Theism vs. Deism?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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The question is:
Does God (suggesting that there is a God) really communicate with Mankind?

When I say God, I mean the concept of the monotheistic, pluralistic, sovereign deity that we see in such religions as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, as well as others. We have seen, throughout history, many claim revelation from Him and many claim to have had supernatural contact/relations with Him. Those whom have made these claims (Muhammed, Jesus, Paul, Moses, Isaiah), have been inconsistent with or have added to that of previous prophets’ claims. Each claiming their own experience or message from God was the infallible truth. All of them cannot be correct, just as the many religions, denominations, doctrines, and especially the billions of individual personal beliefs cannot all be truth. There can only be one truth.

So the question again is if God were communicating with us, why is He so unclear with His message? Shouldn’t the truth He is communicating be so evident to all mankind that we must all accept it as the undeniable truth? If that were so, then there would be no misconceptions as to who He is or if he is real by anyone.

I am not intending to question God, but only to question man’s diverse and varying conception of God. God is and so will be and forever has been. Man is inconsistent, finite, and limited in perception. As humans, we can only conceive that which we are presented with or that which we have imagined. All else is left to the revelation of a greater form of being, God.

Has there truly been any revelation and if so, why is it not evident to all? What is God’s purpose in being so mysterious? Is he trying to trick us?

Romans 1:21 - For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

If it’s as clear as this passage describes it, why can’t I see it? Aren’t I without excuse? To me, it seems that I am. What do you think?

I am new to the board and hope to hear something interesting from any whom feel they have something to say about it.

  • Jason
    ~Forever in Doubt of all things previously established as Truth~
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that verse was actually Romans 1:20. sorry…

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Skeptic,
those are very good questions, some of them I have asked myself.

Skeptic stated:

I cannot accept your assumption, that being that there is a God as you describe above. The God you describe above I have been hearing about my whole life and not once found a shred of evidence or even a feeling inside to believe in. But I do believe there is a higher power out there. I don’t know whether it is the ultimate power, but I do know that there IS something that communicates with us and it is a higher power. But this is just my opionion on which I have no evidence or fact, but I do have a feeling. The things I can say about this higher power will just be speculation, but you may find it interesting.

About the higher power:

  1. When we walk we do not consciously think about the exact angle, velocity, muscles, to use and how. We just think to move our LEG and our LEG moves. But the intricate parts of the LEG are not thought about, yet they receive information to act. Many would argue that this is controlled by the sub-conscious. But we know very little about the sub-conscious. Even if there is a sub-conscious, who’s to say that it isn’t a tool the higher power uses to help us out with intricate details.

  2. Coincidences. I am a firm believe in order and chaos, I guess it’s the Golden Mean principle by Aristotle. My point isn’t order and chaos, my point is the way order and chaos operate and intermingle. Throughout my studies, I have found there to be an underlying MEANING or PURPOSE to everything, even chaos. I don’t wish to go into interstellar space talk, but I wish to give some more earthly examples…ie. Say you want ask a girl out on a date. But you are the shy type. You go to school with her. You never have the guts to say anything to her. So one day at work (let’s say Blockbuster or something) she shows up to get a movie. After your shift, you go to the mall to buy a pair of jeans, and she is at the store you are in. All of a sudden, as you are watching her shop, a bunch of bad-ass teenagers start yelling and making fun of you that you are in the girl section (suppose in your staring at the girl you lost track of you location and inadvertantly walked into the girls section). These teenagers are so loud and abnoxious that the girl hears them and looks over to see the whole thing. Now, you are thinking that you are a gonner, there is no way she likes you now. But a thought of the coincidences of the day pops up in your head which gives you enough guts to look over at the girl to see her reaction…when you look over she smiles and winks at you. A bad situation gone good. How many times in our lives do we think that our lives are in the pits when things are really in the best place possible. Furthermore, have enough of these happen to you and you will come to have an understanding that there is more to these coincidences, then the word. There is meaning.

  3. Descartes Causal Adequacy Principle. You can’t get something from nothing. You cant get more from less. Although we can split an atom (a really small thing) and get a explosion like the one in Hiroshima from that atom doesn’t mean we are getting more from less. It’s a change in form, that energy was always within that atom before it was split. As Einsteins theory of relativity elucidates.

  4. Logic. The possibility of other life forms, of more sophisticated life forms (higher power) is logical. Human’s are carbon based, many theoreticians, what I like to call investors into the theory, suggest that there is a good chance there are other life forms out there that are silicon based. Should we one day find out that there are silicon based aliens, these theoreticians will go down in history. It is statistically logical as well, it doesn’t appear possible, statistically that we are the only living things in the universe. Moreover, the concept of math evolving from our minds to explain not just our world, but the universe.

  5. Some interstellar talk. How could matter come to be? The Big Bang, Cosmic Microwave Background, Relativity, Quantum Physics, all indicate great order within the universe that explain much from the first second after the big bang till now. A planet’s and star’s life cycle has a very clear cut procedure it goes through before dying. Althought the life cycle between a star and planet differ, all planets have a very similar life cycles, as all stars have a very similar life cycle. When a supernova, either type 1 or 2, is in the process - the elements that are created within the core of the star are as clear as the fact that water will boil at 100 degrees celcius. All stars last element, before exploding is iron.

Although I don’t feel I have really said anything, I must reiterate the above is just my speculation. I advise you to take only what makes sense to you from it.

What’s your take?

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Thanks for the reply Magius. Although, I think you went a little off the subject I was referring to. I am just suggesting that God has not never communicated with us or that there has never been a true divine revelation. This is, of course, assuming that there is a God. I probably should have been a little more specific in defining the debate. The debate is most commonly referred to as Theism vs. Deism.

Either way. you did suggest some interesting analysis’s (plural?) on the evidence of God.

  1. You were suggesting, I think, that our instincts must have been programmed by a higher being. This is reffered to as the teleological argument for God or also as the “intelligent maker” theory. Carl Sagan provides a wonderful argument on the subject. The ability to walk, on the contrary, is not an instinct. It is learned, unless you are suggesting that you were walking right out of the womb. :smiley: Insticts are a good argument though. Although, it has been proven that animals instincts can be bred out over generations. It’s not really part of what is defined as the unconsious either. The limbic system (together with associated brain elements like the hypothalamus) are the engine of the so-called instincts.

  2. The argument of coincidence neither proves God nor disproves him. You are inferring that a coincidence is a divine intervention or a supernatural occurence against that of the natural occurence of an event. A coincidence is just something that is beyond our comprehension. We can’t explain a seemingly unrealistic occurence, so we suggest it as above nature. Take your scenario for example. I would much rather believe that the girl winked at me because she liked me, not because God made her like me. I’m sure that she would feel the same. Great story though. Did this really happen to you? :slight_smile:

  3. Causal adequacy has nothing to do with the subject at all. Think about it. In either situation there will be an infinite amount of cause. God or no God. God may have been the originator of the finite universe but he is infinite in himself. He is not “nothing”. The other scenario is no God. Where we find an eternal cause and effect in the universe. Something did not come from nothing. It has just always been.

  4. Other lifeforms? As Brad stated on another thread, “If we assume an infinite randomness, Chance would have made our ‘here’[existence] inevitable.”

  5. Again, all of this is just a form of teleological argument, as I discussed earlier. I will not refute teleological analyses b/c it is actually one of the best arguments for the existence of an intelligent, divine being. Still the argument above in #4 refutes it.

Do you agree?

Also, reread my original statement if you would and give me your take on Deism vs. Theism. I’d love to hear your thoughts.