There Are No Ghosts

Googling “how many people have seen ghosts”…..

“Approximately 18% to 20% of Americans report having seen or been in the presence of a ghost, according to Pew Research Center and YouGov polls. These surveys indicate that, while around 41% to 45% of people believe in ghosts, a significant minority claims personal, firsthand experience with them.

  • Prevalence: Roughly 1 in 5 Americans say they have encountered a spirit or ghost.

  • Frequency: Among those who claim to have seen a ghost, reports suggest it is often a repeated experience; 22% of those who have seen a spirit report it happening five or more times.

  • Demographics & Context: In the UK, some surveys suggest even higher numbers, with up to 39% reporting sightings

    . Studies also indicate a link between experiences of supernatural presence and factors like poor sleep, according to

    Medium

    .

  • Types of Encounters: People often report seeing ghosts of people they knew (23%), people they did not know (30%), or a mix, with many perceiving these entities as neutral or good rather than evil, according to YouGov.

:hushed_face:

So tens of millions of people in just the US and UK alone, have claimed to have seen ghosts.

I am sure you have diligently investigated and proven false each one of their claims. Because confidently saying something like,

would require just that.

And no, setting up a scientific experiment to try and objectively measure ghosts, and finding nothing, does not disprove the existence of ghosts. It means you did not record or measure ghosts at that time. That is what it means. The scientific method is supposed to be open-minded. I am sure you can see how that works. Just like I bet you understand that mainstream and approved published science has a very strong bias against anything in the paranormal direction, so any actually observed or recorded instances would be 1) ignored, 2) ridiculed, 3) not published, 4) nitpicked and doubted to death, 5) actively suppressed, 6) defunded and/or researchers fired from their positions.

I am sure that an intelligent person such as yourself is able to understand all that.

I’m sure it’s pure coincidence, but that’s about the same share of the population with an IQ below 80.

It disproves the existence of ‘ghosts’ to the extent ‘ghosts’ are something we would expect to have measured at that time.

We can always find some A_2 such that the conditional " A_2 \rightarrow B " doesn’t hold. That doesn’t undo the validity of our observation that \neg B, and the conclusion that \neg A_1.

Sure, and that cuts both ways. There have been plenty of strong claims about the nature of ghosts, and those strong claims entailed testable predictions that failed to turn up. The open minded thing to do in reaction to that is to change your mind.

Nowadays, claims about ghosts are weak and muddy, because that’s the only kind of claim that can survive. But weak and muddy claims are roughly meaningless: the claim that “this thing exists in such a way that by hypothesis its existence has no measurable effect on the world” is indistinguishable from the claim “this thing does not exist”.

One explanation for that is that everything that’s ever been investigated “in the paranormal direction” has been found to be without merit. It’s not like this stuff was never taken seriously.

It’s also not like these things have been left unexplained. They’re explained by mundane quirks of human perception.

Dismissing the scientific consensus because it disagrees with your beliefs comes across as … closed-minded.

Sounds like the same argument used to beat Copernicus over the head for not believing the earth was the center of the universe. “Trust the science” doesn’t always end well.


Science is not about consensus anyway.

The scientific method is not based on consensus; rather, it is a process of testing, observation, and replication to find truth, with consensus being a potential, non-infallible outcome.”

Does your claim “ghosts do not exist” admit to being non-infallible? Was the claim that earth was the center of the universe non-infallible? Or any other of countless scientific claims that were later proven untrue?

“Scientific claims proven false often stem from early attempts to explain natural phenomena, later corrected by technological advancement and evidence-based research. Key examples include

the geocentric model of the solar system, the existence of a luminiferous aether for light propagation, and the spontaneous generation of life. These demonstrate how scientific understanding evolves.

Famous Debunked Scientific Theories & Claims

  • Geocentrism (Earth-centered Universe): Ancient and medieval belief that the sun and planets revolved around the Earth, replaced by heliocentrism.

  • Luminiferous Aether: A hypothetical, invisible substance once thought to fill space and transmit light; disproven by the Michelson-Morley experiment.

  • Spontaneous Generation: The idea that living creatures (like maggots or mice) could arise spontaneously from non-living matter.

  • Phlogiston Theory: A 17th-century theory proposing that a fire-like element called “phlogiston” was released during combustion.

  • Miasma Theory of Disease: The belief that diseases like cholera were caused by “bad air” or noxious smells, replaced by germ theory.

  • Einstein’s Static Universe: Albert Einstein’s 1917 model proposing a stationary universe, which he later abandoned after Hubble discovered the universe is expanding.

  • Martian Canals: 19th-century observations thought to be engineered canals, later proven to be optical illusions or natural geographical features.

  • Caloric Theory: The idea that heat was a self-repellent fluid called “caloric” that flowed from hotter bodies to colder ones.

  • Planet Vulcan: A supposed planet thought to exist between Mercury and the Sun to explain orbital irregularities, later explained by Einstein’s relativity.

  • Phrenology: The pseudoscientific study of skull shape as a determinant of character and mental ability.

  • Blank Slate (Tabula Rasa): The idea that individuals are born entirely without built-in mental content, ignoring genetic influence.

  • Cold Fusion (Fleischmann-Pons): A 1989 claim of achieving nuclear fusion at room temperature, which could not be replicated.

These examples highlight that scientific “truth” is provisional, relying on the best available evidence at the time.”

1 Like

Notice that I never claimed ghosts exist, nor did I claim to know either way if they exist or not. I am only pointing out your claim to know for sure that ghosts do not exist is unscientific and unjustified.

You are free to claim that to the best of your knowledge and based on the evidence and lack thereof which you have seen, you do not believe ghosts exist. Great, you will get no argument from me. But that is not what you are claiming, is it? You are claiming certain and infallible knowledge. Which tell me you are not as much of a scientifically-minded person as you seem to think you are.

.
I have had visitations from a few relatives who passed away by dubious means, but not in physical form but spiritual..

[I have an above-average IQ :nerd_face:

1 Like

This is an accurate statement.

(I used a lot of single-quotes below, and want to clarify up front that I’m not trying to be cheeky or offish, my intent there is to flag words that I think are problematic, e.g. ‘know’, ‘prove’.)
(My double-quotes are meant to be cheeky.)

Sure, science fails regularly, but that isn’t an argument in favor of any particular claim.

Again, we can be as skeptical as we want. We can turn it up to 11 and doubt if we have hands, we can turn it up a little less and question how much we can trust the findings of thousands of independent investigations over hundreds of years.

But note that when we do the latter, every item on your list of “Famous Debunked Scientific Theories & Claims” is suddenly viable again. We only know that those beliefs were wrong because we take their debunking to be trustworthy.

Scientific consensus can be wrong, but the existence of a scientific consensus is strong evidence that that concensus is correct.

Fair enough, but you’re mistaken, and your own evidence shows it. Each of your favorite AI’s Famous Debunked Scientific Theories & Claims is a ‘negative’ that was ‘proven’ by science. We can ‘know’ that those Theories & Claims have been Debunked by science, and therefore the claim to ‘know’ things to be disproven can be scientific and justified.

I am claiming empirical, scientific knowledge: To the extent that science and empiricism can produce ‘knowledge’, we ‘know’ that ghosts don’t exist. That is not a claim of infallibility, only of high confidence.

Another great Debunked Scientific Theory is N-rays: Scientists saw a change in brightness in a detector, and attributed the change to a new type of light. But there was no change in brightness, they just saw what they expected to see.

Whatever you saw, your experience admits of explanations other than ghosts, and it’s a failure of imagination if you can’t think of any.

1 Like

Again, I am not disagreeing with this. And this is not the point you are making.

The point you are making is that you KNOW for 100% certainty that ghosts do not exist. And your reason for “knowing” this is, as you said, scientific consensus.

That is what I am objecting to.

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying this. So you do admit that ghosts might exist. I am glad we could finally agree :+1:

I think we’re just disagreeing over what it means to ‘know’. Is there anything you would say you do know? It doesn’t seem like your point is just that all knowledge claims are false, but I don’t know what you’re trying to distinguish my claim from.

I don’t think claiming to ‘know’ something means “100% certainty”. The skeptical position is technically correct that I may be mistaken about all my beliefs – I think Descartes wasn’t skeptical enough, because a demon that can deceive my senses can also deceive my reasoning.

But I know my name. I know my phone number. I know I’m awake and alive and typing on my computer. Those claims are meaningful, and true, despite that skepticism makes an irrefutable argument that I may be mistaken about them.

So, for all practical purposes, I ‘know’ that ghosts do not exist.

A more formal way to think of it is in terms of “justified true belief”:
I believe that ghosts don’t exist
My belief is well justified.
So if my belief is true, then I know that ghosts don’t exist, and if it is false, then I don’t know.

It doesn’t follow from that that I don’t know.

It’s possible a second-order knowledge claim follows – I don’t know that I know – but I’m not sure about that, similar reasoning seems to work. I guess it depends on how deeply justified my belief is, e.g. a justified belief based on justified beliefs based on justified beliefs … based on not-well-enough justified beliefs.

Am I more justified in believing that I have hands, or in believing that Descartes demon is a live possibility?

You do not know ghosts do not exist in the same way you know a 1000 foot tall elephant does not exist, or that you know what a sandwich is, or that water is good for you to drink, or that the sky looks blue, or any number of a million other things that we know from direct experience or logic.

I suppose you might say you know that Jupiter is a planet in our solar system in the same way you know ghosts do not exist, since both beliefs are generally supported by science and not verifiable for yourself. Then again you can get a telescope and look at Jupiter in the night sky sometimes. Of course that doesn’t prove it is really what science says it is or that their knowledge is infallible about it.

You at least admit that ghosts could be real. Your standard is to believe whatever science is saying in terms of consensus. How many scientists do you think believe in the existence of ghosts? It is more than zero. But consensus, as long as the majority say something you will align yourself to it. That leaves a person vulnerable to when the consensus is wrong, or strongly motivated to cover up certain things.

If most scientific funding comes from the government directly or indirectly, and there are certain outcomes of research that are praised and rewarded while others are discouraged or disparaged and can lead to the loss of your funding and your loss of respect in your field, do you think that acts as a powerful motivator and incentive structure affecting research results and who gets published? If you admit to this, how do you personally deal with this fact when it comes to you blindly believing in scientific consensus?

For myself, I don’t really care about the scientific consensus so much as I trust my own beliefs and logic and experiences. Those are number 1 for me, scientific consensus is number 2 at best. The issue of ghosts is interesting because it is not some little fringe thing, like asking how many people have seen unicorns in their life. While the answer to that is non-zero too, and would be interesting to follow up about, the issue of ghosts is orders of magnitude greater. We are talking about significant percentages of the human population across the entire planet. Going back throughout history. Across cultures and religions and races and age and belief systems. You are comfortable dismissing all of that because scientific consensus says it is not true, that is up to you. I am not comfortable dismissing it. So just like with the case of Jupiter, which I fully acknowledge might not exist or might exist differently than what science tells us, I also acknowledge ghosts might be real. Do I know they are real? No. Do I believe they are real? Yes I think it is more likely than not that something about ghosts is real, although we probably do not understand it very well.

In terms of reasons why ghosts and experiencing them might not be more common, here are a few reasons. Remember that each one of these by itself acts as a reason or cause to dismiss the experience, so adding all of these up together means the burden of going from “people are experiencing ghosts” to “you hear about it in a way that is validating and makes sense to you personally as being true” is almost impossible to happen even if ghosts are actually real and some people really are experiencing them:

(Hint, this thought experiment requires you to assume for the sake of argument that ghosts are in fact real and that some people do in fact experience ghosts for real),

Physical limitations: if ghosts are real, they are probably somewhat rare to experience. Whatever causes a ghost to appear to us is something dependent on combination of unlikely causes, and seems to occur only for brief moments of time. Additional physical limitation is that ghosts seem to be somewhat averse to being recorded by electronic instruments such as cameras, although EVPs may have more luck. But in any case it is physically more difficult to record a ghost than it is to record normal physical objects.

Mental bias: the mind tends to dismiss things that are far outside of its comprehension. Even if you did experience a ghost, your brain would probably try to refuse to see or acknowledge it, or later you would likely believe it was a hallucination or dream.

Social bias: if you tell someone you saw a ghost, most of them will laugh at you or think you are crazy or stupid. Just like how you insulted everyone who believes they saw a ghost as “low IQ”, that dismissive insulting attitude is commonplace. This acts as another reason why, even if someone did experience a ghost for real, they are not likely to talk about it.

Media bias: even if someone overcomes the previous three limitations and talks about their experience of seeing a ghost, media publications and news are not going to report it or will report on it only in a short and often dismissive way.

Scientific bias: the scientific community is not going to take this seriously. If a scientist does a study that seems to give evidence for ghosts, the rest of the scientific establishment will dismiss it out of hand and that scientist may lose his reputation, funding or position. Adding in the physical limitations from the first point here, this adds another layer of difficulty with replicating results, which is exacerbated because the amount of research being done in this area is very very small to begin with.

Government bias: even if scientists managed to produce convincing research about the existence of ghosts, it is likely the government would act to suppress or ban this from public knowledge. Paranormal or psychic phenomenon would be considered, if believed to be true, something inherently powerful and needing to be controlled and managed by the authorities. They do not want people believing in crazy things that make them harder to control, and the government also acts to limit what we know of in reality. There are tons of examples of the government covering up research, think what they did to Tesla’s research when he died. If the government realized ghosts were real they would most likely do their best to cover this up from the public and study it in secret for their own purposes.

You would need to pass through each one of those limits, and consistently over time for large numbers of people, to finally have a situation where someone like you would live in a world where it makes sense for you to admit to the existence of ghosts. The scientific consensus, media, government, social attitudes, and physical limitations would all need to be on your side. But instead, they are all against you. It makes sense why you do not believe in ghosts, especially since you have seemingly not experienced a ghost for yourself.

For me, I am open minded enough to understand the logic of the setup and situation. I combine the layers of barriers or limits I just explained, with the fact that these are multiplicative and not merely additive (all of the limits would need to be overcome for ghosts to become reasonably believed in by you), along with the sheer huge number of people who had these experiences and the consistency of many of the experiences, and combine that with many of the personal first hand reports I have heard or read about people experiencing ghosts seem very believable and cannot easily be dismissed by appealing to hallucination, drugs or other factors like that.

I also think the idea of ghosts makes logical sense. At least it is not logically impossible, and it seems absurd to me to believe there is nothing after death and nothing at all to anything spiritual or non-physical, as if everything we see or measure with our material instruments is all that exists. Like with the electromagnetic spectrum we experience just a small area of it. Reality does not need to limit itself to our perceptions or beliefs, and in fact many people have reported seeing ghosts anyway so the argument could be that it is foolish to automatically dismiss that out of hand by calling all of those people liars or crazy.

That is the basis for my view. I take all of the above points together and come to the objective, unbias conclusion that ghosts could certainly be real and in fact based on the totality of all of the above points taken together it seems likely to me that something exists which is what people call ghosts. I don’t know what that thing is, I don’t even know that it really does exist. But I am not prepared to claim knowledge that it does not exist, because that would require me to dismiss all of the above points and call every single person who says they saw a ghost either a liar or crazy. Which I am not prepared to do. I have no personal motivation to align with the scientific community nor to believe it should be followed unquestioningly, I have seen too many examples of its errors and its biases, shady practices stemming from improper incentives and funding needs. Money runs modern science, the big doners and big institutions and big government control the purse strings and so they will tend to get the results they want.

I will believe what scientific consensus says when it makes sense to me and when I do not see a lot of institutional bias and reasons why that consensus might be manipulated or incentivized in a certain direction.

And you might be surprised there are a lot of scientists who do believe in ghosts, and who are still doing and reviewing research into the subject:

https://www.spr.ac.uk/publicationsrecordingswebevents/recordings-spr-events-audio-video

Of course they may not be comfortable sharing their results with everyone, because they happen to live in a world and climate that is made up of people like you. People who will dismiss and mock them before taking the time and patience and neutrality to think about and look at the idea seriously. Which again is not me saying that I know they are right. But it is me saying that you and people like you are a barrier to this knowledge being widely accepted and known if indeed it does happen to be true.

I like your knowledge “in the same way” framing, that’s a useful way to think about our disagreement, and we don’t disagree as much as it initially seemed.

I take you to suggest several bases for knowing something: logic, direct experience, trusted sources, or some combination of these. I also take you to imply that the way you know something is somehow related to the basis on which you know it: You know the sky is blue because you’ve directly experienced the color of the sky; you know a 1000 foot tall elephant does not exist because you’ve deduced it from what you know about elephants, animals, physics, etc.; you know Jupiter’s a planet because people and institutions you trust says it’s so.

I’m not sure if you’d agree, but I’d argue there’s no simple hierarchy between these bases: If I see the walls melting, and a doctor tells me that they aren’t melting and that I’ve been poisoned, I might say that I ‘know’ that the walls are not melting, favoring logic and a trusted source over my direct experience. That said, we often favor our own experiences over trusted sources, and people usually have a preference between logic and direct experience.

There are two ways to interpret your ‘ways of knowing’, and I’m not sure if they are synonymous:

  • Ways of knowing are about confidence: We’re more confident that the sky is blue than we are that Jupiter is a planet.
  • Ways of knowing are about skepticism: To doubt that the sky is blue, we have to doubt our experience, our memory, and the integrity of every source that’s ever used the blueness of the sky as the Truest and Most-Known Thing; to doubt that Jupiter is a planet, we’d have to doubt the integrity of the scientific establishment.

Both seem like a matter of degree rather than of kind. In that sense, I know ghosts don’t exist in roughly the same way that I know that Jupiter is a planet. I’m not sure which I’m more confident of, and discovering that either one of them is false should make me much less confident of the other. But it should make me less confident in there not being 1000 ft tall elephants too, since that’s also partly based on knowledge from trusted sources.


No, that is not what ‘scientific consensus’ means. A scientific consensus requires a supermajority of experts in the relevant domain to agree, based on significant investigation and debate. Other indicators are when the experts who disagree tend to disagree in nuanced ways, and would agree with a more moderately stated but directionally-similar version of the conclusion.

And yeah, when the people who know the most about a question agree on the answer, I take that as strong evidence that their answer is correct – not infallible, but very strong.

It’s really uncommon for a claim on which there’s a scientific consensus to be controversial among non-scientists. When they are controversial, there’s usually an identifiable reason with poor epistemic merit: a findings conflict with widely held religious beliefs, e.g.evolution; a finding has negative policy implications for powerful people, e.g. climate change; or malfeasance or misinformation create the impression that the scientific consensus is less certain than it is, e.g. vaccines.

They’re proven wrong even less frequently. Of the debunked theories you presented earlier, I think only luminiferous ether was arguably a scientific consensus. It’s most common in medicine, but I think the degree of consensus there is exaggerated by the fact that doctors need to try to save lives, so experts are more often forced to choose.

I don’t think I’m dismissing anything. People have long had experiences that they’ve explained by reference to ghosts/spirits/demons/gods/angels/whatever. I don’t doubt those experiences, I’m not claiming the people reporting them are liars or fools. But I am rejecting their explanations of what they experienced in terms of pre-scientific folklore, in favor of explanations in terms of how we otherwise know the world and the mind to work.

We know that people do hallucinate, we readily see faces in or attribute agency to inanimate objects, we miss our diseased loved ones and can remember them vividly, we interpret what we experience based on whatever on our minds. We’re prone to superstition. Our thoughts are less linear and neat than we typically notice, and our brains and senses use a lot of shortcuts to hide their limitations. We can evoke these phenomena in a laboratory setting.

We know that these explanations are true a lot of the time, because we have plenty of examples of them. So even if there were ghosts, we would still know that a lot of the time when people claim they’ve seen a ghost, they’re mistaken.

We can imagine a world in which real ghosts exist and figure out what would need to be true in order for that world to exist. But the grand conspiracy, that requires hypothesizing a media complex that will not report on the existence of ghosts and a government that doesn’t want its people to believe in spirits – for all of that to be true, so much else about the world would have to be so much different from how it appears. And all that would still not explain all the ghost sightings, because presumably all the explanations we have great evidence for would still explain all the ghost sightings we can show them to explain.

Sure. Pareidolia exists. Hallucinations exist. Apophenia exists. Optical illusions exist. Agent detection bias exists. False memories exist. Subconscious perception exists.

What we know about how damage to the brain changes the mind makes the existence of an incorporeal human mind incoherent in the way that a 1000-foot elephant is incoherent. That strongly suggests we do not survive death.

It’s a separate question whether there are aspects of reality we don’t currently have access too. But we’re talking about aspects of reality that we clearly do have access to (because people claim to see/hear/feel them), so it seems irrelevant for present purposes.

I’m sorry about that, it was unfair and uncalled for, and I should not have said it.

But you did say it and now that you did, that leads to think of an uncertainty, that may or may not present a subordinate feeling of slight , but of course manageable mind control.

Can’t live with that cause such diminishing control of the mind may be feared to an ultimate loss.

Most people imagine philosophers as rational thinkers who spend their time developing abstract logical theories and strongly reject superstitious beliefs. But several 20th-century philosophers actively investigated topics such as clairvoyance, telepathy – even ghosts.

Many of these philosophers, including (my favorite) Henri Bergson were interested in what was called “psychical research. This was the academic study of paranormal phenomena and other-worldly spirits.

This academic psychical research had a significant influence on an entire generation of British philosophers. It shaped their views on time, causation and matter, and gave them an opportunity to think about one of life’s most pressing questions: what happens after we die?

I was a sceptic until I experienced an ‘encounter’. My explanation for this, it was a stressful time in my life and perhaps I was vulnerable, but the question for me still remains, there has been no satisfactory explanation for any of it.

.

I weren’t expecting to see anything lol.. one was a white swirling cloud-like visitation, two were activities of the ‘paranormalkind.

I’ve recently had two :victory_hand:t3: paranormal phenomenal occurrences, of the telepathic kind.

Go me! :banana_dance:
.

Can you rephrase that please, as I can’t quite figure out what you mean.. it’s a failure of imagination if I can’t think of any ‘what’?

Of what? That is the case of an unthinking over imaginative set of circumstances which even Edgar Casey could ill define? That moves one to come here to this point?

How can one ask it, if it can not even be defined.

.

What!?
.

You :index_pointing_up:t3:

And yet they do. Enter into the unlearned lessons which have at times were determinative that they should, must enter. If it wasn’t for fools how could the wise not suffer accordingly? (Cayce) was gonna post something along these lines but was thought better of it not to.

.
I weren’t talking to you.

Find a new victim to troll, dear..

Ah, You noticed.

Just up to ‘our’ image.

Other than that, what are vampires good for anyway!?!

.
How dull you are, but how profound you think you are..

Toodles