Some true things cannot be proven. I can’t prove that one. I don’t expect you to accept it without justification.
So, there is only one original intelligence. - could you connect that statement to my post?
Presentation of personhood means Turing Test?
During the Turing Test? In general. Were you disagreeing with something? Did I assert that there was harm?
Could you rephrase your original response? I’m not sure what it means.
We’re all artificial. Stop being meat-machine-ist.
Or mebbe just machinist.
How was I meat-machinist in a post where I was telling Iambiguous what that character in the film meant?
You decided it was / they were a mere invention/object.
Sentient consciousness is not an invention, we are human/persons in the image of original personhood. Human-made artificial intelligence, if conscious, is not an invention — it is reverse engineering.
OK. I’ve already said this. Please read this carefully.
Iamb had a quote said by a character in a movie. I was explaining what that character meant, since he indicated he didn’t understand what that character meant.
and if it’s not conscious, did not they reverse engineer anyway from neuronal systems and that’s what makes them seem so sentient?
.
You seemed stunned that anyone might have some trouble understanding what you meant. However, was not clear at all.
You attributed beliefs to me that were those of a movie character, which added to the confusion.
I wish you luck suing
the inventors of Velcro when you represent burdock burrs.
the inventors of airplanes when you represent birds.
the inventors of helicopters when you represent dragonflies and maple seeds.
the inventors of sonar when you represent bats.
the inventors of radar echolocation systems when you represent bats.
the inventors of the Shinkansen bullet train nose when you represent kingfishers.
the inventors of dry adhesive climbing pads when you represent geckos.
the inventors of drag-reducing swimsuits when you represent sharks.
the inventors of antibacterial textured surfaces when you represent shark skin.
the inventors of self-cleaning paint when you represent lotus leaves.
the inventors of waterproof fabrics when you represent lotus leaves.
the inventors of passive cooling skyscrapers when you represent termite mounds.
the inventors of tubercled wind turbine blades when you represent humpback whales.
the inventors of efficient aircraft wing bumps when you represent humpback whales.
the inventors of synthetic spider silk when you represent spiders.
the inventors of vibration-detecting sensor webs when you represent spiders.
the inventors of artificial neural networks when you represent the human brain.
the inventors of deep learning systems when you represent the cerebral cortex.
the inventors of genetic algorithms when you represent evolution.
the inventors of swarm robotics when you represent ants and bees.
the inventors of ant colony optimization software when you represent ants.
the inventors of distributed hive decision systems when you represent bees.
the inventors of coordinated drone swarms when you represent schools of fish.
the inventors of flocking algorithms when you represent birds.
the inventors of evolutionary computation when you represent natural selection.
the inventors of neural prosthetics when you represent nervous systems.
the inventors of cochlear implants when you represent the human ear.
the inventors of artificial retinas when you represent eyes.
the inventors of compound-eye cameras when you represent insects.
the inventors of anti-reflective coatings when you represent moth eyes.
the inventors of silent turbine blades when you represent owls.
the inventors of quiet fan blades when you represent owls.
the inventors of cat-eye road reflectors when you represent cats.
the inventors of desert water storage systems when you represent camels.
the inventors of atmospheric moisture recovery systems when you represent camel nostrils.
the inventors of streamlined torpedoes when you represent penguins.
the inventors of agile underwater robots when you represent tuna.
the inventors of efficient submarine hulls when you represent dolphins.
the inventors of soft robotics when you represent octopuses.
the inventors of flexible robotic manipulators when you represent elephant trunks.
the inventors of rapid-closing trap mechanisms when you represent Venus flytraps.
the inventors of humidity-responsive materials when you represent pinecones.
the inventors of passive gliding seed drones when you represent seed pods.
the inventors of autorotating drones when you represent maple seeds.
the inventors of hook-and-loop fastening systems when you represent burdock seeds.
the inventors of underwater glue when you represent mussels.
the inventors of surgical adhesives when you represent mussels.
the inventors of lightweight structural engineering when you represent bones.
the inventors of honeycomb aerospace panels when you represent bees.
the inventors of hollow support beams when you represent bird bones.
I mean, the reverse engineerers.
…you seem to have put a lot of effort into your reply.
[ insert list so long you won’t read it ]
…you seem to be responding to my post.
Infinity
“Everything measurable passes, everything that can be counted has an end. Only three things are infinite: the sky in its stars, the sea in its drops of water, and the heart in its tears.” Gustave Flaubert
Not to mention, well, you tell me.
“Who was it who said, ‘I hold the buying of more books than one can per adventure read, as nothing less than the soul’s reaching towards infinity; which is the only thing that raises us above the beasts that perish?’" A. Edward Newton
It wasn’t me, that’s for sure.
“Infinity is as far as your imagination stretches, and then some." Iain Cameron Williams.
And then some more. If only all the way to the grave.
“How can we satisfy ourselves without going on in infinitum? And, after all, what satisfaction is there in that infinite progression? Let us remember the story of the Indian philosopher and his elephant. It was never more applicable than to the present subject. If the material world rests upon a similar ideal world, this ideal world must rest upon some other; and so on, without end. It were better, therefore, never to look beyond the present material world.” David Hume
On the other hand, you still have to live in that world existentially…day after day after day.
“The sum of things to be known is inexhaustible, and however long we read, we shall never come to the end of our story-book." A.E. Housman
Really? Let’s run this then by the moral and political objectivists among us.
“Scientifically, I know beginnings don’t exist. The world is made of energy, which is neither created or destroyed. Everything she is was here before me. Everything she was will remain. Her existence touches both my past and my future at one point- infinity.
Lifelines aren’t lines at all. They are more like circles.
It’s safe to start anywhere and the story will curve its way back to the starting point. Eventually.
In other words, it doesn’t matter where I begin. It doesn’t change the end.” Shannon Lee Alexander
For starters, let’s run this by the Trump administration.
Stupidity
“When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It’s only painful & difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid.” Philippe Geluck
Ouch, let’s say.
“Only idiots are confident. It requires a great amount of wisdom and knowledge to be confused.” Abhishek Leela Pandey
On the other hand [of course], how confident is he in that?
“I told them all in brief what had happened, with Meg occasionally adding helpful comments like, ‘He was stupid,’ and, ‘He was more stupid,’ and ‘He did good; then he got stupid again.’” Rick Riordan
Let’s invite Meg to…post here?
“I was so amazed at your stupidity that words failed me.” Natsuki Takaya
And it has now been years at last count.
“There is nothing more annoying than somebody who is really thick but who believes with absolute conviction that he is more intelligent than you.” Karl Wiggins
Don’t get me started!
You too?
“Fools, as it has long been said, are indeed separated, soon or eventually, from their money. So, alas, are those who, responding to a general mood of optimism, are captured by a sense of their own financial acumen. Thus it has been for centuries; thus in the long future it will also be.” John Kenneth Galbraith
Also, “Fools, as it has long been said, are indeed separated, soon or eventually, from their philosophy.”
Infinite stupidity.
Communism
“The first duty of a man is to think for himself.” Jose Marti
Or else?
“Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.” Vladimir Lenin
Next up: wage slave owners.
“You show me a capitalist, and I’ll show you a bloodsucker.” Malcom X
Next up: the Nation of Islam.
The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end.” Leon Trotsky
That part again!
“How do you tell a Communist? Well, it’s someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It’s someone who understands Marx and Lenin.” Ronald Reagan
New thread?
“Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workingmen of all countries unite!” Karl Marx
Nope, not so far.
Determinism
“Man is not fully conditioned and determined but rather determines himself whether he gives in to conditions or stands up to them. In other words, man is ultimately self-determining. Man does not simply exist but always decides what his existence will be, what he will become in the next moment.” Viktor E. Frankl
All the way up to the Holocaust.
“Historical determinism is a recipe for political quietism.” Terry Eagleton
“Quietism is a doctrine that emphasizes passive contemplation, inner stillness, and the suppression of personal will to achieve spiritual or mental peace.” Enough said?
“There are but few important events in the affairs of men brought about by their own choice.” Ulysses S. Grant
If any?
“The assumption of an absolute determinism is the essential foundation of every scientific inquiry.” Max Planck
The fool?
“The physical universe was a language with a perfectly ambiguous grammar. Every physical event was an utterance that could be parsed in two entirely different ways, one casual and the other teleological, both valid, neither one disqualifiable no matter how much context was available.” Ted Chiang
Let’s bring this down out of the philosophical clouds. If – click – that is even possible, of course.
“Libet’s EEG experiments suggest that we might not have free will. If the results of the experiment are to be believed, then what is the point? What is the fun if everything is determined?” Abhaidev
Philosophy and…fun?
Hypocrisy
“My blasphemy will delight God more than your hypocrisy.” Tomichan Matheikal
Well, if He can tell the difference.
“Things always look ugly on other people, but the truth is, we all start as other people. The sad part is we usually die as other people. And worst of all, we never knew we were the other people all along.” Karl Kristian Flores
On the other hand, huh?
“I quite sympathize with the rage of the English democracy against what they call the vices of the upper orders. The masses feel that drunkenness, stupidity, and immorality should be their own special property and that if any one of us makes an ass of himself he is poaching on their preserves.” Oscar Wilde
You get this don’t you?
“Most of us get turned on at night by the very things that we’ll demonstrate against during the day.” Esther Perel
Bummer.
“After plans had been drawn up by British intelligence to sabotage ships bringing Jewish refugees to Palestine - and pin blame on an apparently powerful but non-existent Arab organization - the British took more direct action… It was clear that Britain would stop at nothing to maintain its interests abroad- and think nothing of others in the process.” Peter Frankopan
Well, after all, they are God’s chosen people, right?
“She says there may be a lot of them, but they’re the same stupid white women who thought pussyhats could overthrow the government. They’re complacent narcissists used to publishing unreadable papers and letting men do their dirty work. She says when it comes to blood, they’ll be worthless.” Gretchen Felker-Martin
Just for the record: Pussyhat - Wikipedia
The Sopranos
Anthony Soprano: You know where I was yesterday when you called?
Dr Jennifer Melfi: I don’t know.
Anthony Soprano: I was outside a whorehouse, while a guy that works for me was inside beating the shit out of a guy that owes me money. Broke his arm. Put a bullet in his kneecap.
Dr Jennifer Melfi: How’d that make you feel?
Anthony Soprano: Wished it was me in there.
Dr Jennifer Melfi: Giving the beating or taking it?
Uh, too close to call?
Anthony Soprano: All due respect, you got no fuckin’ idea what it’s like to be Number One. Every decision you make affects every facet of every other fuckin’ thing. It’s too much to deal with almost. And in the end you’re completely alone with it all.
*Next up: Number One here.
Christopher: Fear knocked on the door. Faith answered. There was no one there.
Go figure?
Anthony Soprano: Sil, break it down for 'em. What two businesses have been recession-proof since time immemorial?
[Silvio Dante: Certain aspects of show business and our thing.
His thing: https://youtu.be/Bm03vt8tkdc?si=T-IliZjD2sPLEK3c
Anthony Soprano: Which one of the twelve steps you on now?
Christopher Moltisanti: [just out of drug rehab]: The only one I haven’t exactly done is go around to all the people I fucked over while I was using and apologize.
Anthony Soprano: …maybe you shouldn’t do that one. Let sleeping dogs lie.
Christopher Moltisanti: That’s what I was thinking.
A no brainer, let’s call it.
Anthony Soprano: If you can quote the rules, then you can obey them.
And, of course, the equivalent of that here.
Quantum Physics
“In modern physics, there is no such thing as ‘nothing.’ Even in a perfect vacuum, pairs of virtual particles are constantly being created and destroyed. The existence of these particles is no mathematical fiction. Though they cannot be directly observed, the effects they create are quite real. The assumption that they exist leads to predictions that have been confirmed by experiment to a high degree of accuracy.” Richard Morris
So, for all practical purposes, you tell me.
“Consciousness is not just the interaction of neurotransmitters in the brain; it has also some quantum cosmic component.” Amit Ray
So, for all practical purposes, you tell me.
“There are many, many, many worlds branching out at each moment you become aware of your environment and then make a choice.” Kevin Michel
This part in my view: https://youtu.be/bLE3b7aIZdQ?si=-tYzIyMtKhgnG-d0
"Sometimes the public says, ‘What’s in it for Numero Uno? Am I going to get better television reception? Am I going to get better Internet reception?’ Well, in some sense, yeah all the wonders of quantum physics were learned basically from looking at atom-smasher technology. But let me let you in on a secret: We physicists are not driven to do this because of better color television. That’s a spin-off. We do this because we want to understand our role and our place in the universe.” Michio Kaku
As though, going back to the Big Bang – or God? – that’s even possible.
“This is what makes the subatomic world unique. It possesses not just physical qualities, but also energetic qualities. In truth, matter on a subatomic level exists as a momentary phenomenon. It’s so elusive that it constantly appears and disappears, appearing into three dimensions—in time and space—and disappearing into nothing—into the quantum field, in no space, no time— transforming from particle (matter) to wave (energy), and vice versa. But where do particles go when they vanish into thin air? Joe Dispenza
A trick question, no doubt.
“While futurists imagine multiple possible futures, quantum physicists research multiple present realities.” Roger Spitz
Let’s hope that the past clears this all up.
Chaos
“There is no such thing as human nature, for human beings make themselves up as they go along. They create themselves, as poets create poems. There is no such thing as the nature of the state or the nature of society to be understood—there is only a historical sequence of relatively successful and relatively unsuccessful attempts to achieve some combination of order and justice.” Richard Rorty
Ironically, as it were.
“To master chaos, one must relinquish mastery.” Leszek Mazurek
How hard can that be?
“He may not know how the world is supposed to work, but he’s sure this isn’t it. There is supposed to be an order to it, a definition in the chaos.” T.J. Klune
Cue the clouds!
“I am a great friend of chaos. It’s all we have … this whole concept of being able to manage life… life is risk, life is chance, life is being open to chance. The best things in my life, and probably in anybody’s life, come out of being open to being blown off course.” Tilda Swinton
She may well have written the book here.
“There’s beauty in the chaos, if you know where to look for it.” T.J. Klune
Let’s consider that a challenge and find it here.
“Survival isn’t a straight line, it’s messy. The body’s on strike, the mind doesn’t know if it’s losing or winning, and you’re stuck in the middle just trying to make sense of it. They say healing is supposed to be linear but it’s not, it’s chaos and contradictions, like trying to solve a math problem when half the numbers are missing. And still inside that disorder there’s a strange clarity, because the real victory isn’t beating the illness, it’s showing up anyway, it’s laughing when nothing feels funny, it’s finding love in the moments that don’t add up. I don’t know if I’m really getting better, maybe that’s the point, maybe it’s not about better or worse at all, maybe it’s just about showing up in the middle of the chaos and realizing that’s kind of beautiful too.” Jonathan Harnisch
Too optimistic for some, too pessimistic for others.
Solitude
“Many people suffer from the fear of finding oneself alone, and so they don’t find themselves at all.” Rollo May
Me? Nope. Still fractured and fragmented. Why? Just lucky I guess.
“Solitude was my only consolation - deep, dark, deathlike solitude.” Mary W. Shelley
Tell me about it. Or would you like me to tell you.
“I’ll read my books and I’ll drink coffee and I’ll listen to music and I’ll bolt the door.” J.D. Salinger
I taught him that.
“I never said, ‘I want to be alone.’ I only said ‘I want to be let alone!’ There is all the difference.” Greta Garbo
All the fucking difference in the world for starters.
“To be left alone is the most precious thing one can ask of the modern world.” Anthony Burgess
Let’s run this by the droogs here.
“There are days when solitude is a heady wine that intoxicates you with freedom, others when it is a bitter tonic, and still others when it is a poison that makes you beat your head against the wall.” Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette
Yes.
Rationalism
“Is God the ultimate mystery, or the ultimate answer? If you can’t understand God, why would you worship him? You have, by your admission, no idea what you are worshiping. In fact, it’s clear from the history of Abrahamism that billions of people have worshiped the Devil and called him God. They would of course not have made this fatal error if they had understood God.” Rob Armstrong
Your God, I’m guessing.
“Premodern traditions of knowledge such as Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Confucianism asserted that everything that is important to know about the world was already known. When modern culture admitted that there were many important things that it still did not know, and when that admission of ignorance was married to the idea that scientific discoveries could give us new powers, people began suspecting that real progress might be possible after all.” Yuval Noah Harari
They still do, of course. And the good news being that merely believing what they do “in their head” about religion is what makes it true.
“In this task of freeing my mind of superstitions, Ivekananda was of great help to me. The religion that he preached——including his conception of Yogawas based on a rational philosophy, on the Vedanta, and his conception of Vedanta was not antagonistic to, but was based on, scientific principles” Subhas Chandra Bose
Can anyone really doubt this?
“It is clearly the result, not of carelessness but of matured judgement of our age, which will no longer rest satisfied with the mere appearance of knowledge. It is, at the same time, a powerful appeal to reason to undertake anew the most difficult of its tasks, namely that of self-knowledge, and to institute a court of appeal which should protect reason in its rightful claims, but dismiss all groundless pretensions, and to do this not by the means of despotic decrees but according to the eternal and unalterable laws of reason. This court of appeal is no other than the critique of pure reason itself.” Immanuel Kant
Serious philosophy, let’s call it.
“Even if someone were to write extensively about economics, as Karl Marx did in ‘Das Kapital,’ the truth is that, ultimately, ‘the reality of the world is determined not by economics, but in the last instance by genetics.’” Maitreya Maitreyan
Or, if you count memes, the next to last instance.
“They were bright, confident and fervently dedicated to the cause. Rationalism had become something of a religion to them. It provided purpose, structure and philosophy without all the bells and incense or blood turned to wine.” Tarquin Hall
Until they bump into someone like me?
Faith
“Disbelief is more resistant than faith because it is sustained by the senses.” Gabriel García Márquez
Not to mention all the stuff I point out. Though to no avail of course.
“I’m in a band. I don’t go to church every Sunday. I love punk rock music. Sometimes I use swear words a lot. I respect and admire gay men and women. I’m obsessed with horror films. I know what shame feels like. And guess what old man? Jesus is still my Savior" Hayley Williams
Does Jesus know that?
“Challenge a person’s beliefs, and you challenge his dignity, standing, and power. And when those beliefs are based on nothing but faith, they are chronically fragile. No one gets upset about the belief that rocks fall down as opposed to up, because all sane people can see it with their own eyes. Not so for the belief that babies are born with original sin or that God exists in three persons or that Ali is the second-most divinely inspired man after Muhammad. When people organize their lives around these beliefs, and then learn of other people who seem to be doing just fine without them–or worse, who credibly rebut them–they are in danger of looking like fools. Since one cannot defend a belief based on faith by persuading skeptics it is true, the faithful are apt to react to unbelief with rage, and may try to eliminate that affront to everything that makes their lives meaningful.” Steven Pinker
On the other hand, here, the more things change, the more they stay [more or less] the same.
"My father taught me that you can you read a hundred books on wisdom and write a hundred books on wisdom, but unless you apply what you learned then it’s only words on a page. Life is not lived with intentions, but action.” Shannon Alder
Sound familiar? And, really, what if it is actually true. Mr. Objectivist?
“The word I think of is precarious. I am struck by how precarious it all is. How the things that hold us are only as strong as the faith we have in them.” David Levithan
And there are literally any number among us who wouldn’t have it any other way.
“Faith is why I’m here today and faith is why I made it through.” Jonathan Anthony Burkett
For some sure. And, of course, all up and down the moral, political and religious spectrum.
Elmore Leonard
Do you want me to tell you what I give a shit about at age sixty-five’, Cullen said, ‘and what I don’t give a shit about?’
New fucking thread, right?
I won’t read a book that starts with a description of the weather. I don’t read books over 300 pages, though I’ll make an exception for Don Delillo.
Different folks, different strokes. Then repeat as necessary.
In the light of eternity, is it better to sell out and ride or stand up and walk?
Yes, of course, obviously.
Don’t interrupt a man when he’s giving himself hell. Elmore Leonard
Actually, for some, I encourage it.
He sat in the living room in the dark, an expert at waiting, a nineteen-year veteran of it, waiting for people who failed to appear, missed court dates because they forgot or didn’t care, and took off. Nineteen years of losers, repeat offenders in and out of the system. Another one, that’s all Louis was, slipping back into the life.
And what life might that be, he wondered.
Tony was a lawyer, so you had to accept the fact he was opinionated and full of shit.
Next up: Tony was a philosopher.