, very misleading…
it is no longer my writing but a machine’s writing…
I can’t even take credit for it… So, thanks, but no thanks…

Kropotkin

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Can you tell me one example where the way copilot said it was not the way you meant it?

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Ichthus77:
Can you tell me one example where the way copilot said it was not the way you meant it?

K: I have no, NO interest in using a machine to help me write… it doesn’t matter
if it is accurate or not…

Kropotkin

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It’s still you. It’s just like a makeover that makes you easier on the eyes.

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Duh…

Thats what a zeitgeist is … “of our times”
You mean its the zeitgeist.

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This nation is all about money, easy financial schemes, war, capitalism, social popularity contests, materialism, vanity, deception, hedonism, exploitation, propaganda, economic classism, consumerism, and narcissism. There is nothing else.

When people understand that they’ll under the modern United States more better along with the majority of people that live in it.

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There are still remainders of the old, better America but I am sad to see they are really disappearing. Fixed is right, the new generations have no idea what earthy magical greatness and supreme healthfulness and actual freedom came before them. All people see today is glowing stuff on a screen held up 2 inches from their face. Today’s ‘real world’ is dystopian beyond anything Orwell imagined.

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I grew up in the Midwest myself, I’ve seen first hand growing up small farming communities becoming bankrupted as all of the farms get bought up by private corporations or where local domestic industry is sold overseas leaving behind completely abandoned later on condemned warehouses and factories. The cultural poverty and depression it leaves in the local population overtime as well.

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Nixon started the mass selling-out of America by opening up economics with China. But it really escalated with Reagan’s beginning the domestic debt-slavery trap (lowering taxes but not reducing government spending, hence ballooning national debts and deficits) and later Clinton and NAFTA.

After that, it is just… dominoes. Rocks falling downhill due to gravity. This has been accumulating so long, this essential damage, that no one can really stop the ultimate consequences anymore. It is even more sad there are people alive today who actually remember how it was back in the 1960s-70s and before, when we were a free and prosperous nation. I wonder what those old folks must be feeling right now… probably emotions the likes of you and me will never have the privilege of experiencing.